Help: South Eastern Fare Evasion - Solicitor needed?

[twey34]

Hi all I am in distress,
I have been issued with a mg11(?) witness statement at a London station. Caught with in an invalid ticket - used the “sand which method” with my travel into work.

This is my first case. I am terrified, I’m awaiting a letter but what should I do?

Will I be issued a fine? Will I be sent to jail? How should I go about this to get an out of court settlement asap? Should I get a solicitor now - before the letter arrives to sort it?

What do I do.

Many thanks

 

[notmyrealname]

Hello.

The forum experts don't seem to have got to your thread yet but I'm sure they will.

Firstly, people don't go to prison for fare evasion and it seems that even with quite a lot of money involved, a settlement can be reached. You read other threads in this forum to see other people's cases and how they worked out.

Don't get a solicitor until the experts see the details of your case and even then you may not need a one. Perhaps you could start by saying how many times you've done this and how you bought the tickets please? Trainline, etc.

When you say the sandwich method, do you mean that you bought a ticket from the first station on your journey to somewhere one or two stops down the line and then another ticket at the end of the journey for a station or two with a gap in the middle?

 

[twey34]

Hi there thanks a lot for your speedy reply, I’m getting myself very worked up and worried about this so I appreciate the help.




And it was via Trainline, by use the method you mentioned. This is the first time I’ve had to deal with a fine/prosecution

 

[notmyrealname]

You should be able to work out how many times from your Trainline account because the company that stopped you is very likely to.

I think the experts are going to want to know which stations you travelled between and what tickets you bought, meaning which part of the journeys you paid for.

Also, could you show us the MG11? Cover up your name, address and any reference number.

I hope you're buying the right tickets now?

 

[twey34]

This is very much destroying me out of worry already. Can I email the train company ahead of receiving the letter to offer out of court settlement? My mental health is and will take a much worse detrimental hit if I have to wait

 

[furlong]

The biggest factor in what happens next is which train company issued the MG11 as they all work in different ways, so please tell us that, or which station it was and the journey.

 

[twey34]

Hi there it was Southeastern and London Bridge

 

[furlong]

OK, so that train company will normally settle out-of-court if you respond in the right way when you get the letter. They tend to ask for higher settlements than some other train companies would.

This means wait for the letter, then the forum can help you to reply to it in a way that apologises and offers to pay them back the money for all the fares that you have avoided paying plus an extra sum to cover their costs in dealing with the matter.

It will cost you money but it's usually possible to avoid court and to avoid needing to pay for a solicitor.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

This is very much destroying me out of worry already. Can I email the train company ahead of receiving the letter to offer out of court settlement? My mental health is and will take a much worse detrimental hit if I have to wait

Unfortunately the only advice we can give is 'wait'. Think about what the railway has to do
- the report needs to get from the officer who took it to the office system. This is unlikely to be before the end of the day when the report was made
- then the railway need to take a first look at it
- then they need to set up a file (whether on computer or on paper) for their notes, your reply and so on, and give it a reference number so that they know what is to do with your case rather than someone else's
- then they need to write to you, and the letter needs to get to you.

So at the very best, this will take a few days - and if you try to contact the railway without the reference (which they haven't told you about yet) then they will struggle to associate your letter with your case. That won't help anyone as they won't know what you want to tell them.

The best advice must be to wait for the railway to write to you. In the meantime, make a note of exactly what happened as you may need that when you reply to their letter. Then try to put the matter to one side - don't forget about it, but try not to worry about it.

One other thing - I think we're talking about something that happened today. So you're very shocked at having been caught and you're thinking about the worst that can happen. But for almost everyone, things don't look quite so bad in the morning - and will look even less worrying the day after that. So if you can get through today, things will probably start feeling better soon.

 

[furlong]

You can expect them to ask for something between about £18 and £30 for each day that trainline shows them you did this, depending upon exactly what you did. Did you buy a Sevenoaks to Chelsfield ticket to get through the barriers at Sevenoaks but then use trains that didn't stop at that station? On top of that they may ask for "costs" of a few hundred pounds.

 

[twey34]

Thankyou for the advice, if this is any use to the case the individual dealing with me was extremely foul mouthed. Swearing and shouting at his colleges using really foul language in between ignoring me and then coming back to wrote up the case. Will this have any effect on how it’s dealt with? As his language was pretty intense and the way he treated his staff was bad. Surely he won’t want this brought up if he is a witness in all this

 

[Gloster]

Thankyou for the advice, if this is any use to the case the individual dealing with me was extremely foul mouthed. Swearing and shouting at his colleges using really foul language in between ignoring me and then coming back to wrote up the case. Will this have any effect on how it’s dealt with? As his language was pretty intense and the way he treated his staff was bad. Surely he won’t want this brought up if he is a witness in all this

If the Inspector was foul mouthed to you it is really a matter that should be dealt with separately afterwards: bringing it up if the facts of the matter that he reports are accurate is unlikely to help you. If he was merely foul mouthed to other staff in your presence, it is a matter that could also be reported at a later date as inappropriate behaviour in the presence of a passenger. Unless it materially affects the case, which I doubt, my opinion is not to complicate the case by raising the matter as part of your reply. However, wait for the experts opinion.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Using short distance tickets at either end of your journey with a gap in the middle is a criminal offence and Southeastern are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to. That said, they are normally prepared to settle cases like this without going to court if you co-operate with them and haven't come to their attention before. Whatever happens you won't be going to prison over this.

What happens next is that Southeastern will send you a letter in the next few weeks. The letter will use quite threatening language and say that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you. The letter will ask for your version of events before they decide how to proceed so it is very inportant that you send a reply. I suggest writing a short, concise reply mentioning the following points:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- Ask if it is possible to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Southeastern will likely search your online ticket purchasing account and if this indicates frequent use of invalid tickets they will want to factor these into the settlement as well. If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the cost of all the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate, with no credit given for the invalid tickets you did purchase. In addition you will need to pay an admin fee, typically around £150. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered - payment in installments isn't normally allowed.

Paying an out of court settlement might feel like paying a fine, but technically it isn't. Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment upon conviction. You won't have a criminal record as a result of paying an out of court settlement.

When it arrives, post a copy of Southeastern's letter in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. Do redact any personal details and case reference numbers before uploading.

There is nothing to be gained by contacting Southeastern before you receive their letter, it could even be counterproductive. The letter could take several weeks to arrive - they deal with hundreds of these cases at any one time and you will have to wait for your case to come to the top of the pile.

It's your decision whether to use a solicitor, they can't change what's happened and you'll need to pay their fee in addition to any settlement you get offered. A solicitor might be able to get a case dealt with a little faster than doing it yourself and they might be able to present your mitigation in a better way than you feel able to do yourself. My view wold be to reply to the letter yorself and then engage a solicitor if this doesn't result in a favourable outcome.

 

[AlterEgo]

Thankyou for the advice, if this is any use to the case the individual dealing with me was extremely foul mouthed. Swearing and shouting at his colleges using really foul language in between ignoring me and then coming back to wrote up the case. Will this have any effect on how it’s dealt with?

No.

 

[twey34]

Hi all about a month ago I was stopped for “sandwich” ticketing a journey. I was completely undaware - stupid I know- of how big of an issue and error this was, and has left me violently mentally unwell since. (Unable to eat, severe anxiety about public transport)


I have been reading this thread almost daily looking for similar situations and have drafted a response. Please give me any advice or tips on this. Thanks so much.


Re Ref



Thank you for your letter dated * * regarding the incident on the * *. I take full responsibility for my actions, and deeply regret not buying a ticket for the full journey on my trip.



I fully appreciate the consequences of my actions, of which, I was previously unaware of my severe lapse of judgement and how this action of mine is a form of fare evasion. I am now incredibly aware of how big an issue this causes for Southeastern and its customers, and for that, I am very, very sorry about what happened. I immediately felt terrible and the incident has left me Incredibly anxious, sick and regretful. I hope the fact that I was fully co-operative with the member of rail staff present provides some reassurance that I regretted my actions. It has helped me understand how big an issue and mistake this was and I can guarantee you that this will not ever happen again.



I have since been far more careful with my expenditure, so that I am always in a position to pay the full rail fare.


I wondered if it might be possible to settle this matter without court action. I am prepared to pay the cost of the fare avoided plus your administrative costs in dealing with the matter and will be fully co-operative.

 

[baz962]

Read the post wrong , duly edited.

 

[30907]

Hi and welcome back.

First, I assume you haven't actually received the letter from SE and are just planning ahead. When it arrives, it helps if you upload it(and the MG11 - with personal details hidden) as it enables us to tailor our advice.

Second, a few suggestions, partly to keep it short! I hope they are constructive

I now fully appreciate the consequences of my actions, of which, I was previously unaware of my severe lapse of judgement and how this action of mine is a form of fare evasion.

Sorry, but they won't believe you didn't know paying part of the fare was wrong!

I am now incredibly aware of how big an issue this causes for Southeastern and its customers, and for that, I am very, very sorry about what happened. I immediately felt terrible and the incident has left me Incredibly anxious, sick and regretful.

I don't think they will be terribly sympathetic or even interested in your guilty feelings

I have since been far more careful with my expenditure, so that I am always in a position to pay the full rail fare.

This paragraph might make them think you have evaded the fare before - do you want to say that? We generally advise against

I wonder if it might be possible you might be willing to settle this matter without court action. I would be grateful if you would allow me am prepared to pay the cost of the fare avoided plus your administrative costs in dealing with the matter and will be fully co-operative.

I've changed this to make it clear that you are asking them for leniency, not making them an offer.

 

[twey34]

H

Hi and welcome back.

First, I assume you haven't actually received the letter from SE and are just planning ahead. When it arrives, it helps if you upload it(and the MG11 - with personal details hidden) as it enables us to tailor our advice.

Second, a few suggestions, partly to keep it short! I hope they are constructive

Sorry, but they won't believe you didn't know paying part of the fare was wrong!

I don't think they will be terribly sympathetic or even interested in your guilty feelings

This paragraph might make them think you have evaded the fare before - do you want to say that? We generally advise against

I've changed this to make it clear that you are asking them for leniency, not making them an offer.

Hi there, thanks a lot for this! Sorry if I was not clear, I have received the letter from south eastern a very simple:

 

[30907]

H

Hi there, thanks a lot for this! Sorry if I was not clear, I have received the letter from south eastern a very simple:

Thanks. The MG11 would also be useful

 

[twey34]

Unfortunately the ink on this is now illegible! However it doesn’t state anything in terms of any statements, just issued at xyz station, journey from xxx - xyz station

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

Hi all, I have posted my draft response above to my letter received by Southeastern, will be sending off tomorrow if there are any other suggestions or help to be added I’d greatly appreciate it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

 

[lgor5445]

Unfortunately the ink on this is now illegible! However it doesn’t state anything in terms of any statements, just issued at xyz station, journey from xxx - xyz station

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

Hi all, I have posted my draft response above to my letter received by Southeastern, will be sending off tomorrow if there are any other suggestions or help to be added I’d greatly appreciate it

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2024 ==

Hi what has been the outcome ? Please let me know as I’m in a similar situation

 

[Elecman]

Hi what has been the outcome ? Please let me know as I’m in a similar situation

Can you please start your own thread if you need advice as per forum rules as no 2 cases are identical and on your own thread you will be given tailored advise to you4 particular circumstances

 

[twey34]

Hi all just updating as I know it helped me seeing others.

I had hesrd absolutely nothing back after sending my letter, I left it about 6/8 weeks and sent a follow up email. They got back to me a few days later with a settlement.

 

[Titfield]

Hi all just updating as I know it helped me seeing others.

I had hesrd absolutely nothing back after sending my letter, I left it about 6/8 weeks and sent a follow up email. They got back to me a few days later with a settlement.

Thats good to hear.

It would assist forum users if you could indicate what the settlement was in terms of the fare avoided and the administration charge levied? Was any account taken of the fare you had paid? Thank you.

 

[twey34]

Just a further update as I know it helps people, I have been waiting to pay the fine as I had 21 days - and was of course waiting for my payday ans Christmas. I had tried to pay online straight away but the online service was showing the wrong amount - my settlement was around £1000 but the online system was showing over £1200. I have had to wait till today to call up the debt recovery line and it is also showing as wrong for them…..

The lady refused to take payment as she could see the letter stating the correct amount and says the online system must be an error and I will have to email to get this corrected.

Frustrating as she said no one from prosecutions are “in office” so I will have to wait for them to reply to my email which is also getting dangerously close to the 21 day.


Anyone else had a similar issue to this?

 

[island]

Would suggest sending them a cheque so that the deadline is not missed.

 

[twey34]

I shall not be paying by cheque as I do not wish to have to pay even more in postage to do so. £115 extra they are trying to charge so I will wait there reply. I would also need to wait for a new cheque book to arrive first

 

[Elecman]

Did you ask the person you spoke to at the Debt Recovery unit to record on the file the error so in effect stopping the clock on the payment deadline?

 

[island]

I shall not be paying by cheque as I do not wish to have to pay even more in postage to do so.

Paying 85p postage would hardly break the bank.

 

[John R]

I shall not be paying by cheque as I do not wish to have to pay even more in postage to do so.

That seems a very odd attitude to take given you are the architect of your own misfortune and are the only party that has anything to gain by getting this resolved asap.