Penalty fare for 2 railcards when I only selected 1

[bdt2712]

Hi,

My girlfriend and I were travelling to Birmingham and I’d booked the tickets on trainline using my railcard which I have. My girlfriend however does not have a railcard and evidently both the tickets were purchased with a railcard, which was unknown to me. As I just added my railcard and purchased both the tickets. How does this happen and can I appeal this? As I am still not sure how this happened or how I am receiving a fine for booking tickets with my railcard, is it a system issue?

Additionally, our tickets were checked by a staff member on the train and they didn’t mention anything of this, which is why it was even more of a surprise when we were stopped at the station, could this be included in the appeal?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I have never experienced anything like this before and am feeling hard done by to be honest.

Thanks

 

[methecooldude]

How did you purchase the tickets? Trainline?

Also, what Railcard do you have?

 

[74A]

You say you are receiving a fine. Do you mean your girlfriend ? As she is the one without a railcard. She will have to deal with the issue not you.

 

[Titfield]

Please can you post up any letter / chit you have received or been given with any personal details and reference number obscured?

This will inform the advice we can give.

Thank you.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

My girlfriend and I were travelling to Birmingham and I’d booked the tickets on trainline using my railcard which I have. My girlfriend however does not have a railcard and evidently both the tickets were purchased with a railcard, which was unknown to me. As I just added my railcard and purchased both the tickets. How does this happen and can I appeal this? As I am still not sure how this happened or how I am receiving a fine for booking tickets with my railcard, is it a system issue?

Additionally, our tickets were checked by a staff member on the train and they didn’t mention anything of this, which is why it was even more of a surprise when we were stopped at the station, could this be included in the appeal?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I have never experienced anything like this before and am feeling hard done by to be honest.

Thanks

I can’t immediately think of obvious grounds for your Girlfriend to appeal a penalty fare in this scenario but do not miss the prompt payment discount deadline. £50 reduction.

But do let experts here check it out via uploads of paperwork.

If it’s any comfort a Penalty Fare is the least worst sanction for this. Railcard problems like this often get reported for further investigation at the back office in case you have made the mistake on numerous occasions, then they ask for new tickets for all previous detected instances with c£150 admin fee for which there’s no right of appeal and all done under threat of court prosecution for what is in fact a ticket offence.

 

[bdt2712]

How did you purchase the tickets? Trainline?

Also, what Railcard do you have?

Yes trainline and a 16-25 railcard

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...both the tickets were purchased with a railcard, which was unknown to me. As I just added my railcard and purchased both the tickets. How does this happen and can I appeal this?...

@bdt2712. Welcome to the forum. Doubt you can successfully appeal this. Reckon that you should have more carefully checked what tickets you were buying / had bought, at the time that you did so, before travelling.

As @WesternLancer has already observed, reckon your girlfriend will likely get asked, in due course, to pay the full, undiscounted fare due (= £18.50 if it was a single from Hinckley to Birmingham), plus an admin fee on top, and it would probably be best for the relationship if you then fully reimburse her for the total cost incurred, as it's essentially you that has landed her in it! Good luck!

 

[MotCO]

Sometimes you can appeal if the Penalty Fare was not correctly filled out. If you post a copy of it with personal details obscured, we can check.

 

[bdt2712]

This is the letter we got in the day - is it worth screenshotting the notice details that are online?
Also it says Nuneaton on there which is wrong, we travelled from Hinckley? But i dont imagine that really matters

Sometimes you can appeal if the Penalty Fare was not correctly filled out. If you post a copy of it with personal details obscured, we can check.

 

[MotCO]

Also it says Nuneaton on there which is wrong, we travelled from Hinckley? But i dont imagine that really matters

Actually it does matter. Did you tell the inspector you travelled from Hinckley, or was Nuneaton the station just before you were apprehended? Do you have evidence that you travelled from Hinckley - e.g. tap in, car park, home address?

 

[bdt2712]

Actually it does matter. Did you tell the inspector you travelled from Hinckley, or was Nuneaton the station just before you were apprehended? Do you have evidence that you travelled from Hinckley - e.g. tap in, car park, home address?

Okay, yeah we did tell him and our tickets were from Hinckley to Birmingham, so have proof of that. We went from Hinckley to Nuneaton to Coleshill then finished at. Birmingham New street

 

[Cuthbert]

We went from Hinckley to Nuneaton to Coleshill then finished at. Birmingham New street

Stayed on the same service with Cross Country I assume and not change at those locations?
Cos I do know Cross Country go right through to BHM.

 

[bdt2712]

Stayed on the same service with Cross Country I assume and not change at those locations?
Cos I do know Cross Country go right through to BHM.

Yeah we stayed on the train all the way to birmingham and just made stops at those stations

 

[Snow1964]

Yes trainline and a 16-25 railcard

Trainline doesn't allow you to buy multiple tickets with different railcards, except as separate items added to the basket.

If you say needed 3 tickets, a 16-25 railcard, a senior railcard, and one with no railcard, forced to do it 3 times. The railcard drop-down when selected applies to all tickets, cannot select numbers in each category unlike airline booking. (And yes it uses railcard in singular, rather than railcards, which is probably why you thought it would give you one railcard discount).

Personally not a fan of Trainline, because it can mislead (or you have to open help pop up to know what they mean, even if it's not what you intended)

I suggest you pay the penalty whilst it is discounted to £50 from train operator. And if Trainline misled you by specifying railcard in singular, rather than all, then you could complain to them (but you might struggle to get compensation, as others have found not easiest organisation to deal with)

 

[pelli]

Trainline doesn't allow you to buy multiple tickets with different railcards, except as separate items added to the basket.

If you say needed 3 tickets, a 16-25 railcard, a senior railcard, and one with no railcard, forced to do it 3 times. The railcard drop-down when selected applies to all tickets, cannot select numbers in each category unlike airline booking. (And yes it uses railcard in singular, rather than railcards, which is probably why you thought it would give you one railcard discount).

That is not correct - are you perhaps thinking of TrainSplit?

Here is an example search on the Trainline App for Hinckley to Birmingham New Street for 3 adults with a 16-17 Saver (50% off) and a 16-25 Railcard (33% off). The total price offered is £35.50, which is 1 + 0.5 + 0.66 times the Off-Peak Day Single price of £16.40. (The web interface is the same.)


In fact, if you want to add the same railcard for all three people then you have to tap the railcard three times:

 

[furlong]

I think it's worth checking the precise journey details. A Crosscountry train direct from Hinckley to New Street?
If you boarded at Hinckley, any PF under the regulations must have been issued from Hinckley not Nuneaton (and we know of no way around that requirement). (And are there even PF notices at Hinckley anyway bearing operator logos capable of meeting the requirements?)

 

[John Palmer]

I think it's worth checking the precise journey details. A Crosscountry train direct from Hinckley to New Street?
If you boarded at Hinckley, any PF under the regulations must have been issued from Hinckley not Nuneaton (and we know of no way around that requirement). (And are there even PF notices at Hinckley anyway bearing operator logos capable of meeting the requirements?)

I agree, subject to no boarding of the train at Nuneaton being involved. Details of the journey made and the train service(s) used are important here.

National Rail Enquiries shows a single fare of £9.70 for a Hinckley to New Street journey on Saturday 28th December by means of the 1536 direct service, and a fare of £13.70 for a Nuneaton to New Street journey by means of the same service. This means that £13.70 appears to be the correct 'full applicable fare' for a Nuneaton to New Street journey on a Saturday, so the amount of the penalty fare seems to be correct if your girlfriend boarded at Nuneaton, but not if she boarded at Hinckley.

 

[bdt2712]

I agree, subject to no boarding of the train at Nuneaton being involved. Details of the journey made and the train service(s) used are important here.

National Rail Enquiries shows a single fare of £9.70 for a Hinckley to New Street journey on Saturday 28th December by means of the 1536 direct service, and a fare of £13.70 for a Nuneaton to New Street journey by means of the same service. This means that £13.70 appears to be the correct 'full applicable fare' for a Nuneaton to New Street journey on a Saturday, so the amount of the penalty fare seems to be correct if your girlfriend boarded at Nuneaton, but not if she boarded at Hinckley.

She boarded with me at Hinckley

 

[furlong]

Appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations that state:

9(1A) In respect of England, where a penalty fare is charged under regulation 5(1) to a person
travelling by, present on, or leaving a train, the amount of the penalty fare is—
(a) £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable,
...
(2) In paragraph (1), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in
question from the boarding station...
...
(3) In paragraph (2) and (2A), “the boarding station” means—
(a) the station at which the person boarded the train

 

[bdt2712]

Appeal on the grounds that it wasn't issued in accordance with the regulations that state:

That’s really helpful, thank you. Would I just quote the regulations directly in the appeal? With the reason being that our penalty notice states the boarding station was Nuneaton however the actual boarding station was Hinckley and this has been recorded incorrectly

 

[John Palmer]

"That’s really helpful, thank you. Would I just quote the regulations directly in the appeal? With the reason being that our penalty notice states the boarding station was Nuneaton however the actual boarding station was Hinckley and this has been recorded incorrectly"

Yes. The Regulations don't explicitly require the boarding station to be specified, but it needs to appear on the PFN in order to demonstrate that the correct 'Full Single Fare applicable' has been charged, because a statement of the amount of the penalty fare does have to appear on the PFN. If an incorrectly specified boarding station produces the wrong 'Full Single Fare applicable' element of the penalty fare (as here, apparently), then the penalty fare has not been charged in accordance with the Regulations.

Also cite the relevant passages in Regulation 16 of the Penalty Fares Regulations (which applies to a first stage appeal):

“(2) An appeal under this regulation must be made—

(a) in accordance with the Appeal Procedure; and

(b) on one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (3).”

Followed by:

“(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—

(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations ...”

And:

“(4) If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in regulation 16(3) applies, it must ... allow the appeal.”

You'll note that if, as appears to be the case, the correct 'Full Single Fare applicable' did not form part of the penalty fare charged then it was a penalty fare that was not 'charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations', and that this places the appeal panel under an obligation to allow the appeal.

 

[yorkie]

Okay, yeah we did tell him and our tickets were from Hinckley to Birmingham, so have proof of that. We went from Hinckley to Nuneaton to Coleshill then finished at. Birmingham New street

Yeah we stayed on the train all the way to birmingham and just made stops at those stations

Can you confirm the exact journey that you both made, including any differences between them, in an easy to read listed format?

Did you board a service operated by West Midlands Trains (who operate trains branded LNR and WMR) at any point, or was your entire journey by CrossCountry (XC)?

 

[Starmill]

There's no Penalty Fare information at Hinckley so this PF isn't valid. Did you travel from Hinckley to Birmingham and that was it? Nothing else? If you use Hinckley regularly, or are nearby I would suggest returning to the station to take pictures of the station entrances to demonstrate this.

https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/media/3075/download?inline

This map shows Hinckley isn't a Penalty Fare station too.

 

[Idiotic]

XC don’t operate a penalty fare scheme afaik? So this PFN has definitely been issued incorrectly as you’ve used XC to travel to your destination.

 

[Cuthbert]

Can you confirm the exact journey that you both made, including any differences between them, in an easy to read listed format?

Did you board a service operated by West Midlands Trains (who operate trains branded LNR and WMR) at any point, or was your entire journey by Cross Country (XC)?

They travelled directly from Hinckley to BHM as stated in #13

 

[yorkie]

XC don’t operate a penalty fare scheme afaik? So this PFN has definitely been issued incorrectly as you’ve used XC to travel to your destination.

Indeed; if it's a straightforward case of a direct train from Nuneaton and/or Hinckley to Birmingham, then West Midlands Trains are behaving inappropriately by issuing an invalid penalty fare.

The penalty fare should not be paid and should be appealed.

@bdt2712 Please let us know how you get on.

 

[furlong]

XC don’t operate a penalty fare scheme afaik? So this PFN has definitely been issued incorrectly as you’ve used XC to travel to your destination.

(If you read the regulations closely, that's not a hard-and-fast rule - there are now some loopholes operators can use.)
(edit: see below - there's no such thing as "a penalty fare scheme" any more but XC does have to directly authorise any collector wishing to impose a penalty)

 

[RPI]

(If you read the regulations closely, that's not a hard-and-fast rule - there are now some loopholes operators can use.)

Not in this case, the operator and the TOC issuing the PF have to both have their logos on any PF notices at the station where the PF was issued from. In this case WMT and XC logos would need to be displayed on the notice. As XC do not operate any PF scheme then any notices wouldn't have their logo, also, certainly where I work, the PF notices specifically state that PF's don't apply on XC services.

 

[bdt2712]

Firstly, I massively appreciate all your help with this. Secondly, I’ve written the appeal out. Does that look about right, anything I’ve missed, should add or change?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure I wouldn't just keep it simple and say something like:

This Penalty Fare should not have been charged because the entire journey, from Hinckley to Birmingham New St, was on a CrossCountry train service. CrossCountry do not operate a Penalty Fares scheme.

If that doesn't work you can add all the waffle back in (and/or the thing about the posters) for a second and/or third appeal.