Govia Thameslink first class penalty fare dispute

[dcs34]

Not 100% sure this is the right subforum given this isn't a personal issue, so apologies.

A student 'confused' by Thameslink's First Class declassification procedure has lead to an online and media storm about Thameslink approach to the "two First Class" setup on their trains:

x.com

x.com

This has lead to a number of media articles including coverage in the Telegraph:

Train passenger fined £80 for sitting in wrong first-class carriage

Thameslink policy is confusing and should be scrapped, says angry teenager

www.telegraph.co.uk

In my view, at face value a lot of the noise around this seems to come from people either playing dumb about abusing First Class rules, or those whipping generic outrage about the trains / rail infrastructure / ticketing complexity. Whilst I appreciate the "wrong first class" scenario is confusing and Thameslink could definitely do a much better job of explaining and announcing it, if one were to follow the rules then it's not hard to avoid getting a fine. If you don't have a first class ticket don't sit in a carriage labelled 'First Class' unless you see a sign or announcement telling you it's OK.

But, do we think the public "outrage" about this might lead to changes from Thameslink? Could we see First Class removed from the 700s (like the Great Northern's 717s?) given there is limited benefit?

 

[Anonymous10]

Not 100% sure this is the right subforum given this isn't a personal issue, so apologies.

A student 'confused' by Thameslink's First Class declassification procedure has lead to an online and media storm about Thameslink approach to the "two First Class" setup on their trains:

x.com

x.com

This has lead to a number of media articles including coverage in the Telegraph:

Train passenger fined £80 for sitting in wrong first-class carriage

Thameslink policy is confusing and should be scrapped, says angry teenager

www.telegraph.co.uk

In my view, at face value a lot of the noise around this seems to come from people either playing dumb about abusing First Class rules, or those whipping generic outrage about the trains / rail infrastructure / ticketing complexity. Whilst I appreciate the "wrong first class" scenario is confusing and Thameslink could definitely do a much better job of explaining and announcing it, if one were to follow the rules then it's not hard to avoid getting a fine. If you don't have a first class ticket don't sit in a carriage labelled 'First Class' unless you see a sign or announcement telling you it's OK.

But, do we think the public "outrage" about this might lead to changes from Thameslink? Could we see First Class removed from the 700s (like the Great Northern's 717s?) given there is limited benefit?

Apologies if this is a silly question, but did he have a first class ticket? Surely a simple solution to this is to have a announcement saying first class in coach X and declassified in coach y.

 

[AlterEgo]

The majority of Thameslink's "first class" seats on a daily basis are declassified. Got a bit of sympathy with the guy here, if you travel on the Rainham/Wimbledon etc routes you'd be forgiven for thinking everything was declassified. There should be a consistent service proposition for first class.

 

[FOH]

It's the other way around. First Class is declassified where you are told eg Link

Linked site shows a photo of screen allowing standard class ticket holders to sit in this area marked First Class

Apologies if this is a silly question, but did he have a first class ticket? Surely a simple solution to this is to have a announcement saying first class in coach X and declassified in coach y

 

[Jan Mayen]

Perhaps just make front and back on all Thameslink trains First Class. That would simplify things!

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies if this is a silly question, but did he have a first class ticket? Surely a simple solution to this is to have a announcement saying first class in coach X and declassified in coach y.

The platform screens and announcements state: 'First Class at the front' and on-board PIS displays also state when an area is declassified.

 

[WesternLancer]

Perhaps just make front and back on all Thameslink trains First Class. That would simplify things!

That’ll cost me cash!

 

[RJ]

There's a very easy solution - don't sit in a First Class area with a Standard Class ticket, if it's deemed too confusing to understand when it can and can't be used.

If you deliberately choose to sit in First Class without a valid ticket, and it will be deliberate, take the penalty on the chin. It's an age old thing for people to do this when they think nobody will check tickets, but random checks are a part of travelling.

Silly situations like this will just lead to it being classified all the time. If a concession is given, people should accept and abide by the terms of it rather than take liberties. No sympathy here.

 

[Wolfie]

Not 100% sure this is the right subforum given this isn't a personal issue, so apologies.

A student 'confused' by Thameslink's First Class declassification procedure has lead to an online and media storm about Thameslink approach to the "two First Class" setup on their trains:

x.com

x.com

This has lead to a number of media articles including coverage in the Telegraph:

Train passenger fined £80 for sitting in wrong first-class carriage

Thameslink policy is confusing and should be scrapped, says angry teenager

www.telegraph.co.uk

In my view, at face value a lot of the noise around this seems to come from people either playing dumb about abusing First Class rules, or those whipping generic outrage about the trains / rail infrastructure / ticketing complexity. Whilst I appreciate the "wrong first class" scenario is confusing and Thameslink could definitely do a much better job of explaining and announcing it, if one were to follow the rules then it's not hard to avoid getting a fine. If you don't have a first class ticket don't sit in a carriage labelled 'First Class' unless you see a sign or announcement telling you it's OK.

But, do we think the public "outrage" about this might lead to changes from Thameslink? Could we see First Class removed from the 700s (like the Great Northern's 717s?) given there is limited benefit?

That has been an issue waiting to happen. Indeed some people on here predicted it.

 

[bramling]

Not 100% sure this is the right subforum given this isn't a personal issue, so apologies.

A student 'confused' by Thameslink's First Class declassification procedure has lead to an online and media storm about Thameslink approach to the "two First Class" setup on their trains:

x.com

x.com

This has lead to a number of media articles including coverage in the Telegraph:

Train passenger fined £80 for sitting in wrong first-class carriage

Thameslink policy is confusing and should be scrapped, says angry teenager

www.telegraph.co.uk

In my view, at face value a lot of the noise around this seems to come from people either playing dumb about abusing First Class rules, or those whipping generic outrage about the trains / rail infrastructure / ticketing complexity. Whilst I appreciate the "wrong first class" scenario is confusing and Thameslink could definitely do a much better job of explaining and announcing it, if one were to follow the rules then it's not hard to avoid getting a fine. If you don't have a first class ticket don't sit in a carriage labelled 'First Class' unless you see a sign or announcement telling you it's OK.

But, do we think the public "outrage" about this might lead to changes from Thameslink? Could we see First Class removed from the 700s (like the Great Northern's 717s?) given there is limited benefit?

Not really sure what the fuss is about. If one is going to try and be clever and use a hack, make sure one has got it right.

 

[Wolfie]

The majority of Thameslink's "first class" seats on a daily basis are declassified. Got a bit of sympathy with the guy here, if you travel on the Rainham/Wimbledon etc routes you'd be forgiven for thinking everything was declassified. There should be a consistent service proposition for first class.

Exactly. Consistency is key to a perception of fairness.

 

[All Line Rover]

No sympathy with this one. First class is clearly marked on these services.

It's generous as it is that first class at the rear is declassified. If first class went, all the first class seats would be replaced with standard class seats and everybody loses.

The one change Thameslink could do with making is announcing in the front first class compartment, immediately after departing each station, that the seating is first class and any passengers holding standard class tickets will be charged. That would eliminate any risk of "confusion".

 

[RJ]

The majority of Thameslink's "first class" seats on a daily basis are declassified. Got a bit of sympathy with the guy here, if you travel on the Rainham/Wimbledon etc routes you'd be forgiven for thinking everything was declassified. There should be a consistent service proposition for first class.

The guy is knowingly taking liberties and whinging because of an unexpected episode of enforcement. How can that level of entitlement warrant any sympathy?

 

[Oggworth]

I feel like some in the replies here are either completely missing the point or are just being spiteful. If Thameslink have two identical First Class sections and one of them is declassified, it’s completely fair and rational to assume that they both are; especially given that on other Thameslink routes that is very much the case.

It’s all well and good to say they should’ve had first class tickets, but this is entirely on Thameslink for creating such an arbitrary system only to fine people £70 a pop when they inadvertently overstep the line.

 

[bramling]

I feel like some in the replies here are either completely missing the point or are just being spiteful. If Thameslink have two identical First Class sections and one of them is declassified, it’s completely fair and rational to assume that they both are; especially given that on other Thameslink routes that is very much the case.

It’s all well and good to say they should’ve had first class tickets, but this is entirely on Thameslink for creating such an arbitrary system only to fine people £70 a pop when they inadvertently overstep the line.

The reasonable assumption is to assume that *all* first class applies. If you try and take advantage of a hack, then take the trouble to actually understand it. The screens on the class 700s are quite clear, so it isn’t like the information is lacking. I’m no fan of GTR, but can’t fault them on this one.

 

[RJ]

I feel like some in the replies here are either completely missing the point or are just being spiteful. If Thameslink have two identical First Class sections and one of them is declassified, it’s completely fair and rational to assume that they both are; especially given that on other Thameslink routes that is very much the case.

It’s all well and good to say they should’ve had first class tickets, but this is entirely on Thameslink for creating such an arbitrary system only to fine people £70 a pop when they inadvertently overstep the line.

The area is very clearly marked as First Class outside and inside of the train and also on the screens, which this passenger would appear to be able to read. Thameslink do advertise that the rear First Class area is declassified, and this is a good thing overall which people seem to understand just fine. And as a passenger who is fine with it, I don't want it taken away because of a minority who make a choice to take liberties then use this excuse to try and get out of it.

There is no genuine case for confusion here. Most of Thameslink's services don't have ticket checks - the complaint isn't about being confused, it's about having their ticket checked and the correct fare for that situation being enforced.

It has created a situation where a minority of people have the thought process of "the back is declassified, so I'm going to in the classified area as my ticket won't be checked"

 

[Wolfie]

No sympathy with this one. First class is clearly marked on these services.

It's generous as it is that first class at the rear is declassified. If first class went, all the first class seats would be replaced with standard class seats and everybody loses (except the 1st ticket holders!).

The one change Thameslink could do with making is announcing in the front first class compartment, immediately after departing each station, that the seating is first class and any passengers holding standard class tickets will be charged. That would eliminate any risk of "confusion".

Those so-called first class seats are identical to those in standard class

 

[RJ]

Those so-called first class seats are identical to those in standard class

They're wider, with armrests, plug sockets, more legroom and tables or fold out tables.

 

[Wolfie]

They're not - they're wider, with armrests, more legroom and tables or fold out tables.

Are they really? They certainly don't feel it.

 

[WesternLancer]

The area is very clearly marked as First Class outside and inside of the train and also on the screens, which this passenger would appear to be able to read. Thameslink do advertise that the rear First Class area is declassified, and this is a good thing overall which people seem to understand just fine. And as a passenger who is fine with it, I don't want it taken away because of a minority who make a choice to take liberties then use this excuse to try and get out of it.

There is no genuine case for confusion here. Most of Thameslink's services don't have ticket checks - the complaint isn't about being confused, it's about having their ticket checked and the correct fare for that situation being enforced.

It has created a situation where a minority of people have the thought process of "the back is declassified, so I'm going to in the classified area as my ticket won't be checked"

Indeed

Last time I was in declassified section a few weeks back 2 teenagers got on and spent much of their journey from east Croydon blagging to friends on their phone that they were sitting in first class without tickets and didn’t care because it was never checked.

Shame it wasn’t checked so the rest of us could see how they reacted when they were not asked to move!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2024 ==

Are they really? They certainly don't feel it.

I wouldn’t know as I never need to sit in the real standard class seats. lol

 

[soil]

The platform screens and announcements state: 'First Class at the front' and on-board PIS displays also state when an area is declassified.

I take the fully-declassified Sutton loop trains very frequently, pretty much always sitting in the FC compartment, and I've never noticed a "this area is declassified' sign. It's very confusing.

 

[Anonymous10]

It's the other way around. First Class is declassified where you are told eg Link

Linked site shows a photo of screen allowing standard class ticket holders to sit in this area marked First Class

Thanks, only used thameslink once so wasn't sure. If there's screens telling you what coaches are declassified and they were on then I think thameslink did a reasonable amount.

 

[WesternLancer]

I take the fully-declassified Sutton loop trains very frequently, pretty much always sitting in the FC compartment, and I've never noticed a "this area is declassified' sign. It's very confusing.

It’s on the scrolling screen on the ceiling. Occasionally.

 

[Hadders]

Perhaps just make front and back on all Thameslink trains First Class. That would simplify things!

The reason why the rear compartment is always declassified is due to the number of seats.

When the class 700s were built they had fewer standard seats so that there was more space for people to stand. But on the 8-car trains there was an increase in the number of 1st class seats. Consequently, it was decided to declassify the rear compartment.

I feel like some in the replies here are either completely missing the point or are just being spiteful. If Thameslink have two identical First Class sections and one of them is declassified, it’s completely fair and rational to assume that they both are; especially given that on other Thameslink routes that is very much the case.

It’s all well and good to say they should’ve had first class tickets, but this is entirely on Thameslink for creating such an arbitrary system only to fine people £70 a pop when they inadvertently overstep the line.

The rear first class compartment is always declassified on Thameslink.

On some services the front compartment is declassified as well.

Both compartments are clearly marked as first class, and there is a door separating first from standard.

When a compartment is declassified the PIS inside the compartment states so as part of its rotating messages.

Those so-called first class seats are identical to those in standard class

They are completely different on the class 700s.

You’re thinking of the class 387s where the seats are identical.

 

[Oggworth]

When a compartment is declassified the PIS inside the compartment states so as part of its rotating messages.

It really isn’t fair though to expect passengers to catch that piece of scrolling text when it happens to come onscreen. Not everyone is a rail enthusiast and the reality is that your average passenger who only rides on fully declassified suburban services is going to assume the same applies whenever they ride a class 700.

In a society where people are kinder to each other, one might expect the guard to simply inform the passengers of their mistake and give them the chance to move before slapping them with a fine, but alas…

 

[RJ]

It really isn’t fair though to expect passengers to catch that piece of scrolling text when it happens to come onscreen. Not everyone is a rail enthusiast and the reality is that your average passenger who only rides on fully declassified suburban services is going to assume the same applies whenever they ride a class 700.

In a society where people are kinder to each other, one might expect the guard to simply inform the passengers of their mistake and give them the chance to move before slapping them with a fine, but alas…

The area is clearly advertised as First Class.

There is no guard on these trains, there are random checks by teams of ticket inspectors.

In a society where concessions and discretion are offered, there will always be people who serially take liberties then protest when caught out and required to pay the fare. And these people can end up making things worse for others who are prepared to accept the concessions for what they are and abide by the terms. This guy has kicked off in the media, what I imagine most passengers don't want is for Thameslink to remove the rear compartment concession.

 

[DanNCL]

I’m not surprised there’s been confusion - these trains have first class compartments at both ends, yet at any given time a maximum of one of them is in use, on some services neither are in use, and the average passenger is expected to know exactly which of the 20+ trains per hour on Thameslink have first class ticket restrictions and where.

In my opinion if someone is caught sitting in the wrong section of the train they should be given the opportunity to move, only if they refuse to do so should they then get a penalty fare. Unfortunately much of the railway has a policy of treating any passenger that isn’t perfect as a criminal.

 

[Hadders]

It really isn’t fair though to expect passengers to catch that piece of scrolling text when it happens to come onscreen. Not everyone is a rail enthusiast and the reality is that your average passenger who only rides on fully declassified suburban services is going to assume the same applies whenever they ride a class 700.

In a society where people are kinder to each other, one might expect the guard to simply inform the passengers of their mistake and give them the chance to move before slapping them with a fine, but alas…

I’m sorry but I cannot agree with this assessment.

The compartment is clearly marked as 1st class and the default position is that you need a 1st class ticket to use the compartment, unless you are aware of the declassification policy.

The outcome of this is likely to be the re-classification on the rear compartment as 1st class so people should be careful what they wish for.

 

[WesternLancer]

It really isn’t fair though to expect passengers to catch that piece of scrolling text when it happens to come onscreen. Not everyone is a rail enthusiast and the reality is that your average passenger who only rides on fully declassified suburban services is going to assume the same applies whenever they ride a class 700.

In a society where people are kinder to each other, one might expect the guard to simply inform the passengers of their mistake and give them the chance to move before slapping them with a fine, but alas…

But the solution to that is if in doubt don’t sit there, surely.

 

[furlong]

Nobody should be charged for sitting in those seats until they sort out the signage. After all this time there's no excuse for continuing to cause the confusion this does, It's hardly rocket science to put signs up at each end of the trains saying that on (the specified routes) when at the front you must have a first class ticket to sit there but on (other specified routes) and when at the back of the train you don't. Currently if you are not sure you have to watch the electronic display continuously for 8 minutes (or whatever the right time is) to see if there is a message about this or not - so at least that amount of time should be allowed as a grace period after boarding.

The scrolling displays only show this information for a few seconds with several minutes in between - their alternative would be to dedicate some displays to this information, showing it for a substantial fraction of the time on the displays in and by those compartments while trains are stopped at stations and for several minutes after departure.

The first class signs themselves also need bringing back up to British Rail standards so there can be no ambiguity that they mean that you have to hold a first class ticket to sit there.

Other train companies manage to avoid this nonsense - they instead use the public information systems to tell you if First Class is at the front or rear of any particular train so first class passengers know where to wait. Then the trains can be labelled permanently one end standard and one end first.