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HS2 Compulsory Reservations

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The Standard are running a piece saying all HS2 passengers are guarenteed a seat. Whilst this is probably good from a PR perspective (opening a new railway and within days having people standing on crowded trains) it screams to be capacity crunch- something which HS2 really cannot afford in its current guise.

When HS2 trains start running around 2030, all passengers will have a seat, as seat reservations on the 220mph trains will be compulsory – akin to Eurostar services.
Patrick Cowley, director on network works for HS2, said: “This new high-speed service will give every passenger a seat.”

 
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Snow1964

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It rather depends on if it is advance seat only, or if it is like some continental stations where you can turn up, and get a seat number from a TVM type machine on platform just before train pulls in.
 

Bletchleyite

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"Akin to Eurostar" very much suggests the former bar the most premium of tickets.

My suspicion is that it'll look remarkably like the LNER trial, though possibly with actual enforcement that a reservation is held. Indeed I suspect part of the purpose of the LNER trial is to work out what ticketing approach to use for HS2.
 

Mojo

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Seems sensible to me, as long as you can book a seat up to, say, 5 minutes before departure
and perhaps if they agree to pause enforcement of mandatory reservations in the event of service disruption.
 

Bletchleyite

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Seems sensible to me, as long as you can book a seat up to, say, 5 minutes before departure

Certainly things like smartphones make compulsory reservations much less of a problem than they were when the TGV first came along pioneering that policy in the 1980s, when you'd need to go to the station to make or change a reservation. They do have downsides in terms of flexibility and "what if it's full". It is however the pricing policy I'm more bothered about - if that's Eurostar style I'll be doing a lot less long distance rail travel, just as I will if/when the LNER trial rolls out nationally. I can work around having to book, I don't like being fleeced for having the temerity to decide to travel near the day.

Indeed, if Eurostar's close-to-departure pricing was more reasonable I'd probably do several day trips a year to Paris/Brussels, as a result of their policy I do none.
 

pokemonsuper9

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I feel like isn't this going to inevitable end up with someone saying "no you can't stand for 30 minutes on this train even though there's space, you have to stand for 2 hours on that crowded one instead"?
 

Bletchleyite

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and perhaps if they agree to pause enforcement of mandatory reservations in the event of service disruption.

One of the things that has been cited that might mean they can't do that is the evacuation plan for the long tunnel which has been said before not to be planned around crush loads and how long they would take to get out. So that may be a problem. But I've not heard an official statement on that.

However to be honest I'd rather see a more generous policy on rebooking in disruption. I don't usually *want* to cram onto the next train, I'd usually prefer, assuming there's space, to rebook for a few hours' time and go for a meal while it calms down, or something.
 

Mainline421

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Seems sensible to me, as long as you can book a seat up to, say, 5 minutes before departure
Quite the opposite, no reason Euston-Birmingham should be easier than Euston-Amersham under HS2.

From a passenger's perspective they'll actually be further away than ever under such an arrangement and the benefits of faster journey times are effectively lost if you have to allow time to ensure your whole revolves around arriving before a specific train.
 

tgregson

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Having travelled extensively on trains in France which require reservations (TGV and some intercities) I don't see why this is a problem and makes the journey far nicer and no need to worry about people crushing on to the train. For a journey of more than an hour I normally know exactly when I want to travel and on which train so having a booked seat sounds great.

With the original HS2 plan before Rishi got his hands on it this wouldn't have been a problem the huge increase in capacity would have made up for needing a seat reservation and the lack of standing, between Birmingham and London its not going to cause a problem with a couple of 400meter long trains an hour but to Manchester it will be a different story.
 

DarloRich

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and perhaps if they agree to pause enforcement of mandatory reservations in the event of service disruption.
agreed - that should go without saying ( but doesn't!)
From a passenger's perspective they'll actually be further away than ever under such an arrangement and the benefits of faster journey times are effectively lost if you have to allow time to ensure your whole revolves around arriving before a specific train.
It seems to work for Eurostar...............

This board is utterly conservative. Anything new must be defeated because it has not been done that way
 

Bletchleyite

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It seems to work for Eurostar...............

Eurostar doesn't work for me. I hardly ever use it because they think their super-high fares near the time of travel (for trains that usually aren't full) are acceptable. Even Ryanair/easyJet don't fleece you to the same extent to go somewhere this weekend, say. The policy is about extorting revenue, nothing else.

Compulsory reservation could, but market pricing definitely does not. As I've said many times the LNER trial will, when it rolls out nationally (and I do believe that to be a when), cause my long distance rail travel to pretty much cease, and the purchase of a nice new(ish) EV to replace it at a fraction of its cost and with far more convenience.

The issue isn't CR, the issue is the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to fleece people who either wish to book nearer the time of travel or who wish to change their booked journey on the day. Traditionally that was because of business travel being a viable target for said fleecing, but these days business travel tends to be better planned than personal travel.
 

DarloRich

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I don't see why this is a problem and makes the journey far nicer and no need to worry about people crushing on to the train. For a journey of more than an hour I normally know exactly when I want to travel and on which train so having a booked seat sounds great.
exactly - but this board specialises in niche/edge cases so someone will be along shortly to point one of these out! I honestly don't see an issue.
Eurostar doesn't work for me.
No - you disagree with the pricing structure. The service works perfectly well ( and the pricing structure seems to deliver what the operator wants!) and it has been pleasant the few times I have used Eurostar.

As I've said many times the LNER trial will, when it rolls out nationally (and I do believe that to be a when), cause my long distance rail travel to pretty much cease,
but why? It really isn't as bad as posters here make out. It is, of course, new so is therefore rejected by the majority here!
 

Bletchleyite

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No - you disagree with the pricing structure.

No, it doesn't work for me. That's the same thing. It is too expensive to take a weekend trip booked later in that week despite seats being empty. That means I have done that precisely once (during a seat sale). I'd do it multiple times a year if I could have a return for a reasonable price nearer travel, not £200+ each way.

The service works perfectly well ( and the pricing structure seems to deliver what the operator wants!) and it has been pleasant the few times I have used Eurostar.

There's little worse than sanctimonious forward-planners saying that if it works for them it must work for everyone.

The fact is that I don't plan day trips well in advance. They're subject to weather and whatever else may come up. Thus if the price isn't OK, I don't go, I do something else, e.g. make one by car.

It clearly maximises revenue, which is Eurostar's sole motivation, but I don't find it acceptable that a nationalised State railway operates a policy of that kind - instead, maximum public benefit should be sought, which means getting cars off the road, which means a "bums on seats" policy is a more appropriate one.

but why? It really isn't as bad as posters here make out. It is, of course, new, so is therefore rejected by the majority here!

It absolutely is. Purchased on the day a single between KX and Newcastle/Berwick/Edinburgh is between £130 and £200, so a return journey between £260 and £400 (and most of the £130s involve a split). That's ludicrous when an EV could do it with 4 people on board for under £100, and an ICE for under £200. It's an absolute rip-off.

I'd have less of an issue were the prices more reasonable like those of most of SNCF's TGV services (only Eurostar Red appears to engage in similar levels of extortion to Eurostar Blue). I did hold out some hope that on the day prices might remain vaguely reasonable and the trial would just result in fewer "cliff edges", but in reality the result has largely been extortion - the only reasonably priced service on the ECML is now Lumo. It is clearly and overtly designed to fleece people who don't plan in advance even if travelling when it's quiet, and that is not OK. Revenue maximisation is not the right policy for public transport as a service.
 
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jayah

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Certainly things like smartphones make compulsory reservations much less of a problem than they were when the TGV first came along pioneering that policy in the 1980s,
There are lots of lots of situations where even in 2024, you cannot change or rebook using your phone, because there is no data signal.

I strongly suspect the people who make up these rules all have passes, so are not troubled by this.

France is a poor comparison as the distances are 2-3 times greater. Germany doesn't have this on ICEs, and UK long distance journeys are more like Switzerland than LGV Sud Est.
 

DoubleLemon

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No, it doesn't work for me. That's the same thing. It is too expensive to take a weekend trip booked later in that week despite seats being empty. That means I have done that precisely once (during a seat sale). I'd do it multiple times a year if I could have a return for a reasonable price nearer travel, not £200+ each way.



There's little worse than sanctimonious forward-planners saying that if it works for them it must work for everyone.

The fact is that I don't plan day trips well in advance. They're subject to weather and whatever else may come up. Thus if the price isn't OK, I don't go, I do something else, e.g. make one by car.

It clearly maximises revenue, which is Eurostar's sole motivation, but I don't find it acceptable that a nationalised State railway operates a policy of that kind - instead, maximum public benefit should be sought, which means getting cars off the road, which means a "bums on seats" policy is a more appropriate one.



It absolutely is. Purchased on the day a single between KX and Newcastle/Berwick/Edinburgh is between £130 and £200, so a return journey between £260 and £400 (and most of the £130s involve a split). That's ludicrous when an EV could do it with 4 people on board for under £100, and an ICE for under £200. It's an absolute rip-off.

I'd have less of an issue were the prices more reasonable like those of most of SNCF's TGV services (only Eurostar Red appears to engage in similar levels of extortion to Eurostar Blue). I did hold out some hope that on the day prices might remain vaguely reasonable and the trial would just result in fewer "cliff edges", but in reality the result has largely been extortion - the only reasonably priced service on the ECML is now Lumo. It is clearly and overtly designed to fleece people who don't plan in advance even if travelling when it's quiet, and that is not OK. Revenue maximisation is not the right policy for public transport as a service.
You seem to be making a correlation between compulsory reservations = high price.
would turn up and stand mean automatically prices were lower?
 

A S Leib

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the only reasonably priced service on the ECML is now Lumo.
Without a railcard, an off-peak return from London is £139 to Sunderland, £126 to York or £88-£120 (including day returns) to Doncaster with Grand Central or Hull Trains.

I'm against mandatory seat reservations in principle, but I can't see seat reservations not being free (poor press if HS2 fares are more expensive than already extortionate peak Manchester – London etc. fares with a £10 surplus for a seat on top). Unlike e.g. LNER or TGVs, I don't think there'd be any cases where HS2 would be the only viable option, especially without the eastern leg, and I hope existing services aren't cut too much so that e.g. Lancaster – Preston remains a walk-up, no mandatory reservation service, just with some services to ignore if lacking a reservation.

I also wonder if this will mean Old Oak Common would be pick up northbound / set down southbound only?
 

Bletchleyite

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You seem to be making a correlation between compulsory reservations = high price.
would turn up and stand mean automatically prices were lower?

Walk up off peak fares provide a price cap at a slightly-expensive-but-affordable price, so yes, it would.

For a journey from London to Birmingham booking weeks in advance is irrelevant. I never make journeys like that planned in advance. If the train gets too costly I'll simply switch to the car.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I hope existing services aren't cut too much so that e.g. Lancaster – Preston remains a walk-up, no mandatory reservation service.

The north WCML is exactly where there could be a problem like that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Without a railcard, an off-peak return from London is £139 to Sunderland, £126 to York or £88-£120 (including day returns) to Doncaster with Grand Central or Hull Trains.

I'll not be using Grand Central, thanks. Their policies on passenger abandonment in disruption are not acceptable to me and I don't think they should be in business, let alone me giving them any of my money.

Hull maybe, but they're not exactly frequent or capacious.
 

DarloRich

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It clearly maximises revenue, which is Eurostar's sole motivation, but I don't find it acceptable that a nationalised State railway operates a policy of that kind - instead, maximum public benefit should be sought, which means getting cars off the road, which means a "bums on seats" policy is a more appropriate one.
Come on - you are not that naïve. Lets try to live in the real world.
There's little worse than sanctimonious forward-planners saying that if it works for them it must work for everyone.
But surely you are saying the exact opposite. You are arguing that those who can/do plan should be punished to support your, erm, less well organised approach!
It's an absolute rip-off.
Really? Against driving the normal diesel or petrol car that most people have? Against a short notice flight?
HS2 is going from not-quite-London to Birmingham
This is a silly statement. Euston always seems fairly close to central London. Clearly you would have preferred Charring Cross............

Eurostar has customs and immigration
And that means what?
 

Bletchleyite

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Come on - you are not that naïve. Lets try to live in the real world.

Either of these two things should be the case.

1. The railway receives state funding in return for public benefit (not revenue maximisation) which means the policy should be to maximise public utility including for those of limited means, i.e. bums on seats/capacity maximisation.

2. All subsidy for the intercity railway should cease (including those elements and aspects of the infrastructure that wouldn't be required if it didn't operate, e.g. 125mph on the WCML and all of HS2) and it should operate wholly commercially, with subsidy confined to regional and urban services and/or diverted to bus services, bringing far more public benefit.

I object in the highest way possible to my taxes being used to subsidise toys for rich people, which is what LNER"s long distance service now is.

But surely you are saying the exact opposite. You are arguing that those who can/do plan should be punished to support your, erm, less well organised approach!

No, I think a reasonable price should be charged to all, though there shouldn't be any headline price dumping.

Really? Against driving the normal diesel or petrol car that most people have?

Yes. It doesn't cost £260-400 per person to drive an average family car from Edinburgh to London and back. With a typical family of four on board it's about fifty quid a head.

Against a short notice flight?

I never take domestic flights so they're none of my concern, to be honest HS2 should probably get rid of more of them, particularly if it codeshares with the likes of BA so Old Oak-Heathrow connections are on a through ticket and so guaranteed. I do however object if, aside from Scottish island type socially necessary services, these toys for the rich are receiving state subsidy of any kind, though they in reality mostly aren't.
 

Bletchleyite

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if you cant be objective or realistic there is little point continuing a discussion.

It's completely objective. A State-subsidised and operated railway must have a strong bias towards public service and financial accessibility. Rich people don't need their toys subsidising, they can afford to pay the full cost of them themselves.

It's not unusual for European countries to operate exactly that split, by the way. Long distance services in France, Germany and I believe Italy are commercial and non-subsidised (though there may be indirect subsidy of the infrastructure).
 

A S Leib

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If nothing else, at least HS2 hopefully shouldn't be in the position of there being no seats left on a train; 3 390s per hour to Birmingham and Manchester makes 1800 seats per hour to each when HS2 should provide 3300 seats per hour to each (plus 550 to Stoke and Macclesfield if the Macclesfield terminator's still going ahead?). Under the (well, a) formerly planned service pattern, Liverpool, Edinburgh and Glasgow would have got 2 550-seat tph, so Liverpool and via Preston to Edinburgh would be more than current capacities (with a slight decrease to Glasgow in some hours if existing services are cut).
 

Bletchleyite

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If nothing else, at least HS2 hopefully shouldn't be in the position of there being no seats left on a train; 3 390s per hour to Birmingham and Manchester makes 1800 seats per hour to each when HS2 should provide 3300 seats per hour to each (plus 550 to Stoke and Macclesfield if the Macclesfield terminator's still going ahead?). Under the (well, a) formerly planned service pattern, Liverpool, Edinburgh and Glasgow would have got 2 550-seat tph, so they'd all be increases as well.

At the moment that won't be the case unless money is spent on some 400m platforms. Manchesters will be 200m which means a capacity reduction.
 

A S Leib

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At the moment that won't be the case unless money is spent on some 400m platforms. Manchesters will be 200m which means a capacity reduction.
3 × 550 leaves HS2 services to Manchester slightly short of the current capacity (1650 vs 1800), and I'd guess that at least 1 tph would be kept on classic lines for intermediate stations south of Crewe (if necessary, I think cutting HS2 to Manchester to 2 tph Euston or 1 tph Curzon Street is likelier than cutting all classic line services).

That's not great considering the scale of the initially intended capacity benefits though.
 

DarloRich

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It's completely objective. A State-subsidised and operated railway must have a strong bias towards public service and financial accessibility. Rich people don't need their toys subsidising, they can afford to pay the full cost of them themselves.
But that isn't reality. This board doesn't like to look at reality.
 

A S Leib

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I'm against mandatory seat reservations in principle, but I can't see seat reservations not being free (poor press if HS2 fares are more expensive than already extortionate peak Manchester – London etc. fares with a £10 surplus for a seat on top). Unlike e.g. LNER or TGVs, I don't think there'd be any cases where HS2 would be the only viable option
Coming back to this point, I hope that compulsory reservations don't spread to non-high speed intercity routes where they are the only viable option (Paddington to Cardiff, Birmingham to Bristol*) post-HS2.

*Old Oak Common might be quicker, but also wouldn't help if you're trying to avoid compulsory reservations.
 
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