ScotRail Class 170's

[computerSaysNo]

Invernesses could easily skip those bold stations.

Edinburgh to Perth calling at Edinburgh Gateway, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch and Ladybank, was hourly, and the occasional Inverness service just extended onwards from Perth. So I'm not sure if any additional viable path would exist to run both the hourly semi-fast Perth service plus an occasional fast to Inverness.

I think the single line between Ladybank and Perth is probably what would cause most problems, I guess in the hours with no Inverness you could run the Perth semi-fast Perth - Ladybank - Edinburgh, then in the hours with the Inverness run that service Perth - via Ladybank - Edinburgh fast and an additional Dundee - Ladybank - Edinburgh semi-fast so that Ladybank etc still get their hourly service to Edinburgh. But then there might be pathing issues elsewhere.

 

[route101]

Ironically the one service unchanged in 25 years. I often wonder how it loaded back in the 2000s.

I remember using this service after connecting from a far north service.

 

[reecestrains]

Edinburgh to Perth calling at Edinburgh Gateway, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch and Ladybank, was hourly, and the occasional Inverness service just extended onwards from Perth. So I'm not sure if any additional viable path would exist to run both the hourly semi-fast Perth service plus an occasional fast to Inverness.

I think the single line between Ladybank and Perth is probably what would cause most problems, I guess in the hours with no Inverness you could run the Perth semi-fast Perth - Ladybank - Edinburgh, then in the hours with the Inverness run that service Perth - via Ladybank - Edinburgh fast and an additional Dundee - Ladybank - Edinburgh semi-fast so that Ladybank etc still get their hourly service to Edinburgh. But then there might be pathing issues elsewhere.

Obviously the fastest route is via Stirling but then again there's the risk of overcrowding on the 170 services if they're already busy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

Invernesses could easily skip those bold stations.

It seems to be the older sets that have most of the 'sticky' door buttons.

I personally haven't had any issues yet but most of the time I tend to get the newer ones. The only older ones I've been on so far up in Scotland are 170413 and 170471.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

That and the 1050 Inverness to Edinburgh are timed for 90mph, so it doesn't affect the timings.

There's also a pair of 90mph workings on a Sunday as well.

Yeah I would presume those extra 2 cars would ease overcrowding a little bit depending on the time of year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Dec 2024 ==

Another HST swap on the 08:38 Edinburgh Waverley to Inverness service:

Realtime Trains | 1H09 0838 Edinburgh to Inverness | 17/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 1H09 0838 departure from Edinburgh to Inverness on 17/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I wouldn't be surprised if it's busy on that train.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Ironically the one service unchanged in 25 years. I often wonder how it loaded back in the 2000s.

Been on it a few times. Does pick up a few more further south (especially Pitlochry & Perth)

 

[Dfatcontroller]

That and the 1050 Inverness to Edinburgh are timed for 90mph, so it doesn't affect the timings.

There's also a pair of 90mph workings on a Sunday as well.

The 1050 south was made a 5-car for capacity purposes. The 1032 north was made a 5-car in order to balance resources.

 

[cf111]

Yes I know, Perth used to be the change point but when the IC7 was imagined up, they diverted Inverness services from Edinburgh via Stirling as its one of the IC7 stations. Edinburgh to Inverness services should run through Fife and miss Stirling, they end up sitting at Larbet Jn waiting on traffic passing on the main line. The timetable is padded though so theres time at Stirling to make it back.

I personally prefer the change being at Stirling as there are more frequent services and it's usually either the same platform or the bay platform. Many not so happy memories of schlepping to the other side of Perth with luggage to change on to a crowded service that had come down from Aberdeen!

 

[bluesfromagun]

Going via Stirling feels much faster to me than via Fife, especially in a 170 which has poor acceleration especially up hills.
From memory, Haymarket to Perth via Stirling is 80/90/100mph until Polmont, 40mph through Falkirk and Camelon, about 75mph to Stirling, 40mph through Stirling station but that doesn't really matter if you're stopping anyway, then 80/90/100mph from there until the tunnel at Craigend just south of Perth.

From memory via Fife, is 90mph leaving Edinburgh but as soon as you get there you need to slow for the 50mph across the Forth Bridge. 50mph across the bridge and all the way until the other side of Inverkeithing station, then 75mph until Aberdour, I think it slows down through Aberdour but I can't quite remember. Back to 75mph until Burntisland, down to 30mph through Burntisland, back to 75mph I think all the way to Ladybank, 40/50mph from there through the hills to Newburgh and then I think it speeds up again from there until the tunnel at Craigend.

It's about the same time both ways, if timed properly - which it isn't. Perth to Edinburgh via Ladybank with two stops and green signals all the way will take just over 1hr 5mins, or thereabouts. Likewise Perth to Edinburgh via Stirling with just the Stirling stop and greens all the way.
You're not far wrong with the speeds. Via Stirling you're pretty much spot on, via Fife you're roughly right (50 through Aberdour, 40 through Burntisland, 30 Kinghorn Tunnel) and the branch was remodelled and linespeeds raised a good few years ago. The Ladybank to Bridge of Earn bit is now almost all 70mph, the only small change is a 60 and a 55 through Newburgh then back to 70.

 

[reecestrains]

Something else I've noticed about ScotRail's 170's on the PIS is in between stations it only shows for example 'The next stop is Perth'. Not a lot of information at all.

It would be better if it featured calling patterns as well as people can get confused, for example:

This is a ScotRail service to Inverness.

Calling at:
Perth, Dunkeld & Birnam, Pitlochry, Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie, Newtonmore, Kingussie, Aviemore, Carrbridge and Inverness.

If you see something that does not look right, speak to a member of staff or text the British Transport Police on 61016. We'll sort it. See it, say it sorted.

I understand it's aligned with the announcements, but more information whilst in between stations would be better. Northern did it well before TrainFX was installed. That's just my take on it.

 

[scotraildriver]

Something else I've noticed about ScotRail's 170's on the PIS is in between stations it only shows for example 'The next stop is Perth'. Not a lot of information at all.

It would be better if it featured calling patterns as well as people can get confused, for example:

This is a ScotRail service to Inverness.

Calling at:
Perth, Dunkeld & Birnam, Pitlochry, Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie, Newtonmore, Kingussie, Aviemore, Carrbridge and Inverness.

If you see something that does not look right, speak to a member of staff or text the British Transport Police on 61016. We'll sort it. See it, say it sorted.

I understand it's aligned with the announcements, but more information whilst in between stations would be better. Northern did it well before TrainFX was installed. That's just my take on it.

No no no. They were like that when they were new and it was awful. Announcing every stop after every station results in the PIS taking constantly on some routes. Intermediate calling points are announced after major stations such as Stirling and Perth and the balance is about right.

 

[reecestrains]

No no no. They were like that when they were new and it was awful. Announcing every stop after every station results in the PIS taking constantly on some routes. Intermediate calling points are announced after major stations such as Stirling and Perth and the balance is about right.

I understand your point, but I do disagree though in terms of information on PIS screens. I had no idea they were similar when the trains were introduced.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2024 ==

The announcements don't need to go on constantly though.

 

[InvHst]

Traditionally the 070x was the quietest and the 1008/1011-odds the busiest (at least for leisure travel).

That was back when there were just 3 Glasgow to Inverness.

With the addition of two extra services in December 2011, I assume some demand was spread but I feel that today's 1007 is still by a margin the most popular departure, especially in peak tourist season.

The 1907 meanwhile always seems very quiet and I do wonder whether the May 2022 change of this service from an 1811 departure stopping at almost all stations from Larbert to Inverness (everything but Carrbridge) to one an hour later on a semi-fast pattern but also serving Dalwhinnie is really an ideal change. The 1811 used to be quite popular.

1907 was changed from 1811 as quite often the 1733 ex Edinburgh and it would be right up each other and always delayed the back one by moving it back 55 minutes you avoid any particular delays

 

[sprinterguy]

Something else I've noticed about ScotRail's 170's on the PIS is in between stations it only shows for example 'The next stop is Perth'. Not a lot of information at all.

It would be better if it featured calling patterns as well as people can get confused, for example:

This is a ScotRail service to Inverness.

Calling at:
Perth, Dunkeld & Birnam, Pitlochry, Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie, Newtonmore, Kingussie, Aviemore, Carrbridge and Inverness.

If you see something that does not look right, speak to a member of staff or text the British Transport Police on 61016. We'll sort it. See it, say it sorted.

I understand it's aligned with the announcements, but more information whilst in between stations would be better. Northern did it well before TrainFX was installed. That's just my take on it.

Please no. You'd make it significantly harder for people who's first language isn't English, and those relying on visual indications, to identify where they actually need to get off the train.

No extra bumpf on visual displays, please. Verbal announcements have already become so extensive that they've lost a lot of their original utility.

 

[scotraildriver]

I understand your point, but I do disagree though in terms of information on PIS screens. I had no idea they were similar when the trains were introduced.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2024 ==

The announcements don't need to go on constantly though.

They do though. It's a very old, outdated and obsolete system that requires a laptop to be plugged into every cab to update it, and whatever is shown in the screens also voiced. So it does talk constantly after every stop if every station is shown. On routes like the Fife circle with stations close together it's relentless. Also the database is completely full so any new stopping patterns need something else deleted. It badly needs upgrading to trainfx but there's no funding for that currently.

 

[hexagon789]

1907 was changed from 1811 as quite often the 1733 ex Edinburgh and it would be right up each other and always delayed the back one by moving it back 55 minutes you avoid any particular delays

Now of course it runs 30-35 mins ahead of the 1934 from Edinburgh instead and gives the tiny settlement of Dalwhinnie two calls within just 30 mins - practically a metro service!

 

[reecestrains]

Please no. You've just made it significantly harder for people who's first language isn't English, and those relying on visual indications, to identify where they actually need to get off the train.

No extra bumpf on visual displays, please. Verbal announcements have already become so extensive that they've lost a lot of their original utility.

I'm not trying to do such thing, I'm only stating my own opinion and I'm not trying to go against people from other languages at all.

They do though. It's a very old, outdated and obsolete system that requires a laptop to be plugged into every cab to update it, and whatever is shown in the screens also voiced. So it does talk constantly after every stop if every station is shown. On routes like the Fife circle with stations close together it's relentless. Also the database is completely full so any new stopping patterns need something else deleted. It badly needs upgrading to trainfx but there's no funding for that currently.

Absolute no to TrainFX, looks awful on Northerns and I wish they kept the original screens. If it was something else that displays better and can handle all the information well, then yes.

I'm only sharing my opinion in the friendliest way possible, we can agree and disagree on things but I'm not here to argue about it.

 

[scotraildriver]

I'm not trying to do such thing, I'm only stating my own opinion and I'm not trying to go against people from other languages at all.

Absolute no to TrainFX, looks awful on Northerns and I wish they kept the original screens. If it was something else that displays better and can handle all the information well, then yes.

I'm only sharing my opinion in the friendliest way possible, we can agree and disagree on things but I'm not here to argue about it.

Trainfx is the current go to system and whether you like it or not has major advantages, the biggest one being any updates can be "pinged" to all units in the fleet instantly. The current system was developed in the mid 1990s and is hopelessly outdated.I can't speak for Northern but the ScotRail 156 units display the exact same information that the 170s do. Why do you have such an adversion to it?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Trainfx is the current go to system and whether you like it or not has major advantages, the biggest one being any updates can be "pinged" to all units in the fleet instantly. I can't speak for Northern but the ScotRail 156 units display the exact same information that the 170s do. Why do you have such an adversion to it?

It does look crap compared to the Whiteleys one, let’s face it.

 

[reecestrains]

Trainfx is the current go to system and whether you like it or not has major advantages, the biggest one being any updates can be "pinged" to all units in the fleet instantly. I can't speak for Northern but the ScotRail 156 units display the exact same information that the 170s do. Why do you have such an adversion to it?

As TT-ONR-NRN said, it does look crap in appearance and doesn't look right on the 170's, it's too bright as well to look at. If it was similar to the existing Bombardier screens with two lines for presenting information, then yes. I do agree TrainFX does have advantages but other screens would likely have benefits too. If it's becoming outdated or not working properly, then sure it'll need a replacement in the future.

That makes me wonder though when EMR's go through refurbishment, how their screens will work as they're getting replaced too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2024 ==

It does look crap compared to the Whiteleys one, let’s face it.

Exactly. If anything needs replacing to meet current standards, at least do a good job of it is what I say.

 

[scotraildriver]

As TT-ONR-NRN said, it does look crap in appearance and doesn't look right on the 170's, it's too bright as well to look at. If it was similar to the existing Bombardier screens with two lines for presenting information, then yes. I do agree TrainFX does have advantages but other screens would likely have benefits too. If it's becoming outdated or not working properly, then sure it'll need a replacement in the future.

That makes me wonder though when EMR's go through refurbishment, how their screens will work as they're getting replaced too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2024 ==


Exactly. If anything needs replacing to meet current standards, at least do a good job of it is what I say.

At the end of the day 99.99% of passengers couldn't care less what it looks like as long as it's displaying accurate and concise information. (If they even look at it all all)

 

[reecestrains]

True, most people won't even think about it, but as train enthusiasts we notice it.

Especially from someone who's favourite train type is the Turbostar!

 

[scotraildriver]

True, most people won't even think about it, but as train enthusiasts we notice it.

Especially from someone who's favourite train type is the Turbostar!

Yes, but to be brutally honest, no one cares what train enthusiasts think. It's about functionality and money.

 

[LowLevel]

Trainfx is the current go to system and whether you like it or not has major advantages, the biggest one being any updates can be "pinged" to all units in the fleet instantly. The current system was developed in the mid 1990s and is hopelessly outdated.I can't speak for Northern but the ScotRail 156 units display the exact same information that the 170s do. Why do you have such an adversion to it?

Do you not have the TrainFX problem of having to trip and reset MCBs in every cab throughout the train to fix frozen Base units, frozen saloon screens, inaudible announcements when trains are coupled etc? I've been working with TrainFX on 158s for the last 6 years and it's dire.

The EMR and XC 170s are about to emerge with an upgraded version of the original PIS which features much of the TrainFX functionality and brand new hardware and should perform much better.

 

[reecestrains]

Do you not have the TrainFX problem of having to trip and reset MCBs in every cab throughout the train to fix frozen Base units, frozen saloon screens, inaudible announcements when trains are coupled etc? I've been working with TrainFX on 158s for the last 6 years and it's dire.

The EMR and XC 170s are about to emerge with an upgraded version of the original PIS which features much of the TrainFX functionality and brand new hardware and should perform much better.

If it works well and is clearly an improvement, then it should be installed across all of the Turbostar family from all operators to be consistent. I don't see that happening though.

 

[scotraildriver]

Do you not have the TrainFX problem of having to trip and reset MCBs in every cab throughout the train to fix frozen Base units, frozen saloon screens, inaudible announcements when trains are coupled etc? I've been working with TrainFX on 158s for the last 6 years and it's dire.

The EMR and XC 170s are about to emerge with an upgraded version of the original PIS which features much of the TrainFX functionality and brand new hardware and should perform much better.

So far we only have trainfx on our 156 units and no, we don't have these issues, it works well. Our 158s still have a Whiteley system which was installed to be compatible with the 170s.

 

[matchmaker]

Going via Stirling feels much faster to me than via Fife, especially in a 170 which has poor acceleration especially up hills.
From memory, Haymarket to Perth via Stirling is 80/90/100mph until Polmont, 40mph through Falkirk and Camelon, about 75mph to Stirling, 40mph through Stirling station but that doesn't really matter if you're stopping anyway, then 80/90/100mph from there until the tunnel at Craigend just south of Perth.

From memory via Fife, is 90mph leaving Edinburgh but as soon as you get there you need to slow for the 50mph across the Forth Bridge. 50mph across the bridge and all the way until the other side of Inverkeithing station, then 75mph until Aberdour, I think it slows down through Aberdour but I can't quite remember. Back to 75mph until Burntisland, down to 30mph through Burntisland, back to 75mph I think all the way to Ladybank, 40/50mph from there through the hills to Newburgh and then I think it speeds up again from there until the tunnel at Craigend.

A fair bit of 100mph between Larbert and stirling.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

So far we only have trainfx on our 156 units and no, we don't have these issues, it works well. Our 158s still have a Whiteley system which was installed to be compatible with the 170s.

I reckon EM must regret not doing the same.

 

[MCR247]

I reckon EM must regret not doing the same.

IIRC the 158s started getting TrainFX’d under EMT, and at that point the only Turbostars in the East Midlands were Cross Country’s

 

[Scotrail84]

So far we only have trainfx on our 156 units and no, we don't have these issues, it works well. Our 158s still have a Whiteley system which was installed to be compatible with the 170s.

I think the HSTs have trainfx too.

 

[reecestrains]

Yeah it's the 156's and HST's that have TrainFX. The Highland Explorer 153's (halved 155's) have them too.

 

[reecestrains]

Just a question for anybody who may know... I've been on a couple booked 170 long distance services and I've noticed they didn't have seat reservations with no stickers even on their booked diagrams (these were newer 170's). On the other hand, an older 170 I saw heading for Inverness did have seat reservation stickers up.

Is there any other cause why reservation stickers are not up even on some booked 170 services? I know when services get swapped from a HST, there are no reservations due to seats not matching up.