takethegame
Member
How will this equate to the departure times each hour from KGX i.e. will the fast Edinburgh still leave at 00 and what times will these other trains depart each hour?
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December 2025 East Coast Timetable
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How will this equate to the departure times each hour from KGX i.e. will the fast Edinburgh still leave at 00 and what times will these other trains depart each hour?
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hexagon789
Veteran Member
This was the provision timetable, which appears to be being used except some changes to Darlington and Durham calls.
NORTHBOUND off King's Cross
XX:03 - Edinburgh semi-fast. Calling at: Peterborough, Newark North Gate, Doncaster, York, Darlington (even-hours) or Durham (odd-hours), Newcastle, Alnmouth (odd-hours) or Berwick-upon-Tweed (even-hours), Edinburgh. (4h24 average.)
XX:10 Leeds. Calling at: Peterborough, Grantham, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds (2h11).
XX:30 Edinburgh fast. Calling at: York and Newcastle only. (Typically 4h04 or 4h08.)
XX:33 Newcastle semi-fast. Calling at Stevenage, Grantham, York, Northallerton (mostly two-hourly in even hours, some hourly calls), Darlington, Durham, Newcastle (3h03).
XX:40 Leeds/Harrogate*. Calling at: Stevenage, Newark North Gate, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds (2h08-2h10), Horsforth*, Harrogate* (2h50). *Harrogate extensions two-hourly on even-hours.
XX:47 Lincoln (even-hours)/York (odd-hours)
Lincoln services calling at: Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Lincoln (1h53).
York services calling at: Peterborough, Retford, Doncaster, York (2h05).
SOUTHBOUND
From Edinburgh:
XX:00 fast. (Mostly 4h10, a couple take 4h18.)
Xx:30 semi-fast. Even-hours serve Berwick & Darlington, Odd-hours serve Alnmouth & Durham. (4h31.)
From Newcastle:
XX:27 semi-fast. 3h04. Northallerton calls mostly two-hourly in even hours.
From York:
XX:26 semi-fast in even hours.
From Leeds:
XX:10* - Wakefield, Doncaster, Newark, Peterborough. (2h11.)
XX:40 - Wakefield, Doncaster, Grantham, Stevenage. (2h12-14).
* - from Harrogate two-hourly (dep. XX:35) in odd-hours only
From Lincoln:
XX:20 odd-hours. 1h58
Extensions beyond Edinburgh run in XX:03 northbound/XX:30 southbound paths.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Move to the semi-fast paths
D6130
Established Member
Why are the Edinburgh semi-fast services departing Kings Cross at xx 03 instead of xx 00?
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Pathing?
D6130
Established Member
I'd sort of guessed that. Wonder if they'll be advertised to the public as xx 00 departures, with xx 03 as the WTT time?
hexagon789
Veteran Member
XX:03 was the public time in the provisional published timetable.
I don't think I ever saw a provisional Working Timetable for the new ECML pattern.
Riverside Redz
Member
Hi so is an increase in the Middlesbrough service not happening in this timetable (extension of the York’s)?
Extremely unlikely until/if at the very least platform 3 opens. I'm not convinced a service uplift will happen at all to be quite honest. Best we might be able to hope for is a slightly better timed departure from London and a 7 day a week service in my opinion.
higthomas
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Why is that as opposed to being extensions of the fast services?
I'd have thought that speeding up Aberdeen, Inverness, Dundee etc-London journeys would be more desirable than the increased connectivity from the semi-fast service.
Riverside Redz
Member
I agree about platform 3 but I Defintely think an uplift will happen , heard from a few drivers that the chiefs want an increase to about 6 a day
You're more optimistic than I am
I know that was the original plan way back when but there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then!
hexagon789
Veteran Member
The previous document on the new timetable stated it was for connectivity.
As the semi-fast is sped-up, at the very worst the Inverness/Aberdeens are 10 mins slower. Most of the Aberdeens are actually fractionally quicker northbound than currently.
Riverside Redz
Member
Haha I’ve been told this very recently , also messaged David Horne and he hearted the message asking about whether he plans to increase the service (that was only last week ) ♂️have to admit tho the stand still on platform 3 worries me that LNER will grow impatient and give someone else the service instead of usYou're more optimistic than I am
Why more desirable? Most end to end traffic goes by air. Rail has no competition for traffic to and from the intermediate stations. Hence the very existence of semifast services on the ECML
bramling
Veteran Member
I’m not sure that’s the reason, as the Alexandra Palace stop seems to have mainly occupied the space of what used to be pathing time.
Frankly it’s a complete nuisance, and has been responsible for a significant decline in the dependability of the Cambridge stopping service. It should be removed, certainly when/if the 717 services ever return to 4tph.
As regards Ashwell, I was always given to believe it was an attempt to equalise the run times between Hitchin and Cambridge. By slightly speeding up one service and slowing down another there’s less of a differential. In any case Ashwell seems to have managed to get a call in the Brighton service since day one, so having an awkward split of one hourly service calling and one not didn’t really work well. I’m sure someone influential must live near Ashwell, as since 2018 it has done extraordinarily well, especially bearing in mind some elements of GN have been shafted by the post-Covid cuts.
Donny Dave
Established Member
I'm a little confused as to why the Edinburgh services have been switched round, so that the semi fast leaves just after the hour, as this will create conflicts along the route.
Currently, the fast service passes through Doncaster at approximately xx30, where as the new timetable will see the Edinburgh and Leeds services in the Doncaster area at the same time as the TPE services that cross over, the Northern services between Sheffield and Adwick, and (every other hour), the Scunthorpe stopper. That will be 5 trains requiring p4 or p8 at Doncaster in around 15 minutes, which has the potential to create a lot of delays.
Currently, the fast service passes through Doncaster at approximately xx30, where as the new timetable will see the Edinburgh and Leeds services in the Doncaster area at the same time as the TPE services that cross over, the Northern services between Sheffield and Adwick, and (every other hour), the Scunthorpe stopper. That will be 5 trains requiring p4 or p8 at Doncaster in around 15 minutes, which has the potential to create a lot of delays.
Not that I know of, certainly none of the top brass at GTR, NR or DfT.
bramling
Veteran Member
Influential rail user group then?
They certainly do very well for a pretty minor village station that has two rather more significant stations just a couple of miles either side.
takethegame
Member
Thanks, although this is quite different to some of another post I saw e.g. one London to Leeds would be fast to Doncaster and the other Leeds service fast from Peterborough to Wakefield, or did I misunderstand? Also Lincoln would be alternating with the additional Leeds/Harrogate service not York which I assume was being replaced by the Newcastle semi-fast. All in all, Retford only seems to get one train every 2 hours as well?
Absolutely. I often get the train from Meldreth to Cambridge and by the time it reaches Meldreth, you are lucky if it's only running 5 minutes down. I think the AAP stop is a significant factor in this.
Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC pre-covid there were some peak GN Ely/KL expresses that stopped at Ashwell. May have been a result of the 2018 timetable meltdown.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
It was said upthread that the Darlington and Durham calls have been rebalanced from the December 2022 proposal -
Durham's LNER calls won't be increased to 1.5tp2h as was the Dec '22 plan it'll remain at 1tph and Darlington won't be reduced to two-hourly Edinburgh calls (Darlington and Durham were originally going to alternate each hour), it'll have a regular hourly call in the Edinburgh semi-fast as well as by the Newcastle semi-fast.
(Instead of Durham being served both hourly by the new Newcastle semi-fast AND two-hourly by the Edinburgh semi-fast, it will now only be served by the hourly Newcastle semi-fast which is still faster and makes fewer calls than the present Durham LNER service by the current Edinburgh semi-fast services.)
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The Ally Pally stop by itself isn't really to blame. The entire timetable structure on both the fasts and slows makes an overtaking manoeuvre very difficult to pull off, and has done since the 2Cxx Cambridge stoppers were consigned to the slows a couple of years before the Alexandra Palace stop was added. So I'd blame that timetable change! Although it added capacity overall, mainly on the fast lines, and couldn't be reversed now.
For example -
The northbound Alexandra Palace stop coincides almost exactly with two LNER trains (e.g. an xx00 Edinburgh and a xx03 Leeds) overtaking on the fasts and it would take a very specific set of delays for running on the fasts to give you any useful overtaking of late running Welwyn stopper trains northbound. Usually you don't catch up with them until Potters Bar or beyond, by which time the Cambridge trains must be back on the slows anyway.
So the Ally Pally stops don't really change all that much most of the time.
In a way I think the reliability problem is really north of Welwyn - e.g. your Meldreth to Cambridge delays are actually quite likely to be picked up/worsened between Hitchin and Cambridge where loads of trains inconsistently manage to lose a few minutes on the stoppers every day, in both directions.
But there is absolutely no capacity left south of Welwyn to absorb any delays, with a late Kings Cross semi-fast held by just a few minutes north of Letchworth destined to have to follow a Moorgate stopper on the slows all the way from Hatfield to Finsbury Park due to a lack of overtaking opportunities, and signallers in York who have seemingly been instructed not to take an opportunity even if it appears on the day.
Some example 2Cxx southbounds with rubbish punctuality scores - first two I picked, there are possibly worse examples:
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xotGD
Established Member
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So an unofficial +5 connection onto the xx:26 Skipton
A pity it isn't kept at xx:03 off The Cross, making it a legitimate +12
19Gnasher69
Member
But there’ll be +12 connections on to the xx:03 and xx:33 Ilkley trains which I’m sure is all the powers-that-be would care about.
Just as the Skipton services into the evening stop at KLF and APY whereas, to my mind, the Ilkeys should call at KLF and the Skiptons at APY.
D6130
Established Member
TBH, I would think that connections at Leeds would be the least of LNER management's concerns....especially for routes that have at least 2tph.
19Gnasher69
Member
I realise that and my post was (half) tongue in cheek…….
But we digress. Back to the forum topic.
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