Different headcode systems intercompatability.

[Chiltern 165]

Does anyone know how trains with modern head codes (eg 1L51) would run in the southern region (where they had two digit number codes)?

 

[driver9000]

To my understanding the route codes were just to denote route/stopping patterns and the trains were still identified by a standard individual headcode.

 

[John Webb]

The two-digit number codes were introduced by the Southern Railway after the 1923 Grouping, and were route indicators rather than individual train identifiers. This of course was a time when most of the network was operated by a large number of signal boxes. In some areas there were early electro-mechanical train describers to assist. But if, for example, you read the report on the December 1957 crash at St John's, near Lewisham, you will see that these had their limitations, and the trains were generally referred to by their time of departure from the appropriate terminus they were coming from.

At what point these trains started being identified by individual codes I know not. But the route codes were used for some years after widespread resignalling in the SE London and Kent area.

 

[Magdalia]

Does anyone know how trains with modern head codes (eg 1L51) would run in the southern region (where they had two digit number codes)?

Modern 4 character headcodes are a development of the GWR system. Their adoption by most other regions was mostly but not entirely in 1961.

At that time the Southern Region still had a lot of steam hauled services and a complicated disc identification system for these, which continued until steam was eliminated. The Southern 2 digit codes for EMU services already existed and also continued to be used. The 1961 change only affected the Southern with regard to inter-regional services.

I have a 1965 South Western Division WTT. Only inter-regional trains, and a few other oddities, have modern 4 character headcodes. EMU services have 2 digit codes, and steam hauled trains, for example Waterloo-Bournemouth, no codes at all.

One of the oddities is the Woking-Basingstoke shuttle, which was worked by a WR DMU and had a 2B43 headcode.

Another quirk is the inter-regional trains booked for BRCW Type 3s on the Southern parts of longer journeys. Two examples I know of are the Wolverhampton-Portsmouth (1O22) and the Portsmouth-Sheffield (1E55), which were booked BRCW Type 3 south of Basingstoke and carried 52 as their Southern 2 digit code.

To my understanding the route codes were just to denote route/stopping patterns and the trains were still identified by a standard individual headcode.

I don't know when the Southern Region first started to allocate modern 4 character headcodes to all trains, including EMU services. it is some time between 1965 and 1980.

 

[Andy R. A.]

Attached extract from a 1979 Working Timetable showing both systems displayed. The four digit train descriptions were required with the spread of Power Signal Boxes that used the more modern alpha numeric train describers.

 

[Taunton]

The older SUB units used a single letter code, shown with a stencil at the front; the 2-digit replacement came later, inevitably when they had run out of letters. I believe there was an associated advertising campaign by the Hovis bread company with photographs of five trains lined up side by side showing HOVIS in the stencils. Like the later digits the metal stencil plates were kept in a box in the cab; when the combinations started to run out subterfuges included V shown upside-down. The 2-digit later scheme also had a box of stencils, just 10 of them 0-9, so twin digit numbers like 33 or 55 were not possible; these got used later on services only run by more modern traction, like diesels, with two roller blinds instead of stencils.

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Modern 4 character headcodes are a development of the GWR system. Their adoption by most other regions was mostly but not entirely in 1961.

I wouldn't really describe it so. The GWR system placed a large temporary frame on the loco smokebox with three digit plates for individual train numbers; the Cornish Riviera was 130 for example. Most Western Region steam sheds had various elements of these frames and the numberplates, often battered beyond further use, laying against odd back walls. The numbers were not illuminated. When the 1961 change to standard 4-character indications was made this was adapted so that the first character continued to be shown by lamps, the remaining three by the GWR method, for which letters for the second character were made, so 1A45 (can't remember but it was a regular I recall) was shown by express lamps and A45 in the plates.

The first WR diesels, including Warships up to D812, also had a framework for the plates fitted to their nose ends. The several hundred train numbers were shown in the Ian Allan spotters book for the Western Region, there was no discernible pattern to them. Novice trainspotters used to write them down as the loco number!

 

[Gloster]

One difference with the Southern system for loco hauled trains was that they showed the route of the train, not the class as on other regions. For example, a Waterloo-Weymouth train would show different codes depending on whichever of the different alternative routes it might take (via Virginia Water, via Havant, etc.) and also its stopping pattern (fast, semi-fast or slow). A Nine Elms-Eastleigh freight would also show different codes depending on the route, but the same one irrespective of the class of train.

 

[jfollows]

I don't know when the Southern Region first started to allocate modern 4 character headcodes to all trains, including EMU services. it is some time between 1965 and 1980.

My 10 July 1967 to 5 May 1968 SWD working timetable shows them for all trains for the first time; the preceding timetable only shows them for inter-regional trains and oddities as you say.

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I lived on the SW Division 1984 to 1994, and although I was only a reader of working timetables, I completely ignored the 4 character headcodes, but the two character route codes were always displayed then and invaluable - if you were waiting for a down train at Woking you knew right away if the train arriving was the Portsmouth one or not, even before you could see which type of unit was operating it. The 4 character headcodes appeared to "break the rules" as well - 1M76 and 1M77 in post 5 above would have been inter-regional services destined for the London Midland Region anywhere else, essentially the Southern Region appeared to steal some letters to broaden the name space for its headcodes because an EMU heading for Ore wasn't going to be confused with an inter-regional train I guess.

EDIT Plus 1V00 which would normally be destined for the Western Region of course.

 

[Magdalia]

I wouldn't really describe it so. The GWR system placed a large temporary frame on the loco smokebox with three digit plates for individual train numbers; the Cornish Riviera was 130 for example. Most Western Region steam sheds had various elements of these frames and the numberplates, often battered beyond further use, laying against odd back walls. The numbers were not illuminated. When the 1961 change to standard 4-character indications was made this was adapted so that the first character continued to be shown by lamps, the remaining three by the GWR method, for which letters for the second character were made, so 1A45 (can't remember but it was a regular I recall) was shown by express lamps and A45 in the plates.

Thanks. I've seen pictures of GWR steam locos, with a letter then two numbers in the 3 digit plates. So that was only after 1961?

My 10 July 1967 to 5 May 1968 SWD working timetable shows them for all trains for the first time; the preceding timetable only shows them for inter-regional trains and oddities as you say.

10 July 1967 being the start of Waterloo-Bournemouth electrics.

Does anyone know what happened on the Central and South Eastern Divisions?

 

[jfollows]

10 July 1967 being the start of Waterloo-Bournemouth electrics.

Does anyone know what happened on the Central and South Eastern Divisions?

I have a 1967 SE Division working timetable for the same period and it does not show 4-character headcodes, so it may have been something the SW Division did first, perhaps alongside the electrification to Bournemouth as you say.
I then have SE Division and Central Division working timetables for 1972, both of which now have 4-character headcodes. So these "went over" presumably some time between 1968 and 1972.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It wasn't only the GWR/WR that used train numbers before the 4 letter code.

The LMS/LMR used a similar system but prefixed by the (LMS) Division - 'W', 'C' or 'M'. These were carried on boards on the locos' lamp-brackets if the train was working through congested and complicated areas, e.g. trains to Blackpool in the holiday season. The L.N.W.R. also used a number system sometimes displayed on a board on a lamp-bracket but arcane and details lost by time.

The GN/LNER/ER used individual train numbers - some trains' numbers became well known, including express merchandise trains..

The G.W./W.R. frames to take the 3-digit numbers were later were used to display the last 3 characters of the 4 character code - all described up thread by Taunton. This was the W.R. way of showing the B.R. system, not the W.R. system that evolved into the B.R. one.

 

[Springs Branch]

On reading the OP, I did wonder whether BR Southern Region used the same two digits from the established route/stopping code system as the 3rd and 4th characters when introducing the new four-character headcodes. Based on Post #5, it seems not - at least in 1979.

Rather, it looks like the last two characters were sequential train numbers through the day (presumably odd numbers for the Up direction, even for Down).

In contrast, at the same time on the London Midland Region, the last two digits did indicate the train's route for Class 2 stopping trains and stayed the same for all the relevant trains through the day's service. As examples - all Lime St to Wigan NW DMUs were 2F50 (in both directions), all Preston to Colne DMUs (and vice versa) were 2P57 and all Kirkby to Bolton trains were 2J59, whereas Bolton to Kirkby were 2F59.

 

[Gloster]

Thanks. I've seen pictures of GWR steam locos, with a letter then two numbers in the 3 digit plates. So that was only after 1961?

I think that this was a temporary lash up that didn’t last long. Steam locos couldn’t display the four-character headcodes, so they continued to use the old system with lamps for the the class of train and the frames, which could only hold three boards, to display the letter and two numbers. 1A23 would have class 1 headlamps and a board with A23 on it.

 

[Chiltern 165]

What im asking is: if a train with a four letter headcode had to cover a two letter headcode service what would they set the headcode to.

 

[Gloster]

What im asking is: if a train with a four letter headcode had to cover a two letter headcode service what would they set the headcode to.

If you mean, ‘What would happen if, say, a normally e.m.u worked train, such as a London-Portsmouth Harbour via Guildford service, was worked by loco and coaches.’ I think it would depend on the driver: most would probably use the four-character headcode, but some might turn the first two to blank and the last two to the two-character headcode. For non-passenger workings they would probably stick to the four-character. If there was a rule, it was probably to display the four-character one if possible.

 

[Magdalia]

What im asking is: if a train with a four letter headcode had to cover a two letter headcode service what would they set the headcode to.

An example where this happened was Waterloo-Bournemouth trains in the last few months before electrification, when Eastleigh had Brush Type 4s D1921-26 to use on loco hauled Bournemouth services.

A quick look on flickr suggests that the locos mostly displayed the 2 digit codes.

 

[Merle Haggard]

That's reminded me of a Scottish Region oddity. They fitted 4-character headcodes to the English Electric Type 4s that were built without them - but, certainly in the late 1960s, they then ran around just displaying the train class on the left hand blind, the rest black blank.
I think I remember correctly that changing head codes was included in the timings for train preparation so possibly that reflecting an un-resolved dispute.

 

[Taunton]

I think that this was a temporary lash up that didn’t last long. Steam locos couldn’t display the four-character headcodes, so they continued to use the old system with lamps for the the class of train and the frames, which could only hold three boards, to display the letter and two numbers. 1A23 would have class 1 headlamps and a board with A23 on it.

It lasted as long as Western main line steam did; the final such departures from Paddington appear with these frames. The early D600 and first 13 D800 Warships diesels were built with fittings on the nose for them, but later rebuilt with 4-character displays. I've never noticed a pre-nationalisation photo with them mounted, so they may have been an early Western Region idea

 

[Chiltern 165]

An example where this happened was Waterloo-Bournemouth trains in the last few months before electrification, when Eastleigh had Brush Type 4s D1921-26 to use on loco hauled Bournemouth services.

A quick look on flickr suggests that the locos mostly displayed the 2 digit codes.

Would you be able to send me a link to one of those photos?

 

[D6130]

That's reminded me of a Scottish Region oddity. They fitted 4-character headcodes to the English Electric Type 4s that were built without them - but, certainly in the late 1960s, they then ran around just displaying the train class on the left hand blind, the rest black blank.
I think I remember correctly that changing head codes was included in the timings for train preparation so possibly that reflecting an un-resolved dispute.

Four character train reporting numbers/headcodes didn't come into use on Scottish Region internal services until the May 1973 timetable....which coincided with the commissioning of Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow Central 'new panel' powerboxes - the first covering Scotland to have four character train describers. Until then, ScR internal services only carried the classification number for the train....hence the proliferation of locos running around displaying '1' or '2' - accompanied by an assortment of dots - in their headcode boxes. Exceptions were the Glasgow-Edinburgh high-speed push-pull shuttles - all of which displayed '1000' from their inauguration in 1971 - and local trip freight workings - which would carry their trip number in the headcode box. (e.g. 'N24' for the ammunition trains to and from Glen Douglas).

 

[eastwestdivide]

Would you be able to send me a link to one of those photos?

searching flickr for
waterloo bournemouth class 47
found me this of D1924 displaying ..95 on the last Bournemouth Belle in 1967:

D1924

Brush Type 4 (later Class "47/0") 2,750hp Co-Co No.D1924 (later No.47 247) in BR two-tone green livery departing Waterloo with the last "Bournemouth Belle" Pullman to Bournemouth (West), 09/07/67. Scanned photograph taken with a Kowa SET camera.

www.flickr.com

and a grainy D1926 displaying ..92 from searching
waterloo bournemouth brush type 4

22 April 1967 - Woking - D1926

Brush Type 4 (later class 47) D1926 at Woking on 12.40 Bournemouth to Waterloo

www.flickr.com

 

[Gloster]

searching flickr for
waterloo bournemouth class 47
found me this of D1924 displaying ..95 on the last Bournemouth Belle in 1967:

D1924

Brush Type 4 (later Class "47/0") 2,750hp Co-Co No.D1924 (later No.47 247) in BR two-tone green livery departing Waterloo with the last "Bournemouth Belle" Pullman to Bournemouth (West), 09/07/67. Scanned photograph taken with a Kowa SET camera.

www.flickr.com

and a grainy D1926 displaying ..92 from searching
waterloo bournemouth brush type 4

22 April 1967 - Woking - D1926

Brush Type 4 (later class 47) D1926 at Woking on 12.40 Bournemouth to Waterloo

www.flickr.com

If you do a search for Bournemouth Belle on Flickr or try the tag for that at the bottom right of the D1924 photo, you will another one of D1926, this time with 9-blank-2-blank.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Four character train reporting numbers/headcodes didn't come into use on Scottish Region internal services until the May 1973 timetable....which coincided with the commissioning of Carlisle, Motherwell and Glasgow Central 'new panel' powerboxes - the first covering Scotland to have four character train describers. Until then, ScR internal services only carried the classification number for the train....hence the proliferation of locos running around displaying '1' or '2' - accompanied by an assortment of dots - in their headcode boxes. Exceptions were the Glasgow-Edinburgh high-speed push-pull shuttles - all of which displayed '1000' from their inauguration in 1971 - and local trip freight workings - which would carry their trip number in the headcode box. (e.g. 'N24' for the ammunition trains to and from Glen Douglas).

Thanks, interesting.
Does that mean that there was no train id in the ScR wtt before 1973? On the LMR there was always a train id at the top of the column, the LMS-origin 3 digit no was replace by the 4 character one at a timetable change.
Also begs the question why ScR works went to the trouble of rebuilding the earlier EE4s with 4 character boxes long before they were actually used - the other Regions that did use the new system for identification didn't.

 

[Taunton]

Also begs the question why ScR works went to the trouble of rebuilding the earlier EE4s with 4 character boxes long before they were actually used - the other Regions that did use the new system for identification didn't.

A quite longstanding question, especially as the ScR long had few main line Class 4 locos allocated, and borrowed from the English Regions extensively; the 0805 Glasgow Queen Street to Aberdeen, which I saw regularly depart in 1973, was invariably a Crewe or Tinsley allocated Class 47.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Also begs the question why ScR works went to the trouble of rebuilding the earlier EE4s with 4 character boxes long before they were actually used - the other Regions that did use the new system for identification didn't.

Could it be that the main reason for rebuilding the nose ends was to remove the draughty gangway doors, and the opportunity was taken to fit headcode boxes at the same time? (possibly as the tooling was already available to rebuild the nose ends to that design)

 

[Merle Haggard]

Could it be that the main reason for rebuilding the nose ends was to remove the draughty gangway doors, and the opportunity was taken to fit headcode boxes at the same time? (possibly as the tooling was already available to rebuild the nose ends to that design)

Yes, that's very logical.

 

[nw1]

Another quirk is the inter-regional trains booked for BRCW Type 3s on the Southern parts of longer journeys. Two examples I know of are the Wolverhampton-Portsmouth (1O22) and the Portsmouth-Sheffield (1E55), which were booked BRCW Type 3 south of Basingstoke and carried 52 as their Southern 2 digit code.

52 sounds very confusing as that of course is Waterloo-Alton, at least post-1967 but maybe you're talking about before that?

So these services were routed Eastleigh for a while? I always remember them being routed Guildford in the 80s. I'm assuming the latter was basically the same service as the 1020-ish Portsmouth-Leeds of the mid-80s, summer Sats only.

If they were indeed routed Eastleigh, 80 would make some sense as that was Portsmouth-Reading, pre-Solent electrification at least.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2024 ==

If you do a search for Bournemouth Belle on Flickr or try the tag for that at the bottom right of the D1924 photo, you will another one of D1926, this time with 9-blank-2-blank.

You do learn some interesting things on here I never knew 47s were in charge of '92's, even if only for a short while.

 

[Gloster]

52 sounds very confusing as that of course is Waterloo-Alton!

Not at all. The headcodes were carefully planned so that the same two-character headcode could be used for several routes which did not come into contact with each other. Waterloo-Alton and Portsmouth-Sheffield trains, whether via Winchester or Guildford, do not share the same route at any point.

 

[nw1]

Not at all. The headcodes were carefully planned so that the same two-character headcode could be used for several routes which did not come into contact with each other. Waterloo-Alton and Portsmouth-Sheffield trains, whether via Winchester or Guildford, do not share the same route at any point.

True but many of the headcodes were totally unused and the part of my brain that likes to see order in these things would probably suggest 80 !

 

[Magdalia]

52 sounds very confusing as that of course is Waterloo-Alton, at least post-1967 but maybe you're talking about before that?

In 1965 52 was Waterloo-Aldershot/Farnham.

So these services were routed Eastleigh for a while?

But 52 was also Portsmouth/Fareham-Winchester/Basingstoke/ Reading.

Most cross country loco hauled trains to/from Portsmouth ran via Eastleigh because the gradients were easier. The same applied to excursion traffic.

On the Pompey Direct Witley-Haslemere and Rowlands Castle-Buriton Tunnel are 1/80. As most trains were EMU it would have been difficult to arrange pilot engines.

If they were indeed routed Eastleigh, 80 would make some sense as that was Portsmouth-Reading, pre-Solent electrification at least.

Not in 1965 it wouldn't. Then 80 was a Pompey direct code.