Letter of £131 Settlement offer

[MSim88]

Hello,
I had a day early in December where my Dad asked me to visit him, It was very last minute and when I checked the trains I had less than 5 minutes to get on the one about to leave or Id have to wait an hour. I prfered to try and get on that train as I only live a couple minutes from the station,
So I grabbed my things and started running, I ran from my flat in Pokesdown, Through the ticket office, Over the bridge and down the stairs of the platform and barely made it on to the train.

At this point I knew I needed to find the conductor to ask to buy a ticket,
The carriage I entered on had a man with a SWR jacket checking tickets, Whom I thought to be the conductor
So I sat down, pulled my phone out and got ready to ask to purchase a ticket
He approached me and I asked him "Can I please buy a ticket, I had to run to make it on to the train and barely made it on"
He replied, "I'm not the ticket conductor, I was on the platform and didnt see that, Can I please have your details please"
I replied, "What do you mean?, I ran through the ticket office acroos the bridge and down the stairs of the platform as the train was approaching, Id like to buy a ticket please"
He replied "I was on the platform and I didnt see that"
I again repeated me running through the station over the bridge and onto the plaform,
He was saying I was giving attitude which I wasn't. I explained that I'm upset and frustrated that you are saying I wasn't running to make the train. I asked again to buy my ticket and he said "I'm sorry but once you sit down that's basically saying you don't intend to pay"
I replied to him that I thought he was the conductor approaching and why would I sit down in the same carriage if I was trying not to pay? - It wouldnt make any sense

I couldn't believe the situation I found myself in within seconds of boarding and continued to get frustrated at not only him not letting me buy my ticket but also the way in which he was talking to me, He was talking to me like dirt and haggling me to sign the paper he'd printed whilst I was still explaining my side.

I hesitantly gave him my details, He was being very pushy with it and it was very uncomfortable for me.
He printed a peice of paper and asked me to sign it. I was trying to understand and reason with him still
He was ignoring it and then kept saying "Are you going to sign this" over and over.

I will note that I am on the autistic spectrum and social interactions, especially ones of this nature are not easy for me

I went on to say that I felt he haggled me from the second I got onto the train and didn't give me any opportunity to pay for my travel as he approached me straight away
He said "No I didn't It was 2 stations after pokesdown when I approached you" (Which is a lie because the CCTV on the train will show that it was immediate, The train departed Pokesdown at 14:10 and the time of the ticket on the letter is 14:12. He also put the station down "At" as New Milton as seen on the letter, which is 13 minute journey from pokesdown to New Milton. Which is evidence in itself that shows officer SWR4160 was lieing to justify the way he was treating me.

I did express to him that I felt he was being very pushy, talking badly to me and it was making me feel awkward. He replied "there is CCTV on this train and at every Station, It will show my demena being fine"
I replied cameras don't pick up tone of voice or record audio, I expressed to him I felt he was lying about not seeing me run onto the train and the CCTV at the station would show that
I then said that I have never not paid for my ticket and once again asked please can I do so, he said the paper he was issuing me was my ticket and then said you will recieve a letter from us as he left

--------------

I want to clarify
- I didn't know it wasn't allowed to buy a ticket on the train if you are unable to before boarding, which I wasn't. Id of had to wait another hour
- I have run late once before in the past and the conductor on that day was nice and had no issue letting me buy a ticket from him so thats the experience I was drawing from
- I have never been in any trouble in my life, I have always paid my train fares, This is the first time I have ever expeirenced something like this

The reason I have been umming and arring about this whole thing is because I am still 20 days later really not happy with the way the man was treating me.
There is evidence here that shows him lying twice, The Cameras at the station will show me run on and may even show him seeing that, I dont know
and the CCTV aboard the train itself will show him approaching me immediately where he said he approached me after 2 stops had passed where I was seated which was also a lie. The times and station on the letter support that too.

---------------

My questions to the forum here are:

Is the letter I recieved a direct to prosecution Stage?
I read that a unpaid fare can be paid with 50% off if within the first 14 days but the letter didnt show that?
I also read on the SWR website that you can appeal to Penalty Services Limited (PSL) for an unbiased 3rd party involvement?
1) Am I right in assuming my letter is different and I never had any of the above options?

2) Do you think I should just pay the fine and Move on?, I have to within the next 24 hours as today is Day 20

3) Hypothetically if I did take it to the court stage, Is the officer who issued me this asked to come to court?, I feel he treated me poor and I know that I can prove he lied on two counts but does that even matter?

I would assume they would just push through the "Boarding without a ticket" Byelaws Act I have read up on, regardless of the officer himself?
Would I just lose on that alone and end up paying more?

Thanks for any feedback and advice

 

[AlterEgo]

You don’t have a case here. You committed an offence when you boarded the train without a valid ticket, and paying the settlement will ensure you don’t get prosecuted for it. The conduct of the inspector, who ultimately has correctly reported you for the offence, is not relevant. You would be convicted at court, it’s a strict liability offence meaning no intent need be proven.

 

[jfollows]

1.) The 50% discount for early payment applies to a Penalty Fare. You were not given a Penalty Fare but were reported for potential prosecution.
2.) Pay up and move on. The alternatives are all worse.
3.) You are obliged to give your name & address if asked by an appropriate person. He may have come across as pushy but ultimately was in the right. You were in the wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2024 ==

PS Sorry if I appear blunt, both I and @AlterEgo are just being honest with you. You don’t have time for waffly answers!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Legally speaking, you are required to possess a valid ticket for your journey before you board the train, if ticket purchasing facilities exist at the station where you start your journey. There are some exceptions to this but they're not relevant in this case. Based on what you've told us, you passed a ticket office and a ticket machine which means you passed an opportunity to purchase a ticket and consequently you comitted a criminal offence.

SWR are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they wanted to, where they would almost certainly win. Instead, they have decided to offer you an out of court settlement which, if paid, keeps the matter out of court and means you won't have a criminal record.

Given the circumstances I would pay up and chalk it up to experience.

 

[Pushpit]

MSim88, I can see this incident really, really gnawed at you. Mainly due to the behaviour of the person we are calling the inspector, and how he didn't believe what you said. Unfortunately that member of rail staff will meet lots of fare evaders in his daily life, have a thick skin, and won't hugely care about the impact his words and actions have on others. I suspect it's quite difficult to do that role with buckets of sensitivity and diplomacy always on the ready. For those cases where exactly that happens, we see another problem - having been nicely treated by the inspector, several weeks later the traveller gets a version of the letter above and is shocked by the contents and threat to go to court. Some of them threaten prison, which really is wrong of them (it never happens).

When something gnaws at you like this then the thought of paying £131 adds insult to the very real injury you got from the events on the train. I suspect the incident constantly repeats itself in your head. Here's the bad bit: SWR fundamentally has the law on their side, you can't get on a train without a ticket and if that means waiting an hour, so be it. I regret how this escalated, and it should have been handled much better with a simple payment of the missing fare or a £50 Penalty Fare. You should pay up, but I notice the words you used in your question number 3. So I suspect you inwardly recognise that it doesn't matter - SWR can have their pound of flesh. So I would pay immediately but continue to lobby SWR to refund the £120 due to the shabby turn of events. That fee is lower than some other train companies.

Going forward, and taking note of being at risk in conflict situations, all the stations on that line have the Touch Smartcard readers on the platform. This requires a simple touch in and out, and allows you to be charged no more than the on-the-day fares. Maybe have that as a standby card in your purse.

 

[Discuss223]

Is the letter I recieved a direct to prosecution Stage?
I read that a unpaid fare can be paid with 50% off if within the first 14 days but the letter didnt show that?
I also read on the SWR website that you can appeal to Penalty Services Limited (PSL) for an unbiased 3rd party involvement?
1) Am I right in assuming my letter is different and I never had any of the above options?

2) Do you think I should just pay the fine and Move on?, I have to within the next 24 hours as today is Day 20

3) Hypothetically if I did take it to the court stage, Is the officer who issued me this asked to come to court?, I feel he treated me poor and I know that I can prove he lied on two counts but does that even matter?

I would assume they would just push through the "Boarding without a ticket" Byelaws Act I have read up on, regardless of the officer himself?
Would I just lose on that alone and end up paying more?

Thanks for any feedback and advice

1. The letter is offering you an opportunity to settle out of court, in lieu of prosecution.
You've not been issued a Penalty Fare, you have been reported to the prosecutions office for not having a ticket. They mention that they are considering prosecuting under either railway byelaws or the Regulation Of Railways Act 1889, the latter being more serious and would result in a criminal record. You would not be able to appeal a Penalty Fare, as you haven't been issued one.

2.You should accept the out of court settlement as you were in the wrong. Byelaw prosecutions are for strict liability offences and if what you say is correct, they likely have all of the evidence needed for that or they could go for a RORA Prosecution which if you are convicted, would result in a criminal record, as mentioned earlier. You being in a hurry doesn't negate your responsibility to buy a ticket before you boarded at Pokesdown.

3. It's difficult to say, but details of the incident are likely to be admitted from what the Officer has reported. There may also be body-worn surveillance footage that the Officer filmed of the incident, which is why it's very important that you tell us the full truth here.

Again, it's difficult to say for definite, but SWR are considering a Byelaw prosecution or a RORA1889 one. For the former, all that would be needed to be proven was that you boarded a train at a station with purchasing facilities and had not been able to present a valid ticket to an Officer of the railway. For a RORA, there would be a slightly heavier burden of proof and SWR would try to prove intent to avoid paying the fare.

In summary, I'd advise you to accept the settlement offer and move forwards from the matter and buy tickets before boarding, as SWR said to you, the option to settle out of court may not be offered to you a second time if you are caught without a valid ticket again.

 

[PMH]

Whilst clearly upsetting, this incident isn't worth 3 weeks of stress or several hundred words of back and forth on here.

It's a straightforward case where you should pay the amount owed and learn from the experience. As other posters have said, every other option is much worse.

 

[AlterEgo]

SWR aren’t going to refund £120 of admin fees; the OP is clearly guilty of the offence and this is a relatively straightforward way of dealing with the matter. Case closed I’m afraid; there is nothing to be gained in giving false hope. Just pay and be done with it.

 

[methecooldude]

Going forward, and taking note of being at risk in conflict situations, all the stations on that line have the Touch Smartcard readers on the platform. This requires a simple touch in and out, and allows you to be charged no more than the on-the-day fares. Maybe have that as a standby card in your purse.

This is only if the OP:

1. Has a Touch card
2. Has it active, with funds on it, for SWR Tap2Go.

To be clear, it's not like Contactless/Oyster in London, it won't *just work*

 

[Trainman40083]

This is only if the OP:

1. Has a Touch card
2. Has it active, with funds on it, for SWR Tap2Go.

To be clear, it's not like Contactless/Oyster in London, it won't *just work*

And it sounds so wonderful, that for the regular traveller who cuts it fine or just doesn't want the hassle of buying a ticket, it must be an absolute no brainer to have one.

 

[furlong]

First things first. What was the actual journey? Where does the £11.10 fare come from? Is it the correct fare?

 

[mrmartin]

The problem is here, again, that the railway is not consistent with their behaviour.

There seems to be at least 3 mechanisms the railway can use in these cases:

1) sell the ticket with no problem, which the OP got before
2) issue a PF
3) start criminal prosecutions

It is an enormous range of consequences to have when there was clearly no intent in this case to evade the fare or cause the railway any loss.

Obviously I understand that not everyone is honest here and there is significant scope for people to game the system. But it seems almost unbelievable that one day you can get a ticket on board with a smile and the next day be facing criminal court action.

I still don't really know why sometimes people get PF and sometimes people get investigated. It seems completely arbitrary.

I suspect this will all end in tears at some point in the future fwiw for the rail companies, just like SJP did.

 

[Bungle158]

In my railway days, most revenue control was conducted on a firm but fair basis. RPIs were given reasonable discretion to deal with 'borderline' transgressions. That said, l can't recall many working days without at least 1 fare irregularity, often involving blatant bilking.

The current system is far from ideal, but with a seemingly ingrained fare avoidance culture, it's difficult to see where operators can go to stem the flow.

 

[Skymonster]

But it seems almost unbelievable that one day you can get a ticket on board with a smile and the next day be facing criminal court action.

It really isn’t that difficult. A passenger needs to buy a ticket before they travel unless facilities aren’t available to do so (Nuances omitted). If they don’t, they commit a criminal offence. The potential outcome of a potential criminal offence being detected is being reported for prosecution. A less severe outcome is being let off lightly and cannot be taken for granted.

 

[Hadders]

The problem is here, again, that the railway is not consistent with their behaviour.

There seems to be at least 3 mechanisms the railway can use in these cases:

1) sell the ticket with no problem, which the OP got before
2) issue a PF
3) start criminal prosecutions

It is an enormous range of consequences to have when there was clearly no intent in this case to evade the fare or cause the railway any loss.

Obviously I understand that not everyone is honest here and there is significant scope for people to game the system. But it seems almost unbelievable that one day you can get a ticket on board with a smile and the next day be facing criminal court action.

I still don't really know why sometimes people get PF and sometimes people get investigated. It seems completely arbitrary.

I suspect this will all end in tears at some point in the future fwiw for the rail companies, just like SJP did.

We're in danger of getting into speculative discussion here, but while I agree the current legal framework around ticketing irregularities needs urgent review there will always be more than one way of dealing with something. This isn't unique to the railway, it happens everywhere. Take driving to fast - you can:

1. Be shown discresion and be let off
2. Be offered a speed awareness course
3. Be given a fixed penalty notice
4. Be summonsed to court

 

[Titfield]

We're in danger of getting into speculative discussion here, but while I agree the current legal framework around ticketing irregularities needs urgent review there will always be more than one way of dealing with something. This isn't unique to the railway, it happens everywhere. Take driving to fast - you can:

1. Be shown discresion and be let off
2. Be offered a speed awareness course
3. Be given a fixed penalty notice
4. Be summonsed to court

Agreed and at the risk of going even further off topic the course of action is (usually) dictated by the degree of speeding (amount over the limit) and prior behaviours e.g. you will not be offered a speed awareness course if you have attended one previously within x years.

 

[jfollows]

The original poster @MSim88 hasn’t returned since post 3 above, so it’s only a guess what happened after, but I’d hazard a guess that the £131.10 was paid on Monday.

 

[1D54]

And not been online since 23:09 on Sunday. It'd be nice if he/she came back on to simply say the amount owing has been paid.

 

[MSim88]

MSim88, I can see this incident really, really gnawed at you. Mainly due to the behaviour of the person we are calling the inspector, and how he didn't believe what you said. Unfortunately that member of rail staff will meet lots of fare evaders in his daily life, have a thick skin, and won't hugely care about the impact his words and actions have on others. I suspect it's quite difficult to do that role with buckets of sensitivity and diplomacy always on the ready. For those cases where exactly that happens, we see another problem - having been nicely treated by the inspector, several weeks later the traveller gets a version of the letter above and is shocked by the contents and threat to go to court. Some of them threaten prison, which really is wrong of them (it never happens).

When something gnaws at you like this then the thought of paying £131 adds insult to the very real injury you got from the events on the train. I suspect the incident constantly repeats itself in your head. Here's the bad bit: SWR fundamentally has the law on their side, you can't get on a train without a ticket and if that means waiting an hour, so be it. I regret how this escalated, and it should have been handled much better with a simple payment of the missing fare or a £50 Penalty Fare. You should pay up, but I notice the words you used in your question number 3. So I suspect you inwardly recognise that it doesn't matter - SWR can have their pound of flesh. So I would pay immediately but continue to lobby SWR to refund the £120 due to the shabby turn of events. That fee is lower than some other train companies.

Going forward, and taking note of being at risk in conflict situations, all the stations on that line have the Touch Smartcard readers on the platform. This requires a simple touch in and out, and allows you to be charged no more than the on-the-day fares. Maybe have that as a standby card in your purse.

I appreciate this reply Pushpit, as you did a good job of seeing things from my shoes

That was on the day especially the thing that got to me most, that he wasn’t believing me that I ran on and barely made it on. I was still panting from running for 3 minutes straight to make the train when he got to me! He was in the same carriage I entered on, walking up to me moments after I got on and Sat down. It felt like he didn’t care for what I had to say, and perhaps he didn’t. But it was still something that got to me as I have never had an exchange like that before.

He said to me I was giving him attitude, and I replied I wasn’t. I expressed I was talking out of frustration and stress that he wasn’t believing me that it’s a different thing. I felt he treated me badly, and from what I read on the other forum posts it seems to be a regular thing with Inspectors to do so?, Whether that is part of their Job and the people they come across, I don’t know but personally I couldn’t imagine talking to someone I dont know the way he did, and then proceeding to lie when its clear the person is upset.

When you say lobby SWR for the £120, what do you mean and how would I even go about talking to them? I didn’t see any options on my letter for this
Others have mentioned in this thread they wouldn’t give it any time of day anyway?

Thanks for the Touch Smartcard suggestion, I will look into that

1. The letter is offering you an opportunity to settle out of court, in lieu of prosecution.
You've not been issued a Penalty Fare, you have been reported to the prosecutions office for not having a ticket. They mention that they are considering prosecuting under either railway byelaws or the Regulation Of Railways Act 1889, the latter being more serious and would result in a criminal record. You would not be able to appeal a Penalty Fare, as you haven't been issued one.

2.You should accept the out of court settlement as you were in the wrong. Byelaw prosecutions are for strict liability offences and if what you say is correct, they likely have all of the evidence needed for that or they could go for a RORA Prosecution which if you are convicted, would result in a criminal record, as mentioned earlier. You being in a hurry doesn't negate your responsibility to buy a ticket before you boarded at Pokesdown.

3. It's difficult to say, but details of the incident are likely to be admitted from what the Officer has reported. There may also be body-worn surveillance footage that the Officer filmed of the incident, which is why it's very important that you tell us the full truth here.

Again, it's difficult to say for definite, but SWR are considering a Byelaw prosecution or a RORA1889 one. For the former, all that would be needed to be proven was that you boarded a train at a station with purchasing facilities and had not been able to present a valid ticket to an Officer of the railway. For a RORA, there would be a slightly heavier burden of proof and SWR would try to prove intent to avoid paying the fare.

In summary, I'd advise you to accept the settlement offer and move forwards from the matter and buy tickets before boarding, as SWR said to you, the option to settle out of court may not be offered to you a second time if you are caught without a valid ticket again.

Everything I have posted in the OP is the full truth of what happened on the day and my feelings since, I didn’t see a body-worn camera on the individual on the day but it wouldn’t matter if there was, I have been honest with everything.

The Dishonesty is only with him, as I genuinely believe he lied about not seeing me running to get on the train and then put the Station he approached me at over 2 stations past the station he actually approached me at.

Not that any of this matters by the Law itself, as I now know.
I did not know it wasn’t allowed to buy a ticket on the train, as I have done it before and the conductor was happy to help

I can confirm that I did pay the fee, late on the Sunday after reading the first two replies to this thread, As others have said chalked up to experience.

First things first. What was the actual journey? Where does the £11.10 fare come from? Is it the correct fare?

I travelled from Pokesdown to Beaulieu Road which usually costs me £7.30,
The ticket on any Sunday at 14:10 should be £7.30 but perhaps it doesn’t matter with this case and the fare is full fare charged
I’m not sure

The problem is here, again, that the railway is not consistent with their behaviour.

There seems to be at least 3 mechanisms the railway can use in these cases:

1) sell the ticket with no problem, which the OP got before
2) issue a PF
3) start criminal prosecutions

It is an enormous range of consequences to have when there was clearly no intent in this case to evade the fare or cause the railway any loss.

Obviously I understand that not everyone is honest here and there is significant scope for people to game the system. But it seems almost unbelievable that one day you can get a ticket on board with a smile and the next day be facing criminal court action.

I still don't really know why sometimes people get PF and sometimes people get investigated. It seems completely arbitrary.

I suspect this will all end in tears at some point in the future fwiw for the rail companies, just like SJP did.

Thankyou for this reply mrmartin,
I do agree that it seems to be a little random from the other cases I have read on these forums too when compared to what happened to me

I did think to myself perhaps I was unlucky that it went straight to worst case for me

The original poster @MSim88 hasn’t returned since post 3 above, so it’s only a guess what happened after, but I’d hazard a guess that the £131.10 was paid on Monday.

And not been online since 23:09 on Sunday. It'd be nice if he/she came back on to simply say the amount owing has been paid.

I apologise for the late replies to the Thread Jfollows and 1D54, It’s just been a busy couple of days for me

I appreciate all the replies, advice and feedback and wish you all a Happy New Years

 

[jfollows]

I apologise for the late replies to the Thread Jfollows and 1D54, It’s just been a busy couple of days for me

I appreciate all the replies, advice and feedback and wish you all a Happy New Years

No apologies needed, it’s been your problem and not mine, and I hope our input helped you decide what to do.
Thank you for your feedback also. It also helps us give advice in future.

 

[Haywain]

I travelled from Pokesdown to Beaulieu Road which usually costs me £7.30,
The ticket on any Sunday at 14:10 should be £7.30 but perhaps it doesn’t matter with this case and the fare is full fare charged
I’m not sure

The fare used for the settlement is the 'full' fare, an Anytime Day Single at £11.10.

 

[Pushpit]

I appreciate this reply Pushpit, as you did a good job of seeing things from my shoes

That was on the day especially the thing that got to me most, that he wasn’t believing me that I ran on and barely made it on. I was still panting from running for 3 minutes straight to make the train when he got to me! He was in the same carriage I entered on, walking up to me moments after I got on and Sat down. It felt like he didn’t care for what I had to say, and perhaps he didn’t. But it was still something that got to me as I have never had an exchange like that before.

He said to me I was giving him attitude, and I replied I wasn’t. I expressed I was talking out of frustration and stress that he wasn’t believing me that it’s a different thing. I felt he treated me badly, and from what I read on the other forum posts it seems to be a regular thing with Inspectors to do so?, Whether that is part of their Job and the people they come across, I don’t know but personally I couldn’t imagine talking to someone I dont know the way he did, and then proceeding to lie when its clear the person is upset.

When you say lobby SWR for the £120, what do you mean and how would I even go about talking to them? I didn’t see any options on my letter for this
Others have mentioned in this thread they wouldn’t give it any time of day anyway?

Thanks for the Touch Smartcard suggestion, I will look into that

Thank you so much for coming back. I suspect there will be other people who would go through the same experience and will perhaps draw help comfort from your account. You may have helped someone else here. It was the right thing to do to pay off SWR, strategically, even though I agree with your implication - it was the wrong way for SWR to treat a customer. Different inspectors have different approaches, and I do know of RPIs, to use the jargon, who are considerate, pragmatic and balanced in their approach. Other RPIs seem to have a operational method which is based on a start point of disbelieving every thing told to them. And to be fair RPIs do meet plenty of chronic liars every day, it's just that you are not one of them.

Having paid up, I think it's an option to lobby SWR to refund the £120. Partly because I suspect the world of private prosecutions is going to change, so that if you have a letter of protest in the system, this may help when train companies get their past history put under the spot light. Partly because for some people it's a release mechanism. So you disagree with the out of court settlement but rationally you know it makes sense to pay up rather than risk a court appearance. This annoys you, and it would annoy me. One way to release this inner tension is to write to SWR management, perhaps point out this thread, and bring it to their attention that this was not the right way to treat you. Realistically it may not get you anywhere, but as they say up here, shy bairns get nowt. Other forum members have disagreed, but I stick by this suggestion.

 

[methecooldude]

Not that any of this matters by the Law itself, as I now know.
I did not know it wasn’t allowed to buy a ticket on the train, as I have done it before and the conductor was happy to help

So I just want to clarify this for you, as an SWR guard myself (maybe we've met, maybe not). It sounds like you bumped in to a Revenue Protection Inspector (or RPI), they issue the Penalty Fares if deemed so be suitable or report for prosecution, they cannot issue a ticket (however, *might* send you to the Guard who will)
You may have previously purchased a ticket from a Guard such as myself, we can only either issue tickets, or send a report for prosecution, as you can probably tell, I dont want to spend my whole trip tapping out reports, so issuing tickets is the simplest way of dealing with it (honestly, if I did a report for everyone who doesn't have a ticket between Pokedown and Totton, I would be adding another 50 per day to the prosecution departments pile), hopefully that explains why there is a difference there. Anyway, to be clear, you should buy your ticket from the ticket machine at Pokesdown, from the ticket office, or on your phone before you board the train.

I travelled from Pokesdown to Beaulieu Road which usually costs me £7.30,
The ticket on any Sunday at 14:10 should be £7.30 but perhaps it doesn’t matter with this case and the fare is full fare charged
I’m not sure

Indeed £11.10 is the full Anytime single from Poksdown to Beaulieu Rd.

Thankyou for this reply mrmartin,
I do agree that it seems to be a little random from the other cases I have read on these forums too when compared to what happened to me

I think my writing above clarifies that a little bit