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December 2025 East Coast Timetable

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swt_passenger

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Really hope Middlesbrough does get the long awaited increase in its one a day LNER service. No idea what the stance is on platform 3 at the moment tho
A recent discussion about Middlesbrough P3 concluded that the sign pointing towards it in the refurbished subway is about the only visible progress so far:
 
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A recent discussion about Middlesbrough P3 concluded that the sign pointing towards it in the refurbished subway is about the only visible progress so far:
Oh yes I heard about this , problem is from what I’m aware TVCA were allocated £1bn from Sunak last year for transport projects , some of this was going to be used to “fast track” the delivery of platform 3 but since Labour have got into power this has been placed “on review” ever since. From what I read into it platform 3 will happen as it is clearly marked as phase 3 (the final phase) of Middlesbrough station upgrades by TCVA however this government funding ultimately determines the pace of its delivery.
 
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Guess this will also now set the Cambridge Sth opening?
The consistent message from Network Rail is that Cambridge South Station will open by the end of 2025 and it will be in late 2025. AIUI the opening of the new station is dependent on the new East Coast Mainline timetable so I assume if the new East Coast Mainline timetable is introduced on Sunday 14 December 2025 Cambridge South Station will open on the same date.
In collaboration with other rail industry key projects and their successful delivery such as Cambridge Re-signalling and East Coast timetabling, we are currently aiming to open the new station by the end of 2025.
It is expected that the Cambridge South station will open in late 2025.
 
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Bikeman78

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The consistent message from Network Rail is that Cambridge South Station will open by the end of 2025 and it will be in late 2025. AIUI the opening of the new station is dependent on the new East Coast Mainline timetable so I assume if the new East Coast Mainline timetable is introduced on Sunday 14 December 2025 Cambridge South Station will open on the same date.
Can someone explain to me how it is dependent on the new ECML timetable? What if it doesn't happen? Will we have a new station but no trains? Which services are expected to stop there? I would expect the Cambridge to Brighton trains to retain the same paths as now.
 

Halish Railway

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Can someone explain to me how it is dependent on the new ECML timetable? What if it doesn't happen? Will we have a new station but no trains? Which services are expected to stop there? I would expect the Cambridge to Brighton trains to retain the same paths as now.
I would suspect that the added 2-3 minutes of having a train stop there would create conflicting movements at both the southern throat of Cambridge station and at Shepreth Branch Junction when factored into the existing timetable.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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arb

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I thought it had been said that the time lost for a stop at Cambridge South would be absorbed into time gained by other changes being made at the same time? e.g. the speed improvements at Shepreth Junction, and the changes to the track layout around the main Cambridge station that allow more trains to arrive and leave at the same time as each other. Thus stopping at Cambridge South wouldn't need any timetable changes beyond the immediate Cambridge area?
 

43074

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Can someone explain to me how it is dependent on the new ECML timetable? What if it doesn't happen? Will we have a new station but no trains? Which services are expected to stop there? I would expect the Cambridge to Brighton trains to retain the same paths as now.
The new timetable puts northbound Brighton to Cambridge trains in a slightly earlier path from Finsbury Park which gives them enough turnaround time at Cambridge for the extra stop in both directions. The Kings Lynn and Ely fast services are retimed northbound as well, to accommodate Cambridge South and in the peaks detachments at Cambridge, in the current timetable it would be one or other.

If those trains don't call then it would cut the service in half at Cambridge South, which would be suboptimal given how busy it is expected to be.
 

Magdalia

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I thought it had been said that the time lost for a stop at Cambridge South would be absorbed into time gained by other changes being made at the same time? e.g. the speed improvements at Shepreth Junction, and the changes to the track layout around the main Cambridge station that allow more trains to arrive and leave at the same time as each other. Thus stopping at Cambridge South wouldn't need any timetable changes beyond the immediate Cambridge area?
That was my impression too, but I can't find anything that actually says that.

The booklet for the second consultation (10-11/20) says this (I'm transcribing from a paper copy)

The infrastructure at Shepreth Branch Junction and the southern section of the tracks into Cambridge Station also need to be enhanced to maintain service reliability.

The new timetable puts northbound Brighton to Cambridge trains in a slightly earlier path from Finsbury Park which gives them enough turnaround time at Cambridge for the extra stop in both directions. The Kings Lynn and Ely fast services are retimed northbound as well, to accommodate Cambridge South and in the peaks detachments at Cambridge, in the current timetable it would be one or other.

If those trains don't call then it would cut the service in half at Cambridge South, which would be suboptimal given how busy it is expected to be.
Again I can't find any quotable source, but my recollection is that the original plans did not include stopping the Kings Lynn/Ely fast services at the new station. In the down direction the Brighton-Cambridge and Kings Lynn/Ely services are literally intertwined because the latter overtakes the former, currently between Woolmer Green and Hitchin.
 

Bikeman78

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The new timetable puts northbound Brighton to Cambridge trains in a slightly earlier path from Finsbury Park which gives them enough turnaround time at Cambridge for the extra stop in both directions. The Kings Lynn and Ely fast services are retimed northbound as well, to accommodate Cambridge South and in the peaks detachments at Cambridge, in the current timetable it would be one or other.

If those trains don't call then it would cut the service in half at Cambridge South, which would be suboptimal given how busy it is expected to be.
What is the minimum turn round time for a class 700? I looked at the 1141 and 1211 arrivals from Brighton. Nothing leaps out as a reason to prevent them arriving two minutes later. In any case, there is a minute performance allowance between Woolmer Green and Stevenage, so that means only one minute needs to be found. More bizarre is that 9S16 and 9S18 both take 15 minutes from Royston to Cambridge but one of them has one minute performance allowance but the other does not.

Heading south, the trains have two minutes of performance allowance between Cambridge and Finsbury Park. So it would be tight but seemingly not a deal breaker. How do the trains perform generally at the moment? I.e. Do they struggle to meet the point to point times are they waiting time more often than not?
 

CapabilityB

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What is the minimum turn round time for a class 700? I looked at the 1141 and 1211 arrivals from Brighton. Nothing leaps out as a reason to prevent them arriving two minutes later. In any case, there is a minute performance allowance between Woolmer Green and Stevenage, so that means only one minute needs to be found. More bizarre is that 9S16 and 9S18 both take 15 minutes from Royston to Cambridge but one of them has one minute performance allowance but the other does not.

Heading south, the trains have two minutes of performance allowance between Cambridge and Finsbury Park. So it would be tight but seemingly not a deal breaker. How do the trains perform generally at the moment? I.e. Do they struggle to meet the point to point times are they waiting time more often than not?
The minimum is probably quoted in the Timetable Planning Rules (TPRs) which are publicly available if you search Network Rail Information for Operators
 

bramling

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What is the minimum turn round time for a class 700? I looked at the 1141 and 1211 arrivals from Brighton. Nothing leaps out as a reason to prevent them arriving two minutes later. In any case, there is a minute performance allowance between Woolmer Green and Stevenage, so that means only one minute needs to be found. More bizarre is that 9S16 and 9S18 both take 15 minutes from Royston to Cambridge but one of them has one minute performance allowance but the other does not.

Heading south, the trains have two minutes of performance allowance between Cambridge and Finsbury Park. So it would be tight but seemingly not a deal breaker. How do the trains perform generally at the moment? I.e. Do they struggle to meet the point to point times are they waiting time more often than not?

Given how often the Brighton/Cambridge services suffer late running and have to have remedial measures such as either missing intermediate stations or being turned short, reducing turnround time at Cambridge really wouldn’t be a good thing.

As things stand it’s quite common for trains to be reversed at Letchworth or Royston, or run non-stop for sections like Stevenage to Cambridge, or sometimes Finsbury Park to Cambridge.

That said, tinkering with things by removing stand time at Finsbury Park won’t help with recovering lateness picked up south of the river.
 

Scotrail88

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Lumo increasing services and becoming just as fast is an interesting development.
Does anyone know their proposed times and if Grand Central have similar benefits
 

Magdalia

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Given how often the Brighton/Cambridge services suffer late running and have to have remedial measures such as either missing intermediate stations or being turned short, reducing turnround time at Cambridge really wouldn’t be a good thing.

As things stand it’s quite common for trains to be reversed at Letchworth or Royston, or run non-stop for sections like Stevenage to Cambridge, or sometimes Finsbury Park to Cambridge.

That said, tinkering with things by removing stand time at Finsbury Park won’t help with recovering lateness picked up south of the river.
I use the Brighton-Cambridge trains reasonably frequently. Most of them have a lot of slack in their schedules between the core and joining the ECML down fast line. In the current timetable they are usually booked off St Pancras at xx01/xx31 and Finsbury Park at xx11½/xx41½, and, if on time, usually stand at Finsbury Park for 5 minutes. However, if a Brighton-Cambridge joins the core behind the Sutton-St Albans, instead of in front, most of that 5 minute wait disappears, but the train is still on time departing Finsbury Park.

These days reversal at Royston rarely happens, but reversals at Letchworth are common when there is disruption. At Letchworth the reversal is done in the carriage sidings arrival/departure roads, not in the station, so the running lines are not blocked during the reversal.
 

A S Leib

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Will there be any changes to Edinburgh – Dunbar (ScotRail), Berwick or Newcastle (TPE) services?
 

3RDGEN

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Lumo increasing services and becoming just as fast is an interesting development.
Does anyone know their proposed times and if Grand Central have similar benefits
It's reported that the new timetable will have three OAO paths every two hours so they will be a more standard clockface pattern than the current ad-hoc times which have been added over the years the OAO's have expanded. This standard pattern may allow them to be faster in general but may mean the odd fast service now is slower in future. GC have requested extra services with six a day to Bradford alongside the current six to Sunderland.

Will there be any changes to Edinburgh – Dunbar (ScotRail), Berwick or Newcastle (TPE) services?
The Newcastle - Edinburgh stopping service is expected to go to a two hourly standard clockface pattern in the new timetable.
 

A S Leib

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It's reported that the new timetable will have three OAO paths every two hours so they will be a more standard clockface pattern than the current ad-hoc times which have been added over the years the OAO's have expanded. This standard pattern may allow them to be faster in general but may mean the odd fast service now is slower in future. GC have requested extra services with six a day to Bradford alongside the current six to Sunderland.
Will that include any extra Lumo services at Stevenage or Grand Central services at Peterborough (the latter of which I thought was wanted alongside calls at Seaham)?
The Newcastle - Edinburgh stopping service is expected to go to a two hourly standard clockface pattern in the new timetable.
Thank you. By standard clockface, will that mean all TPE services serving Reston and all of them going through to Newcastle?
 

3RDGEN

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Will that include any extra Lumo services at Stevenage or Grand Central services at Peterborough (the latter of which I thought was wanted alongside calls at Seaham)?

Thank you. By standard clockface, will that mean all TPE services serving Reston and all of them going through to Newcastle?
GC have requested a small increase in Peterborough stops on both Bradford & Sunderland routes, not seen any details on Lumo but given today's announcement on extra units for Lumo you would assume they are looking at increasing their service. There's an article on GC's plans in the December issue of Modern Railways.

Re the Newcastle - Edinburgh I believe they are all stops running the full journey, this increase may make up for removal of stops by LNER/XC services so we will need to wait the final timetable if/when it's published.
 

Bald Rick

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any case, there is a minute performance allowance between Woolmer Green and Stevenage, so that means only one minute needs to be found.

every train has <1> min performance allowance around Welwyn viaduct. It’s there for a reason.
 
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Bikeman78

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every train has <1> min perfromance allowance around Welwyn viaduct. It’s there for a reason.
Fair enough. Another option is to miss out Ashwell & Morden. There doesn't seem to be much there. The semi fast never used to stop there.
 

Magdalia

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Another option is to miss out Ashwell & Morden. There doesn't seem to be much there. The semi fast never used to stop there.
Ashwell and Morden had 146k entrances and exits in 2023/24.

Off peak the Cambridge-Brightons are the only trains that stop there.
 

Bikeman78

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Ashwell and Morden had 146k entrances and exits in 2023/24.

Off peak the Cambridge-Brightons are the only trains that stop there.
My mistake, I thought the stopper stopped there. Is there any reason why it can't?

Whatever happens, a solution needs to be found. We can't build a new station and then not stop there.
 

700720

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My mistake, I thought the stopper stopped there. Is there any reason why it can't?

Whatever happens, a solution needs to be found. We can't build a new station and then not stop there.
I believe when they brought in the extra Alexandra Palace stop on the GN stopper, to prevent journey times increasing they removed the Ashwell & Morden stop (except in the peaks). To prevent Ashwell & Morden being served by only 1tph, both of the Cambridge-Brighton tph now stop.
 
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