Future of the 350/2s

[Class450/4DES]

Not really realistic but I think 350/2's could work along the SWML onto the West of England Line. As well as fitting the current Class 450, 444 and even 458/4 fleet with pantographs as well. As the Class 158/159's are approaching their age and are in need of a replacement. Just fit the 350/2's with 3rd rail shoes. It could work well for the electric spine whenever that happens too.
But the lack of progress means its never going to happen. So I doubt the 350/2's will be used for this. The most likely thing is that Northern are going to use them instead of them going to SWR or GBR Southern?

 

[JonathanH]

The most likely thing is that Northern are going to use them

Informed posters have been at pains to say that the most unlikely thing is that Northern are going to use them.

'Neptune' appears to have taken a break from commenting on this forum because too many people contradicted the information provided, but repeatedly told us that Northern's plans did not include 350s.

 

[Class450/4DES]

Informed posters have been at pains to say that the most unlikely thing is that Northern are going to use them.

'Neptune' appears to have taken a break from commenting on this forum because too many people contradicted the information provided, but repeatedly told us that Northern's plans did not include 350s.

Alright.

 

[Russel]

Ah that old 'it would only affect some passengers'. The factvit would sever southbound connection for the UK's 3rd largest city to anywhere in the south apart from London is conveniently ignored.

Hardly ignored...

If it meant more chance of a seat and a comfortable onward journey owing to Voyagers being freed up to increase capacity on the onward connection, I can't see many real world passengers having much of an issue with it.

And this is the same forum which routinely peddles the supposed need to *extend* the XC network back to marginal destinations, whilst in the same breath suggests splitting XC's busiest routes......

Personally, I have no issue pruning back the XC network, removing the Penzance/Aberdeen/other once a day nonsense destinations and focus on the core XC network.

 

[Snow1964]

I do wonder if the rather skint Scottish Government might consider them. The class 318s are 38 years old and the 320s 33-34 years old.

I know they have longer term aspirations for more standardised fleet (including BEMUs), but realistically is at least 4-5 years away and would probably continue to be built into late 2030s.

Even if they just replaced the 318s (which spent much of their life on a coastal line with salty air so might be corroding) they could probably push class 320 EMU replacement back into mid 2030s after dealing with replacing the 1980s DMU fleet

 

[JamesT]

I do wonder if the rather skint Scottish Government might consider them. The class 318s are 38 years old and the 320s 33-34 years old.

I know they have longer term aspirations for more standardised fleet (including BEMUs), but realistically is at least 4-5 years away and would probably continue to be built into late 2030s.

Even if they just replaced the 318s (which spent much of their life on a coastal line with salty air so might be corroding) they could probably push class 320 EMU replacement back into mid 2030s after dealing with replacing the 1980s DMU fleet

The 318s and 320s are 3-car units, would replacing them with 4-car 350s work? Thinking of things like platforms only long enough for 6 cars.

 

[Transilien]

The 318s and 320s are 3-car units, would replacing them with 4-car 350s work? Thinking of things like platforms only long enough for 6 cars.

Can't they just reduce the 350s down to 3-cars like they did in the conversion of 321s to 320s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't they just reduce the 350s down to 3-cars like they did in the conversion of 321s to 320s?

Not as simple due to distributed equipment (that's why it had to be 321s and not 319s).

 

[TheGrew]

While I like the idea of running 350/450s with batteries on the west of England line is there enough juice between Waterloo and Basingstoke to allow for this? They had to make power system upgrades when the 444/450s were first introduced as they drew too much power and even today I believe they are limited.

 

[Snow1964]

The 318s and 320s are 3-car units, would replacing them with 4-car 350s work? Thinking of things like platforms only long enough for 6 cars.

Potentially they could shuffle some of the other units around, there are number of newish electrified sections (and some more in progress), Barrhead, Stirling, Dalmeny, East Kilbride etc. so potentially might be better allocations. Some routes with 2x3car might be ok for a 4car, but too busy for a single 3car unit etc. I would have to leave it to a local to advise.

I think some routes have platforms for 3+4car 23m units, (about 161m), and a pair of 350s 2x4car 20m is about same length. Not sure which routes can take longer EMU formations with existing platform lengths

 

[Transilien]

I think some routes have platforms for 3+4car 23m units, (about 161m), and a pair of 350s 2x4car 20m is about same length. Not sure which routes can take longer EMU formations with existing platform lengths

The Ayrshire coast line can take 7car units in most of it's stations with selective door operation needed at some of the less used stations.

 

[brad465]

The latest RAIL edition has a column bit with a level of speculation that can rival some of the more obscure/outlandish ideas this forum often comes up with. The item, titled "Speculation over reuse of Class 350", includes the proposition they might be going to Northern to replace 323s, after being seen undergoing gauging trials there. It also suggests that 350/2s could be reworked into an intercity interior formation (while acknowledging the door setup can't be changed) to form the mooted Stirling-Euston Open Access Operator. This is after also suggesting the remaining 221s could all go to XC on top of the ones already confirmed to be, where they were previously considered for this OAO.

 

[Russel]

The latest RAIL edition has a column bit with a level of speculation that can rival some of the more obscure/outlandish ideas this forum often comes up with. The item, titled "Speculation over reuse of Class 350", includes the proposition they might be going to Northern to replace 323s, after being seen undergoing gauging trials there. It also suggests that 350/2s could be reworked into an intercity interior formation (while acknowledging the door setup can't be changed) to form the mooted Stirling-Euston Open Access Operator. This is after also suggesting the remaining 221s could all go to XC on top of the ones already confirmed to be, where they were previously considered for this OAO.

It would be a shame for nothing to happen with them, give them 2+2 seating with arm rests and they would make an idea inter-regional train.

 

[D365]

Not as simple due to distributed equipment (that's why it had to be 321s and not 319s).

But it is being considered as an option, as per the RAIL speculation above.

 

[stevieinselby]

Not as simple due to distributed equipment (that's why it had to be 321s and not 319s).

If that's a problem with the 350s, might it be easier with the 380s? As they are already in both 3- and 4-car variants. Then the 350s could go onto the diagrams currently worked by 4-car 380s, and the newly converted 3-car 380s could replace the 318s.

 

[JonathanH]

If that's a problem with the 350s, might it be easier with the 380s? As they are already in both 3- and 4-car variants. Then the 350s could go onto the diagrams currently worked by 4-car 380s, and the newly converted 3-car 380s could replace the 318s.

Not sure that works as the 380s have a long coach length than the 318s and 350s. The 318s don't specifically need to be replaced sooner than the 320s.

 

[skyhigh]

If that's a problem with the 350s, might it be easier with the 380s? As they are already in both 3- and 4-car variants. Then the 350s could go onto the diagrams currently worked by 4-car 380s, and the newly converted 3-car 380s could replace the 318s.

And scrap/store a load of 14 year old 380 coaches that would have no further use?

You are much more likely to find a home for the surplus 350s than a load of unwanted coaches...

 

[RailWonderer]

Send them to Scotrail and use SDO for coaches 1-6 on 8 car services. It's done all over the south east. No excuse for Scotrail not to unless either a) too expensive to lease or b) gauging issues where they hang over points and level crossings and such might prevent them taking them on.

 

[43096]

If that's a problem with the 350s, might it be easier with the 380s? As they are already in both 3- and 4-car variants. Then the 350s could go onto the diagrams currently worked by 4-car 380s, and the newly converted 3-car 380s could replace the 318s.

Doesn’t work. The 380s are 23m vehicles against the 20m of the 318/320 fleets. So you would have a problem at 120m platforms with 138m trains.

Does Greater Anglia need all its 720s? A 5-car 720 is 120m…

 

[800001]

The latest RAIL edition has a column bit with a level of speculation that can rival some of the more obscure/outlandish ideas this forum often comes up with. The item, titled "Speculation over reuse of Class 350", includes the proposition they might be going to Northern to replace 323s, after being seen undergoing gauging trials there. It also suggests that 350/2s could be reworked into an intercity interior formation (while acknowledging the door setup can't be changed) to form the mooted Stirling-Euston Open Access Operator. This is after also suggesting the remaining 221s could all go to XC on top of the ones already confirmed to be, where they were previously considered for this OAO.

Could the guaging trials in Manchester been as part of LNWR plans to extend to Victoria?

 

[stadler]

Send them to Scotrail and use SDO for coaches 1-6 on 8 car services. It's done all over the south east. No excuse for Scotrail not to unless either a) too expensive to lease or b) gauging issues where they hang over points and level crossings and such might prevent them taking them on.

Trains hanging over level crossings when they stopped at short platforms is not an issue. It happens every day at multiple stations on the Southern network. So i would not think that would be an issue.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The latest RAIL edition has a column bit with a level of speculation that can rival some of the more obscure/outlandish ideas this forum often comes up with. The item, titled "Speculation over reuse of Class 350", includes the proposition they might be going to Northern to replace 323s, after being seen undergoing gauging trials there. It also suggests that 350/2s could be reworked into an intercity interior formation (while acknowledging the door setup can't be changed) to form the mooted Stirling-Euston Open Access Operator. This is after also suggesting the remaining 221s could all go to XC on top of the ones already confirmed to be, where they were previously considered for this OAO.

The report is wide of the mark regarding Euston-Stirling. With all due respect to Neptune, the DfT are now making the decisions about what stock is going where. If they decide 350/2 are going to Northern, that’s where they will go, either as straight EMU or BEMU, the latter to help replace some 15x stock.

 

[Wolfie]

The report is wide of the mark regarding Euston-Stirling. With all due respect to Neptune, the DfT are now making the decisions about what stock is going where. If they decide 350/2 are going to Northern, that’s where they will go, either as straight EMU or BEMU, the latter to help replace some 15x stock.

Yes and no. DfT can obviously plan but unless a satisfactory financial offer is in place the ROSCO doesn't have to accept.

 

[185]

Yes and no. DfT can obviously plan but unless a satisfactory financial offer is in place the ROSCO doesn't have to accept.

My opinion... at present the ROSCOs seem to desperately friendly towards the DfT, perhaps in order to prevent/prolong their own demise ie- don't think they're willing to get hard faced with the DfT.

 

[Wolfie]

My opinion... at present the ROSCOs seem to desperately friendly towards the DfT, perhaps in order to prevent/prolong their own demise ie- don't think they're willing to get hard faced with the DfT.

Hard faced? I agree. Crapped on though? Nope.

 

[Snow1964]

My opinion... at present the ROSCOs seem to desperately friendly towards the DfT, perhaps in order to prevent/prolong their own demise ie- don't think they're willing to get hard faced with the DfT.

They are not stupid, they deal with International Financial markets.

They would have worked out Government could start ordering big framework orders of standard designs and selling them to newcomers to lease out. Or worse nationalise them with compensation at the price levels they inherited BR fleets.

They must also have worked out that off-lease fleets are a potential risk if they upset DfT and act too commercially holding out for big money by restricting supply. Until they are fairly confident that Government won't undermine their business longer term, they need to tread carefully.

So the hoarding of newer usable fleets is probably close to end, already got 379s back, although not formally announced looks like 175s and mk5s have new homes, so 350s and remaining 221s might soon follow to pacify DfT

 

[absolutelymilk]

Returning to the topic of whether SR have enough EMU's to run a full electric service once the EK line is electrified.... I reviewed information on Real Train Times to see the utilisation of EMUs in the morning and afternoon peaks from one day in October (full timetable). Overall (and if wiki is correct in SR having a total of 203 EMUs), there were 23 units not used in the morning peak and 27 not used in the afternoon/early evening peak. Drilling down to class 380s there were 5 unused in the morning and 3 in the afternoon. For 385s it was 9 and 12 respectively, 334s 4 and 6, 320s 4 and 6, and 318s 1 and zero respectively. It was a lot of info to plough through so I accept my data might not be 100% but close to it, plus this was a single day snapshot.

On the assumption that some classes can be moved around the network i.e. using 380s for EK with other units covering existing allocated patterns, and with the EK line requiring up to a maximum of 5 x 6 carriage EMUs (or perhaps a mixture of 3 and 6 carriages)?, does that leave the electrified line reliant on some mix of DMU + EMUs to run the existing timetable? Or can the current 203 EMU fleet support 100% EMUs on the EK line without compromising overall SR EMU resilience with respect to normal maintenance and back up units? Or would SR need to squeeze some existing EMU 6 carriage services down to 3?
Otherwise it's going to be pretty weird/bit of a PR embarrassment having DMUs running under the wires for a few years until whenever TS/SR get some new EMUs to replace the 318/320s....
Welcome thoughts from those more informed than me (I don't work in the industry).

Possibly needs a separate thread, but is there any technical reason that the Class 350s going off-lease from LNWR couldn't be used up in Scotland? (Either directly on the EK line or indirectly on other lines to allow a stock cascade)

 

[92002]

Possibly needs a separate thread, but is there any technical reason that the Class 350s going off-lease from LNWR couldn't be used up in Scotland? (Either directly on the EK line or indirectly on other lines to allow a stock cascade)

Probably not, they are an earlier version of the 380. No doubt a suitable deal can be struck with the leasing Company.

 

[Starmill]

It would probably be very awkward to use them in multiple or without a conductor, but then neither of those things is really necessary anyway. But it'd be a small number of units only and they'd have to cough up a lot which isn't really within the current operating budget. Hiring them all may achieve a lower unit cost but that's not much use if there's little space to maintain them in or routes to deploy them on.

 

[Magdalia]

Possibly needs a separate thread, but is there any technical reason that the Class 350s going off-lease from LNWR couldn't be used up in Scotland? (Either directly on the EK line or indirectly on other lines to allow a stock cascade)

Class 350s are of limited use in Scotland because they are 4 car units.

The oldest EMUs in Scotland, most in need of replacement, are classes 318 and 320, which are 3 car units.

I think Scotrail have some ex class 321s reduced from 4 cars to 3. Is that possible with a class 350? If both non driving cars carry essential equipment then it is a no.