Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[norbitonflyer]

No 701s out this morning, it would seem.

 

[w11_supremecy]

No 701s out this morning, it would seem.

All 701s replaced by 455/458 stock today.

 

[43066]

Utter mismanagement by SWR and now saddles the taxpayer with high operating costs for decades.

How so? The only way that’s the case is if you think the plan was to eliminate guards entirely, and have a SE metro style operation. Even if they wanted to that seems unlikely in the current climate.

At the moment the taxpayer is leasing trains that have been sitting in sidings for years, so at least that situation will be brought to an end once the 455s go off lease.

How does the guard closing the doors increase the operating costs? They’d have been on board anyway.

Indeed.

 

[Lockwood]

Wasn't there a bump to the driver pay for the extra role and responsibility?

So I guess the argument made is that that pay bump is now "free money"?


Not saying that that's my opinion, but how I'm reading this?

 

[43066]

Wasn't there a bump to the driver pay for the extra role and responsibility?

So I guess the argument made is that that pay bump is now "free money"?


Not saying that that's my opinion, but how I'm reading this?

The “bump” was for ASLEF to agree to the change in the contracts. That change was duly made, irrespective of the failure of the TOC to implement it.

I rather doubt anyone will be asking ASLEF if they’re interested in changing their contracts back for a pay cut.

 

[Lockwood]

And I'm not suggesting for a moment that they do.

But a comment was made about higher operating costs, and a question asked about where those costs came from.

If we went in our time machine and removed any hint of DCO coming in, then that rise would not have happened and the operating costs would not have changed.


The last thing we need is to table pay cuts for staff:
1. Pay cuts suck for the person being paid
2. Another round of industrial action
3. Staff moving elsewhere, causing even more cut backs
4. Most importantly, see point 1.

 

[I_am_Nobody]

I rather doubt anyone will be asking ASLEF if they’re interested in changing their contracts back for a pay cut.

ASLEF? No, they’d laugh in the face of anyone making such a request. I do expect RMT will show their face at some point and make overtures about how their members will expect a pay rise in kind though!

 

[43066]

But a comment was made about higher operating costs, and a question asked about where those costs came from.

If we went in our time machine and removed any hint of DCO coming in, then that rise would not have happened and the operating costs would not have changed.

Ah - I see what you (and @Nicholas Lewis) mean - yes that’s true. Albeit that element of the pay rise will be eroded by inflation over time, and ultimately the TOC has “bought” the flexibility to introduce DCO in future if they so wish.

The same is the case at SE (and possibly elsewhere) where DOO is in drivers’ contracts due to a historical agreement dating back to the early 90s, yet their mainline services still carry guards, with no known plans to change that situation.

 

[nctd2306]

All 701s replaced by 455/458 stock today.

Also appears that there is a 4-450 vice 10-458 on the Reading line as a result

 

[SWT_USER]

Also appears that there is a 4-450 vice 10-458 on the Reading line as a result

That diagram is booked to work the 16.50 Waterloo to Reading via Brentford, which is run specifically to deal with match day crowds. Good work

 

[Goldfish62]

Also appears that there is a 4-450 vice 10-458 on the Reading line as a result

I thought there was only one diagrammed pair of 458s on Readings on Saturdays now, with the other pair on Windsors.

93 cancellations today due to train crew shortages! Little wonder that finding 701-trained staff to cover isn't a priority!

 

[Towers]

And I'm not suggesting for a moment that they do.

But a comment was made about higher operating costs, and a question asked about where those costs came from.

If we went in our time machine and removed any hint of DCO coming in, then that rise would not have happened and the operating costs would not have changed.


The last thing we need is to table pay cuts for staff:
1. Pay cuts suck for the person being paid
2. Another round of industrial action
3. Staff moving elsewhere, causing even more cut backs
4. Most importantly, see point 1.

That’s a fair point, if @Nicholas Lewis was directing his comment at that then I retract my challenge!

 

[Monty]

Utter mismanagement by SWR and now saddles the taxpayer with high operating costs for decades.

Not really tbh, they were always going to have guards on board, but just have their dispatch responsibilities taken away. The cost is the same.

In fact the change removes four days from the drivers training course so may actually help speed things up.

 

[DMckduck]

How does the guard closing the doors increase the operating costs? They’d have been on board anyway.

Nicholas seems to think SWR drivers would accept DOO without a hefty rise on top of what they already have.

For higher band tax payers, a worthwhile payrise to take on full operational risk and responsibility would need to be more than a measly 3 or 4%

 

[43066]

Nicholas seems to think SWR drivers would accept DOO without a hefty rise on top of what they already have.

For higher band tax payers, a worthwhile payrise to take on full operational risk and responsibility would need to be more than a measly 3 or 4%

Although I guess the point is that the contract change was agreed and paid for, yet DCO/DOO isn’t now being brought in, which probably means it won’t be for the foreseeable future. In that sense it’s true that they could have saved money simply by not changing the drivers’ contracts.

I seem to recall that change was agreed as part of a wider pay deal that included other aspects, though, so it’s perhaps difficult to say what % pay rise actually related to the DCO/DOO contract change?

That change also can’t realistically be undone at this point, of course, so to really assess the cost effectiveness of the decision to abandon DCO to speed up fleet introduction, we’d need to know how much extra leasing two fleets of trains is costing over the period it might realistically take to roll it out if they continued with the original plan (can anyone give any figures?). I suspect when viewed in those terms it’ll be by far the most frugal course of action.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Latest update from the Union regard 701s, DCO is being kicked into the long grass for the foreseeable. The new proposed method of operation will be driver open/guard close.

"Under 3 monthly review".. interesting

 

[43096]

Although I guess the point is that the contract change was agreed and paid for, yet DCO/DOO isn’t now being brought in, which probably means it won’t be. In that sense they could have simply not asked for the change to drivers’ contracts.

I seem to recall that change was agreed as part of a wider pay deal that included other aspects, though, so it’s perhaps difficult to say what % pay rise actually related to the DCO/DOO contract change?

Let's be honest, DCO is utterly pointless - it costs more (drivers - quite reasonably - want additional payment for door close and the PTI risk responsibility, but there is still a guard on every train) than DOO. The choice is really either full DOO or going to Driver Open, Guard Close*.

* which needs an acronym - DOGS? Driver Opens Guard Shuts

 

[Nogoohwell]

Utter mismanagement by SWR and now saddles the taxpayer with high operating costs for decades.

If I remember correctly, was DOO stipulated by the franchise tender in 2016/17?

If it was, then that is the fault of the tender issuer to check that the stations were ready before putting it in the requirements list. You could argue that SWR should have done better due diligence before committing to it.

 

[Towers]

Let's be honest, DCO is utterly pointless - it costs more (drivers - quite reasonably - want additional payment for door close and the PTI risk responsibility, but there is still a guard on every train) than DOO. The choice is really either full DOO or going to Driver Open, Guard Close*.

* which needs an acronym - DOGS? Driver Opens Guard Shuts

Except if you go full DOO you still then need on board staff for accessibility reasons - to fully de-staff a previously staffed train service would be essentially illegal, and rightly so. GTR pay their “OBS” (On Board Supervisor) grade about the same as a guard, despite them being entirely non-safety critical, so again you really aren’t saving anything.

I’ve no doubt that existing DOO routes will soldier on for as long the railway can find a way of avoiding the inevitable and dealing with the lack of accessibility, but I really don’t think we’ll be seeing any further routes lose guards, even if those guards might surrender door & dispatch duties (or not!).

 

[DMckduck]

Except if you go full DOO you still then need on board staff for accessibility reasons - to fully de-staff a previously staffed train service would be essentially illegal, and rightly so. GTR pay their “OBS” (On Board Supervisor) grade about the same as a guard, despite them being entirely non-safety critical, so again you really aren’t saving anything.

I’ve no doubt that existing DOO routes will soldier on for as long the railway can find a way of avoiding the inevitable and dealing with the lack of accessibility, but I really don’t think we’ll be seeing any further routes lose guards, even if those guards might surrender door & dispatch duties (or not!).

The only issue with DOO is eroding the role of the guard so much that it can be replaced with agency staff on minimum wage or thereabouts.

Right now of course there is staff who don't care at all, but there is plenty who are professional about the job and take it extremely seriously.

The ticket office closure debacle proved that the general public do not fancy destaffing the railway and it can also be seen as a poisoned chalice in the political landscape.

 

[nuts & bolts]

At the moment the taxpayer is leasing trains that have been sitting in sidings for years, so at least that situation will be brought to an end once the 455s go off lease.

This, possibly a portion of the £22 billion black hole Labour inherited at the general election!

Indeed.

 

[Carlisle]

The only issue with DOO is eroding the role of the guard so much that it can be replaced with agency staff on minimum wage or thereabouts.

Right now of course there is staff who don't care at all, but there is plenty who are professional about the job and take it extremely seriously.

True. but an intensive urban metro operation can’t realistically utilise onboard staff in any other meaningful way if they’re tied to carrying out a conventional full door closure procedure at every station.

 

[MasterPhillips]

I’ve no doubt that existing DOO routes will soldier on for as long the railway can find a way of avoiding the inevitable and dealing with the lack of accessibility, but I really don’t think we’ll be seeing any further routes lose guards, even if those guards might surrender door & dispatch duties (or not!).

I wouldn’t say the London Underground or the Elizabeth line are “soldiering on” . Its pretty easy to have accessibility and DOO - level boarding trains and fully staffed stations. Perfectly possible on SouthEastern with the new coming trains.

 

[Towers]

I wouldn’t say the London Underground or the Elizabeth line are “soldiering on” . Its pretty easy to have accessibility and DOO - level boarding trains and fully staffed stations. Perfectly possible on SouthEastern with the new coming trains.

Level boarding is useful, but be wary of assuming that “assistance” only refers to those who would otherwise require a ramp; it covers a much, much broader array of users and needs. Level boarding is great if you’re a fully sighted wheelchair user, not so useful if you’re registered blind for example.

London Underground is an absolute nightmare for accessibility for obvious reasons, its one saving grace is that there is a multitde of staff at every station. That isn’t going to be cheaper than guards on suburban heavy rail.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

level boarding trains

Won't be seeing that on the SWR commuter belt for decades considering 701s aren't anywhere close to level

 

[MasterPhillips]

Level boarding is useful, but be wary of assuming that “assistance” only refers to those who would otherwise require a ramp; it covers a much, much broader array of users and needs. Level boarding is great if you’re a fully sighted wheelchair user, not so useful if you’re registered blind for example.

Agree, hence why I also said fully staffed stations as is the case on the Elizabeth line. Personally I would rather stations staffed first to last train as is the case with the Elizabeth line (also better for revenue as ticket gates are in operation the whole time) than the current SWR situation with most stations pretty much unstaffed most of the evening.

Unfortunatly such multi-skilling of doing ticket gates and accessibility jobs is shot down whenever suggested.

Won't be seeing that on the SWR commuter belt for decades considering 701s aren't anywhere close to level

Which was a mistake and hopefully not repeated with any new suburban stock.

 

[Towers]

Unfortunatly such multi-skilling of doing ticket gates and accessibility jobs is shot down whenever suggested.

Because you can’t be in charge of a gateline and be dealing with accessibility requirements all at the same time. Some gatelines are not conveniently positioned to just nip out onto the platform, not to mention there will be at least two platforms of course if not more. Not every assisted customer is conveniently pre-booked, and if the required staff are not in place ready then the train will simply leave and the customer will be carried onwards until somebody intervenes or they operate a Passcom somewhere, potentially causing substantial delay. How do the station staff advise the driver if they are assisting someone to board who doesn’t require a ramp to be deployed, on a busy platform where they are not immediately obvious? Do we want them to dispatch at every station as well, to make sure they aren’t carried to the next stop? But then they’re leaving the gateline every time a train arrives - just when the gateline is needed the most! Do we have two staff on duty to cover all the jobs? It’s getting expensive… It just doesn’t really work.

One of the benefits of on board staff - and indeed of guards closing doors - is that the person directly responsible for the customer will observe them on the platform needing to get on, travel with them, and ensure that they get off at the appropriate location, and the train will not leave with the station staff stuck on board or with the guard left on the platform! Even on GTR, their OBS colleagues key into a door panel in order to prevent the driver dispatching until they are satisfied that nobody is on the platform requiring their assistance, as it is clearly the only practical way of ensuring that they remain with the train.

Two or more staff on duty - so that’s, what, half a dozen at least on the roster? - at every shack on the suburban networks is simply not realistic, and offers a massive cost increase over simply having a guard on board the train. Yes TfL have staff coming out of their ears, but their utterly dire financial situation is unlikely to be something which the DfT would want to aspire to for the national rail network!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

How so? The only way that’s the case is if you think the plan was to eliminate guards entirely, and have a SE metro style operation. Even if they wanted to that seems unlikely in the current climate.

At the moment the taxpayer is leasing trains that have been sitting in sidings for years, so at least that situation will be brought to an end once the 455s go off lease.



Indeed.

The drivers were paid for DCO that aint going to happen. SWR have expended millions pounds of taxpayers cash on pursuing this goal and we are back to square one. Oh and this is third time the SW side of the old Southern Region has failed to implement a change to working practices.

Anyhow given where things have got to this is now the most sensible way forward but not another good look on the industry.

Will we still get door release by drivers at least that will be some progress from the ceremony of the doors we currently have.

 

[norbitonflyer]

All 701s replaced by 455/458 stock today.

and again today, it would seem

 

[Goldfish62]

and again today, it would seem

Hmm....