Future of the 350/2s

[FlyingPotato]

Class 350s are of limited use in Scotland because they are 4 car units.

The oldest EMUs in Scotland, most in need of replacement, are classes 318 and 320, which are 3 car units.

I think Scotrail have some ex class 321s reduced from 4 cars to 3. Is that possible with a class 350? If both non driving cars carry essential equipment then it is a no.

I don't think it's possible to reform to 3 cars based on what I've seen other people post on this form unfortunately

 

[Falcon1200]

Class 350s are of limited use in Scotland because they are 4 car units.

The oldest EMUs in Scotland, most in need of replacement, are classes 318 and 320, which are 3 car units.

318s and 320s (and 334s) are of course 3-car sets, whereas 350s are 4; However there are areas where a 4-car could usefully replace a 3-car, for example on the Ayrshire and Inverclyde routes. 3 and 4-car Class 380 sets already work on those lines, and elsewhere, so going to all 4-car would not be a major problem; Those few trains booked 7-car 380 could simply remain as such.

 

[Peter0124]

If any routes were to take them, I'd give them to the Neilstons since they are usually 4 car 380s, and some EK workings.

 

[N1]

As always need to remember the unit lengths. 318s, 320s, 334s and 350s are 20m. 380s and 385s are 23m. Therefore an 8-car 350 is the same length as a 7-car 380. In my opinion, best option is to take 350s to replace 318s. Any spare 350s not required should be converted to Battery (for Scotrail/Transport Scotland) as a proof of concept. If it works, then they can be put to work on Maryhill line, Kilmarnock and Girvan Services (all dependent on range).

 

[Falcon1200]

Therefore an 8-car 350 is the same length as a 7-car 380.

Even better; Bring on the 350s!

 

[DanNCL]

My idea would be for 350/2s to work the following:
Cathcart Circle
Newton via Mount Florida
Newton via Maxwell Park
Neilston
East Kilbride (once wired)
Barrhead
Paisley Canal
Lanark

That would allow the 318s to be withdrawn, 320s to be dedicated to the North Clyde and Argyle lines alongside the 334s, 380s to work everything via Paisley Gilmour Street, and 385s to be concentrated on routes from Edinburgh and Queen Street.

 

[JonathanH]

In my opinion, best option is to take 350s to replace 318s.

318s may be a few years older than 320s but essentially they will be seen as the same fleet by now. There doesn't appear to be an obvious reason to replace 318s ahead of 320s.

 

[D365]

I don't think it's possible to reform to 3 cars based on what I've seen other people post on this form unfortunately

It is possible if Porterbrook deems it so.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

In my opinion. 350/2 to Scotrail wouldn't happen as I think that Scotrail will order more 385s. 350/2s to Northern I wouldn't think that it will happen as they got the 323s that replaced the 319s and it has still got a good 10 years of service left in them. I wouldn't think that Southern would get the 350/2s as the trains don't have the shoes on the bogies so I would say no to that. 350/2s maybe to GWR but that is a really small possibility. I may be totally wrong and something could pop up and leave me with egg on my face.

 

[DanNCL]

318s may be a few years older than 320s but essentially they will be seen as the same fleet by now. There doesn't appear to be an obvious reason to replace 318s ahead of 320s.

They’re a common fleet now but for the first 25 years of the 318s operational lives they were operated as a completely separate fleet. The 318s replaced 311s and first generation DMUs and spent 15 years on the Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines, then ran alongside the 334s on the Inverclyde and Argyle lines for 10 years. The 320s on the other hand replaced 303s and for 20 years were almost exclusively used on the North Clyde line. It was only when the 380s arrived and the 318s and 334s were concentrated on the low level lines that the 318s and 320s began to be treated as a common fleet. Their early use on the Ayrshire routes combined with their older age means they probably have quite a lot of extra miles on the clock compared to the 320s.

In my opinion. 350/2 to Scotrail wouldn't happen as I think that Scotrail will order more 385s. 350/2s to Northern I wouldn't think that it will happen as they got the 323s that replaced the 319s and it has still got a good 10 years of service left in them. I wouldn't think that Southern would get the 350/2s as the trains don't have the shoes on the bogies so I would say no to that. 350/2s maybe to GWR but that is a really small possibility. I may be totally wrong and something could pop up and leave me with egg on my face.

Hitachi don’t have capacity to build any more 385s for a long time, Lumo have just taken the slots at Newton Aycliffe that were available between now and the HS2 order.

 

[JonathanH]

Their early use on the Ayrshire routes combined with their older age means they probably have quite a lot of extra miles on the clock compared to the 320s.

You are completely right. However, my point is whether miles on the clock are the key determinant of end of life for two fleets which are similar and are now managed effectively as one fleet.

 

[Russel]

Has there been any talk of them heading to Scotland or is it purly speculation?

 

[Peter0124]

I would rather they replaced the 320s as the 318s on a comfort level are much superior. I try and go for them if the two are paired together.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

They’re a common fleet now but for the first 25 years of the 318s operational lives they were operated as a completely separate fleet. The 318s replaced 311s and first generation DMUs and spent 15 years on the Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines, then ran alongside the 334s on the Inverclyde and Argyle lines for 10 years. The 320s on the other hand replaced 303s and for 20 years were almost exclusively used on the North Clyde line. It was only when the 380s arrived and the 318s and 334s were concentrated on the low level lines that the 318s and 320s began to be treated as a common fleet. Their early use on the Ayrshire routes combined with their older age means they probably have quite a lot of extra miles on the clock compared to the 320s.


Hitachi don’t have capacity to build any more 385s for a long time, Lumo have just taken the slots at Newton Aycliffe that were available between now and the HS2 order.

Well, Dan. It could be that Scotrail could end up using another supplier to build their trains like Stadler, Alstom, CAF, or Seimens. It may end up happening that way.

 

[JonathanH]

Has there been any talk of them heading to Scotland or is it purly speculation?

I don't think it has been written about in the railway press so purely forum speculation, largely driven by an observation about the 318 fleet now being the only AC electric fleet built in the 1980s and the electric wires having extended in Scotland without an increase in the amount of electric rolling stock.

 

[DanNCL]

Well, Dan. It could be that Scotrail could end up using another supplier to build their trains like Stadler, Alstom, CAF, or Seimens. It may end up happening that way.

You specifically said 385s, if new trains were ordered from anyone other than Hitachi they wouldn’t be 385s they’d be something else.

 

[800001]

They’re a common fleet now but for the first 25 years of the 318s operational lives they were operated as a completely separate fleet. The 318s replaced 311s and first generation DMUs and spent 15 years on the Ayrshire and Inverclyde lines, then ran alongside the 334s on the Inverclyde and Argyle lines for 10 years. The 320s on the other hand replaced 303s and for 20 years were almost exclusively used on the North Clyde line. It was only when the 380s arrived and the 318s and 334s were concentrated on the low level lines that the 318s and 320s began to be treated as a common fleet. Their early use on the Ayrshire routes combined with their older age means they probably have quite a lot of extra miles on the clock compared to the 320s.


Hitachi don’t have capacity to build any more 385s for a long time, Lumo have just taken the slots at Newton Aycliffe that were available between now and the HS2 order.

I think Hitachi could still manage 385s while building Lumo 13 trains.
Remember when the 385s were built they were built alongside GWR IET 8XX fleet, and that was far greater number than Lumo are getting.

Also even if built alongside HS2 stock, Hst is only the shell and electrical wiring of the trains before they move to Derby for internal fitting. .

 

[Transilien]

I think Hitachi could still manage 385s while building Lumo 13 trains.
Remember when the 385s were built they were built alongside GWR IET 8XX fleet, and that was far greater number than Lumo are getting.

Also even if built alongside HS2 stock, Hst is only the shell and electrical wiring of the trains before they move to Derby for internal fitting. .

I'm pretty sure that Hitachi do have the capacity to build more UK trains but are not interested. I am also pretty sure that the prices of Hitachi trains have increaced (resulting in LNER's procurement of CAF units instead of just more IETs). The 385s haven't been in production for a while too so I don't think it would be the best option for Scotrail just to buy more 385s.

 

[Discuss223]

The 350/2 shouldn't be going off lease. They need a clean up but should be chugging up and down the southern WCML for many years to come.

I was reading that Class 350/2s will be coming out of service soon. It seems a shame given their young age and with other parts of the network in need of rolling stock. What they could do is convert them to diesel, possibly reform them to 3 car sets and for example, they could go to TransPennine Express and strengthen their services, as they are similar, design wise to Class 185s. Another option could be to convert to diesel and keep as 4 coach sets, using them on the Norwich-Liverpool Lime Street route, replacing the ageing and short of availability Class 158s, which as at the moment there are only enough of to run 2 carriages between Nottingham and Norwich, a journey time of well over an hour that does get rather busy.

What are your thoughts on the future of Class 350/2?

 

[I'm here now]

Use them on the Kilbride route, once electrification is done.

 

[HST43257]

Sounds as if Northern (especially post-TRU) is a real possibility. I’m all for it - as more and more parts of the network hopefully get electrified (think Hyde/Rose Hill/New Mills, Warrington Central, Atherton) there should be EMUs ready to take their place

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds as if Northern (especially post-TRU) is a real possibility. I’m all for it

It might need more platform extensions to run as 8-car but I think Northern does make sense. The 323s will get unreliable and are very dated with no aircon.

 

[HST43257]

It might need more platform extensions to run as 8-car but I think Northern does make sense.

I feel like 8s aren’t necessarily what’s needed. If there’s a core fleet of 4s and 6s (2x3s) I can’t believe there’d be anywhere near the current level of capacity complaints. Presumably also allows for other services to come back, like the Manchester to Preston slow

 

[Bletchleyite]

I feel like 8s aren’t necessarily what’s needed. If there’s a core fleet of 4s and 6s (2x3s) I can’t believe there’d be anywhere near the current level of capacity complaints. Presumably also allows for other services to come back, like the Manchester to Preston slow

Remember that they are 4x20m which is broadly equivalent to 3x24m. (8m shorter but two more sets of doors per unit side which is probably close to 3-4 of that 8m...)

 

[HST43257]

Remember that they are 4x20m which is broadly equivalent to 3x24m. (8m shorter but two more sets of doors per unit side which is probably close to 3-4 of that 8m...)

True good point. May be ok as they are on the quieter routes/currently 2-3 car diesel - Any scope to reform as 6s or something? Or maybe 5s and 3s, then 3s become 6. I just feel that not enough routes require anywhere near 8x350 or 6x331

 

[JLH4AC]

Use them on the Kilbride route, once electrification is done.

Yeah, the class 350s being cascaded up to Scotland to displace the Sprinters and Mark 3 EMUs would be much better than converting them into diesel units.

 

[D365]

I was reading that Class 350/2s will be coming out of service soon. It seems a shame given their young age and with other parts of the network in need of rolling stock. What they could do is convert them to diesel, possibly reform them to 3 car sets and for example, they could go to TransPennine Express and strengthen their services, as they are similar, design wise to Class 185s. Another option could be to convert to diesel and keep as 4 coach sets, using them on the Norwich-Liverpool Lime Street route, replacing the ageing and short of availability Class 158s, which as at the moment there are only enough of to run 2 carriages between Nottingham and Norwich, a journey time of well over an hour that does get rather busy.

What are your thoughts on the future of Class 350/2?

None of these ideas are being mooted by Porterbrook. I‘m not aware that even a battery retrofit is on the cards.

 

[James Kevill]

I was reading that Class 350/2s will be coming out of service soon. It seems a shame given their young age and with other parts of the network in need of rolling stock. What they could do is convert them to diesel, possibly reform them to 3 car sets and for example, they could go to TransPennine Express and strengthen their services, as they are similar, design wise to Class 185s. Another option could be to convert to diesel and keep as 4 coach sets, using them on the Norwich-Liverpool Lime Street route, replacing the ageing and short of availability Class 158s, which as at the moment there are only enough of to run 2 carriages between Nottingham and Norwich, a journey time of well over an hour that does get rather busy.

What are your thoughts on the future of Class 350/2?

Maybe the Class 350/2 Desiro fleets could be transferred to Northern Trains to operate the express services of Manchester Airport to Liverpool Lime Street and Blackpool North, and they have 110mph speed that will help to cut journey times, they have 4 carriages, and they also have the gangway doors so they can coupled up into 8 carriages. This will allow the Class 331 Civity fleets to move back to Yorkshire and operate Leeds to Doncaster, Airedale and Wharfedale Lines

 

[skyhigh]

and they have 110mph speed that will help to cut journey times

Is the line speed 110mph plus? If not, then it's not going to help much.

and they also have the gangway doors so they can coupled up into 8 carriages

You can still run a pair of units without gangway doors.

This will allow the Class 331 Civity fleets to move back to Yorkshire and operate Leeds to Doncaster, Airedale and Wharfedale Lines

There are already 331s in the East, more are moving when the platform extensions are complete. Unless you're going to retire the 333s there is no need for extra 331s.

 

[Rail Quest]

There's perhaps some evidence that Northern are actually considering these units. These movements tonight are being run by 350235 and I've heard rumours that they are test/proof runs potentially for Northern, hence them performing the Liverpool to Man Airport stopping pattern.

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