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Different headcode systems intercompatability.

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nw1

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According to the SEG book on the topic (Southern Electric Two-character Headcodes/Rick Squirrell) the change over was in 1985: 23 had previously been short workings south of Tonbridge/T wells, and 33 became Cannon St-T Wells.

Ah ok - thanks. Mind you I remember Charing X - T Wells being 30 in 1987, which might suggest Cannon St - T Wells was 31 (or might not?)
Not sure if there ever were any Cannon St - T Wells shorts, as the peak extra trains that terminated there (certainly in slam-door EMU days) were all (or almost all) ex-Charing X.
 
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Deepgreen

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In 1965 52 was Waterloo-Aldershot/Farnham.

But 52 was also Portsmouth/Fareham-Winchester/Basingstoke/ Reading.

Most cross country loco hauled trains to/from Portsmouth ran via Eastleigh because the gradients were easier. The same applied to excursion traffic.

On the Pompey Direct Witley-Haslemere and Rowlands Castle-Buriton Tunnel are 1/80. As most trains were EMU it would have been difficult to arrange pilot engines.


Not in 1965 it wouldn't. Then 80 was a Pompey direct code.
Indeed - as shown in my painting from many years ago.6307224182_7b3a8793de_k.jpg
 
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When I were a lad, on the CD, 94 was the headcode for London Bridge - London Bridge via Tulse Hill & Crystal Palace, and also Victoria - Coulsdon North via Selhurst. And 2 for Wimbledon - West Croydon and Victoria - London Bridge via the South London Line (both directions for these).
But none of these clashed (ie two 94s) never met. It was 2 out of Victoria to Littlehampton and London Bridge which might have clashed.
And this suggests that London Bridge had more than one even headcode service.
 

Belperpete

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I have both the 1974 and 1984 publication by the Southern Electric Group

Southern Region 2 Character Headcodes

They detail all the Number and Number and Letter trains , passenger and Freight

I have now up loaded them on to my site - Transport Past Times

Handy little publications
I used to have a leaflet that the Southern Region produced for the public, listing the headcodes. It was in the same style as the timetable leaflets of the era, about 4"x3" multiple concertina folded. Will have to see if I still have it. I can't remember if it covered the whole Region, or just one Division.

I recall that in addition to the numbers, units could also display a solid bar above the numbers, or a split bar. I think these were used to denote limited-stop services. Not sure if this was done with stencils, or the roller-blind system.

The roller blinds could also display solid white, and solid red. It was Southern practice for units to display solid red in both rear blinds, rather than carry a tail-light. I recall an occasion when such a unit on an inter-regional special was stopped by a signaller for not carrying a proper tail-light.
 

Belperpete

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An example where this happened was Waterloo-Bournemouth trains in the last few months before electrification, when Eastleigh had Brush Type 4s D1921-26 to use on loco hauled Bournemouth services.

A quick look on flickr suggests that the locos mostly displayed the 2 digit codes.
This would make sense, as the 2 digit codes were made public, to help passengers catch the correct train, whereas the 4 digit train numbers were generally only used internally. Remember that this was in the days before platform indicators and such-like. Many stations had finger-boards, but there weren't always staff on duty to put them up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Modern 4 character headcodes are a development of the GWR system. Their adoption by most other regions was mostly but not entirely in 1961.
Traditional Western Region train describers were made of 4 electro-mechanical stepping units, to display the 4 digits on the signaller's panel. These had ten positions, so the letter position could only display 10 letters. The Western was therefore limited to train numbers with a small sub-set of the letter codes. The Western still doggedly held onto their electro-mechanical system long after other regions had gone over to electronic systems (such as cathode ray tubes).
 
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norbitonflyer

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These had ten positions, so the letter position could only display 10 letters. The Western was therefore limited to train numbers with a small sub-set of the letter codes.
That's extremely limited, given that five of the letters were reserved for interregional services
 

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That's extremely limited, given that five of the letters were reserved for interregional services

Plus X and Z also being the same nearly everywhere. I think the WR did used the same numbers for all services on a minor line: in 1973 all Severn Beach line passengers were 2B51 and all Looe line ones 2B57.
 

jfollows

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Plus X and Z also being the same nearly everywhere. I think the WR did used the same numbers for all services on a minor line: in 1973 all Severn Beach line passengers were 2B51 and all Looe line ones 2B57.
Not just the WR; at the same time all Altrincham-Crewe/Alderley Edge services had headcodes which identified the route and not the train.
2H53 / 2K62 / 2H54 for Alderley Edge via Styal / Crewe via Stockport / Alderley Edge via Stockport for example. Same in the down direction except that 2K62 became 2H62. Meaning that trains with identical 2H53 & 2H54 headcodes passed each other going in opposite directions.
Interestingly (to me, anyway) Alderley Edge destination is now 2Kxx whereas it used to be 2Hxx.
 
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etr221

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Not just the WR; at the same time all Altrincham-Crewe/Alderley Edge services had headcodes which identified the route and not the train.
2H53 / 2K62 / 2H54 for Alderley Edge via Styal / Crewe via Stockport / Alderley Edge via Stockport for example. Same in the down direction except that 2K62 became 2H62.
Interestingly (to me, anyway) Alderley Edge destination is now 2Kxx whereas it used to be 2Hxx.
My understanding was - and is - that when the 4 character head code system was introduced, the standard was that for class 2/B, and some other trains, the final two characters would indicate route, and not individual train. Quite which types of train this principle applied to varied according to regional decision.
It wasn't initially used on the SR - I was slightly surprised to learn, when it had been introduced, that trains were being given individual numbers, with the position 2 letter for route - and wondering whether there were enough letters.

In retrospect it was perhaps a short sighted error not have gone for a 6 position/character system, to (hopefully) provide for national system of unique train ids - instead of the hodge podge set of systems we have ended up with.

The Barrowmore Model Railway Group (at http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html) a PDF of an early version of the LMR Guide to the system available to download.
 
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Pigeon

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Traditional Western Region train describers were made of 4 electro-mechanical stepping units, to display the 4 digits on the signaller's panel. These had ten positions, so the letter position could only display 10 letters. The Western was therefore limited to train numbers with a small sub-set of the letter codes. The Western still doggedly held onto their electro-mechanical system long after other regions had gone over to electronic systems (such as cathode ray tubes).

Am I right in thinking that these used GPO uniselectors to make a serial-in/out shift register clocked at the standard telephone dialling-pulse rate to shift the train descriptions in one end and out the other as the train passed from one signalbox to the next? I've never been able to find any diagrams of the circuitry or related technical details, but the few non-technical mentions of them I've come across sound as if they must be something of that kind.

I did once manage to find some description of how the miniature CRT indicators worked - all analogue, using various combinations of Lissajou figures and suitable blanking to draw the digits. Nuts. Seems to me that Nixie tubes would have been far simpler and more reliable.
 

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Traditional Western Region train describers were made of 4 electro-mechanical stepping units, to display the 4 digits on the signaller's panel. These had ten positions, so the letter position could only display 10 letters. The Western was therefore limited to train numbers with a small sub-set of the letter codes. The Western still doggedly held onto their electro-mechanical system long after other regions had gone over to electronic systems (such as cathode ray tubes).
Thanks, I've learned something new! That might explain why internal Western Region codes rarely got beyond A, B and C.
 

Belperpete

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Thanks, I've learned something new! That might explain why internal Western Region codes rarely got beyond A, B and C.
Based on the info I have for the successor WR SSTD, I think that the WR electro-mechanical TDs were limited to Z A B C F E M O V and X. Note that E and F came in reverse order, both on the keyboard and in the SSTD bit allocations - I suspect that this might have been done to match the order of the letters on the stepper in the old e/m system.
 

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Based on the info I have for the successor WR SSTD, I think that the WR electro-mechanical TDs were limited to Z A B C F E M O V and X. Note that E and F came in reverse order, both on the keyboard and in the SSTD bit allocations - I suspect that this might have been done to match the order of the letters on the stepper in the old e/m system.

A look at a 1973 Mandatory WTT for workings north over Abbotswood Junction shows that all could be covered by this except the half-dozen or so trains to the Scottish Region, which are listed as *S** in the timetable: I would guess that X or Z was used for them on the panels. A possible reason for F coming before E was that it was used for light loco movements: this gives all four internal letters first and then the inter-regional ones. (I have a feeling that early on F was used for the Swansea Division.)
 

Belperpete

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Am I right in thinking that these used GPO uniselectors to make a serial-in/out shift register clocked at the standard telephone dialling-pulse rate to shift the train descriptions in one end and out the other as the train passed from one signalbox to the next? I've never been able to find any diagrams of the circuitry or related technical details, but the few non-technical mentions of them I've come across sound as if they must be something of that kind.

I did once manage to find some description of how the miniature CRT indicators worked - all analogue, using various combinations of Lissajou figures and suitable blanking to draw the digits. Nuts. Seems to me that Nixie tubes would have been far simpler and more reliable.
I am not aware that the WR system used uniselectors. Within the signalbox area, the descriptions were stored by the displays themselves (unlike with electronic TDs, where the description is stored within the TD processor). As I recall, when a description stepped from one display to the next, a series of ten pulses was fed to the entrance display. Each stepper would step round to its home position, after which it would send the remaining pulses to the forward display and that would step. So if a counter was showing say "6", the first four pulses would put it back to its home position, then it would send the remaining 6 pulses on to the forward display to step to "6". It is possible that uniselectors might have been used for hidden storage of descriptions, for things like box to box transmissions, but I wasn't involved in the "innards". The system used standard relay sets, and all we as signal engineers did was to connect them up in predefined configurations.

Note that it is usual for descriptions to be sent a couple of signal sections early, rather than wait until a train steps over the boundary, so that the forward signaller has advance warning of what trains are approaching. The description will then appear on both panels.

I seem to recall that some early electronic TDs did use NIXIE displays, but they were not a success. They probably didn't give adequate readability under the kind of conditions encountered on a typical signalling panel, where the signaller may be looking at an oblique angle at displays several feet away. Let alone the supervisor sitting on the desk behind. I also wonder if there might not have been electrical issues too. There can be a lot of EM interference in a panel, if the wires from the buttons are directly controlling signalling relays in the interlocking downstairs. On a congested signalling panel, the display drivers will be nowhere near the displays themselves - sometimes they may not even be in the panel at all. This certainly caused some issues with CRT displays, where a description could sometimes "swim" around the display, or bounce slightly.
 

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On a non-technical basis, when I worked in a fringe to Bristol Panel, train descriptions were dialled (yes, an old telephone-style dial) in on an ancient machine that seemed to have a Bakelite front and was held together by tape. As you dialled there was a lot of clicking and the occasional buzz, while the figures would rotate horizontally in a little window. All a bit ancient compared to the one that we had to send descriptions the other way: a shiny orange and grey box with push buttons and led display.
 

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A look at a 1973 Mandatory WTT for workings north over Abbotswood Junction shows that all could be covered by this except the half-dozen or so trains to the Scottish Region, which are listed as *S** in the timetable
As many as that?

On the SW-NE route the first timetable with a through train from the Western Region to Scotland is May 1971 which has 0710 Paignton-Edinburgh. This became the Plymouth-Edinburgh the following year, and also gained dated reliefs. Was this 1S27 from the outset?

Did the Bristol-Glasgow sleeper via the West Coast start before the 1974 electrification timetable? Was it always 1S19, and maybe some dates the Edinburgh portion ran as a separate train?
 

etr221

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Looking at Ian Allan's abc of Headcodes, updated to Winter 1962, 'Inter Regional' letters were E,M,N,O,S,V and X; the Western had A,B,C,F,H,J,T (for its various districts) and Z (for excursions, military trains and specials), so a total of 15 for the WR to handle (assuming it then had trains to Scottish and North Eastern Regions). How that fitted with what's been stated upthread I don't know.
 

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Weekdays

1S31 09.25 Bristol-Edinburgh (until 26 October)
1S27 07.30 Plymouth-Edinburgh
4S88 17.00 Pengam-Edinburgh
4S38 18.34 Bristol-Glasgow
3S15 20.25 Bristol-Glasgow
1S19 21.00 Bristol-Glasgow
1S56 18.50 Newton Abbot-Stirling (FX until 20 September, TThO until 18 October)
1S23 21.11 Bristol-Edinburgh (FO 29 June to 28 September)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

As many as that?

On the SW-NE route the first timetable with a through train from the Western Region to Scotland is May 1971 which has 0710 Paignton-Edinburgh. This became the Plymouth-Edinburgh the following year, and also gained dated reliefs. Was this 1S27 from the outset?

Did the Bristol-Glasgow sleeper via the West Coast start before the 1974 electrification timetable? Was it always 1S19, and maybe some dates the Edinburgh portion ran as a separate train?
 

Magdalia

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Weekdays

1S31 09.25 Bristol-Edinburgh (until 26 October)
1S27 07.30 Plymouth-Edinburgh
4S88 17.00 Pengam-Edinburgh
4S38 18.34 Bristol-Glasgow
3S15 20.25 Bristol-Glasgow
1S19 21.00 Bristol-Glasgow
1S56 18.50 Newton Abbot-Stirling (FX until 20 September, TThO until 18 October)
1S23 21.11 Bristol-Edinburgh (FO 29 June to 28 September)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Thanks. I come from a part of the world where passenger and freight are in different books.

I'm guessing 1S56 is Motorail, 3S15 parcels and 4S38/88 freightliners?

So I wonder which one was the first to require S and when?
 

Gloster

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Thanks. I come from a part of the world where passenger and freight are in different books.

I'm guessing 1S56 is Motorail, 3S15 parcels and 4S38/88 freightliners?

So I wonder which one was the first to require S and when?

Correct as to query one. As to query two, do you mean which was the first one of the day to be typed in with a substitute for S? The 07.30 Plymouth would have been been on a panel at its starting point, but would soon have been back to Absolute Block as the panel was only then working to Totnes. It would be back on a PSB at Cogload Junction and I think that would take it all the way to Abbotswood Junction.
 

Magdalia

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Correct as to query one. As to query two, do you mean which was the first one of the day to be typed in with a substitute for S? The 07.30 Plymouth would have been been on a panel at its starting point, but would soon have been back to Absolute Block as the panel was only then working to Totnes. It would be back on a PSB at Cogload Junction and I think that would take it all the way to Abbotswood Junction.
No I mean year by year which was the first to appear in the timetable with an S headcode? For example the ER timetables suggest that 1S27 and 1S31 started in 1971 and 1972 respectively. Or, to put it another way, when was the first timetable when the Western actually had a train with an S code, rather than it just being a theoretical requirement?
 

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No I mean year by year which was the first to appear in the timetable with an S headcode? For example the ER timetables suggest that 1S27 and 1S31 started in 1971 and 1972 respectively.
Checking the WTTs for those which ran along the northern WCML, the first timetable issue when particular trains appeared are:-
  • 4S38 18.34 Bristol-Glasgow Sighthill - May 1973
  • 3S15 20.24 Bristol-Glasgow Salkeld St Parcels Stn. - May 1971
  • 1S56 09:05 WTO Newton Abbot-Stirling Motorail - May 1970
I don't have the relevant WTT for 1969, but the schematic Motorail map in that year's LMR Passenger Timetable suggests the West Country / Scotland service ran between Plymouth & Edinburgh via the ECML. So any such train would have needed an "S" headcode.

Did the Bristol-Glasgow sleeper via the West Coast start before the 1974 electrification timetable? Was it always 1S19, and maybe some dates the Edinburgh portion ran as a separate train?
The May 1973 timetable was the first whereby the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper was extended southwards to/from Bristol. Up until May 1973 it had started & terminated at New Street.

Both before and after the extension to Bristol, these trains most of the time ran with Glasgow & Edinburgh portions. Except for summer Friday nights / Saturday mornings when there were separate Glasgow and Edinburgh trains, running 10 mins apart and both with sleeper accommodation.

The regular GLC/EDB portion train and the summer FO/SO Glasgow-only train ran with the longstanding headcode 1S19 and the summer Edinburgh trains were 1S23. This applied whether starting from Bristol or Birmingham.
In the reverse direction, obviously reporting numbers changed after 1973. Firstly they had been 1M16 and 1M17 (ex-Edinburgh) when the terminus was New Street; 1V56 and 1V57 (ex-Edinburgh) for Bristol - but not really relevant to this thread.

Or, to put it another way, when was the first timetable when the Western actually had a train with an S code, rather than it just being a theoretical requirement?
Looking at "the other book" (the Freight / Conditional WTTs), there were a couple of block trains which might pre-date the ones listed above.

May 1969 had:-
  • 4S32 14:45 MWFO Morris Cowley to Bathgate (return working was 6V38)
  • 6S33 13:25 Herbrandston Sidings (Milford Haven) to Glasgow Sighthill East (return working was 6V56)

In the 1960s there still would have been quite a bit of old-school goods traffic between points on the Scottish & Western Regions, but at that time pretty much everything except Freightliners & Company Block Trains enjoyed a "break of journey" at Carlisle Yard - meaning trains from origins like Severn Tunnel Junction and Stoke Gifford would be assigned an "M" rather than a "S" reporting number.
 
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Magdalia

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May 1969 had:-
  • 4S32 14:45 MWFO Morris Cowley to Bathgate (return working was 6V38)
  • 6S33 13:25 Herbrandston Sidings (Milford Haven) to Glasgow Sighthill East (return working was 6V56)
Thanks for checking. The car trains from Morris Cowley were something I'd not considered so I went to my 1965 WR WTT for the Oxford/Banbury area and it has this:

3S49 MWFO Coy 1315 Morris Cowley to Johnstone

The return working was 3V38 1255 TThSat Coy 1255 Johnstone to Morris Cowley (TTh)/Hinksey (Sat)

So it looks like car trains were the first.
 
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Belperpete

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On a non-technical basis, when I worked in a fringe to Bristol Panel, train descriptions were dialled (yes, an old telephone-style dial) in on an ancient machine that seemed to have a Bakelite front and was held together by tape. As you dialled there was a lot of clicking and the occasional buzz, while the figures would rotate horizontally in a little window. All a bit ancient compared to the one that we had to send descriptions the other way: a shiny orange and grey box with push buttons and led display.
Was the orange and grey box a WR SSTD box? Or was it a fringe to a proprietary system? SSTD was designed to repicate the old electro mechanical system in electronic form. So much so, that it had A cards, B cards, etc that carried out pretty much the same functions as the A relay set, B set etc in the old system. It was unofficially called the "Fortey describer", after the chap who developed it (Phil Fortey).

In my experience, with the electromechanical displays on the panels the signallers set up the descriptions by simply manually rotating the counters in the relevant display. As the system aged and became less reliable, it was not uncommon for them to have to correct the description when it stepped and the display miscounted.

A feature of the system was the sounds that it made whenever a description stepped. It was often said that Western signalmen didn't need train approaching alarms, as the train describer chuntering would wake them up!
 

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I went to my 1965 WR WTT for the Oxford/Banbury area and it has this:

3S49 MWFO Coy 1315 Morris Cowley to Johnstone

The return working was 3V38 1255 TThSat Coy 1255 Johnstone to Morris Cowley (TTh)/Hinksey (Sat)

So it looks like car trains were the first.

This ~12-year old post on the RM Web Forum mentions the 1963 WTT having a 4S72 1.50pm MWO Morris Cowley-Bathgate. That's only a year or two after 4-character headcodes were invented, so pretty much reinforces these car trains as being the first WR "S"s.
 

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Was the orange and grey box a WR SSTD box? Or was it a fringe to a proprietary system?

I have not the slightest idea: I am a mechanical era signalman and technology baffles me. It was just a large box, around 2’x2’x1’, with a grey front panel in an orange casing. I just pressed the buttons and checked that the correct indications appeared: all else was and is beyond me.
 

Belperpete

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I have not the slightest idea: I am a mechanical era signalman and technology baffles me. It was just a large box, around 2’x2’x1’, with a grey front panel in an orange casing. I just pressed the buttons and checked that the correct indications appeared: all else was and is beyond me.
It does sound very much like a SSTD fringe unit. I seem to recall that these were also used to replace the old electro mechanical fringe units (those with the dial) when they became unserviceable. If it fringed to a Western Region panel, it would almost certainly have been in-house SSTD. If it was a fringe to another region's panel, it would almost certainly have been a contractor's proprietary unit.
 

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The May 1973 timetable was the first whereby the Birmingham - Glasgow/Edinburgh sleeper was extended southwards to/from Bristol. Up until May 1973 it had started & terminated at New Street.
Also the May 1973 timetable was when the day Paignton to Newcastle service was extended to Edinburgh. It was the year before the (faster) services on the WCML via Birmingham were to be introduced, I did wonder if it was some competitive spirit by the NE-SW team of the era. At a time when there was effectively no daytime WCML service at all in Scotland, due to the electrification works, it did well.

Being in Edinburgh at the time, I did actually use it to travel direct from there to Taunton, and amused the booking clerk by calling it the "Torbay Express".
 
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