South Wales Metro - Future

[positron]

I think that one would meet a lot of local, wealthy opposition - the cyclepath is heavily used and seen as a desirable amenity, whereas a tramway would not be.

Tbf it's quite a wide alignment you could easily fit a single track and keep a cycleway.

You wouldn't get too far before you hit a few houses but you could at least add one station to the line. Ideally it'd continue to Cosmeston too due to the new housing down that way.

 

[anthony263]

When considering future improvements, extending the line beyond Penarth to Lower Penarth along a previous track alignment, now a cycle/walkway merits consideration

It was proposed but stopped because of locals campaigning against it however I think they might be more accepting if the 398s are used.

Hopefully in the future thenqires are extended to the south of Cardiff

 

[Smwrff]

My understanding on Penarth extension is it is currently blocked due to Network Rail not permitting Tram Trains on its part of the network (Central to Cogan). But Cogan to Penarth could be transferred to TfW.

 

[MikePJ]

It was proposed but stopped because of locals campaigning against it however I think they might be more accepting if the 398s are used.

Hopefully in the future thenqires are extended to the south of Cardiff

I live in Penarth (though on the other side of town from the station) and knowing the local population, I'm pretty sure they won't care what trains are used - it'll be the usual arguments about a quiet, naturalistic amenity suddenly being full of fast-moving vehicles. From experience elsewhere, notably Oxford, wealthy areas are the absolute worst for opposing new rail infrastructure of any kind, as they can afford to mount expensive legal challenges!


There was a consultation about a station at Alexandra Head (the Cardiff end of the barrage) at one stage, and I thought it was a weird place to put a station as there's almost nothing there apart from very occasional outdoor gigs in the summer. It's adjacent to the commercial dock, so unless ABP gives up operations entirely, there's not much likelihood of any residential or commercial development there.

 

[Smwrff]

There is one new station planned for Penarth line at Cogan - the existing station is on the Barry line only.

This will serve Penarth Marina and also allow Penarth passengers to change here for Barry, instead of continuing on to Grangetown.

There is also another new station planned along Penarth Road nearby the Pumping Station. This will serve the new housing planned near IKEA, and could include a P&R.

 

[MikePJ]

Given that Cogan station will have 5tph to Cardiff when Phase 1 is done, I’m surprised that adding platforms on the Penarth branch adds enough value to justify the cost!

 

[chargesmith]

Another question is whether there are any places along the existing network where building new stations makes sense, e.g. I think RCT council want a second station at Pontypridd where the old Goods station was, and I think building a station near Glyncoch between there and Abercynon could serve both Glyncoch and Cilfynydd (with well designed footpaths) so quite a large population. Given how much quicker the tram trains will get up to speed than 150s I don't think building extra stations would slow down journey times too much.

 

[positron]

Given that Cogan station will have 5tph to Cardiff when Phase 1 is done, I’m surprised that adding platforms on the Penarth branch adds enough value to justify the cost!

Well it's been 'planned' for some time, it's never made it onto many official documents. The gasworks one was on a recent document I think regarding cross rail works but that was the council I think rather than tfw.

 

[Smwrff]

This is the 'speculation' thread but in this case more of an 'aspiration'.

Yes - I think it was a Crossrail document where these two stations appeared - but this line is owned/operated by NR not TfW so don't expect any quick progress.

 

[John R]

I live in Penarth (though on the other side of town from the station) and knowing the local population, I'm pretty sure they won't care what trains are used - it'll be the usual arguments about a quiet, naturalistic amenity suddenly being full of fast-moving vehicles. From experience elsewhere, notably Oxford, wealthy areas are the absolute worst for opposing new rail infrastructure of any kind, as they can afford to mount expensive legal challenges!

IIRC when it was previously seriously proposed the only rolling stock option was the incumbent “nasty noisy smelly diesels” such as Pacers and 150s.

I wonder whether the use of 756s running on battery would shift the dial at all, given the advantages that having a station much closer to them would bring in terms of access to Cardiff, both in terms of convenience for employment and house prices.

Having said that, I suspect the authorities might think “ well you oppposed it so vehemently then, we’re not going to waste and time and money trying to persuade you why it’s a good idea now, and will invest our time on communities who are demonstrably more keen to have the benefit of a modern transport network.”

 

[positron]

The image below shows the cogan interchange idea along with the new southern grangetown station. Interestingly it also seems to suggest electrifying the Penarth branch and running trams to it, with mention of coryton services (reversing at the bay I guess?).



This image from https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/graha...crossrail-with-further-gi-planned-06-12-2024/

 

[anthony263]

The image below shows the cogan interchange idea along with the new southern grangetown station. Interestingly it also seems to suggest electrifying the Penarth branch and running trams to it, with mention of coryton services (reversing at the bay I guess?).


View attachment 170620
This image from https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/graha...crossrail-with-further-gi-planned-06-12-2024/

Too e honest sorting Cardiff West junction to remove the.bottle knock meeds to happen ASAP.

There was talk of sending all 4tph from Treherbert down to Penarth if the line is electrified. The circle line would take take 4tph between heath low level and central so replacing the current Penarth to Coryton and Caerphilly shuttle

 

[Smwrff]

Cardiff West Junction is included in CP7 - but I don't know if it is the limited at-grade improvement - or the more ambitious underpass.

The underpass is not needed for current services but is a neccessity for planned NW Corridor.

 

[anthony263]

Cardiff West Junction is included in CP7 - but I don't know if it is the limited at-grade improvement - or the more ambitious underpass.

The underpass is not needed for current services but is a neccessity for planned NW Corridor.

I believe the current plan is just to fit an additional track tp allow for 4tph on the cityline however anymore will need the underpass

 

[MikePJ]

The image below shows the cogan interchange idea along with the new southern grangetown station. Interestingly it also seems to suggest electrifying the Penarth branch and running trams to it, with mention of coryton services (reversing at the bay I guess?).

That’s a very interesting diagram, and definitely not a proposal I’ve seen before. It doesn’t talk about capacity improvements on the Penarth branch, so I’m assuming it means 2tph Penarth - Cardiff Bay via Callaghan Square and 2tph Penarth - Coryton, with Coryton then gaining a 2tph service to Radyr in addition to the current 2tph Merthyr/Aberdare services.

The station at the Pumping Station (lower end of Penarth Road, near the river Ely) makes sense. The Cogan one is still weird to me, unless the plan is to provide a shuttle bus from there to Llandough Hospital? I just can’t see how the Cogan area needs that many trains, not that I’d complain if it happens!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Dec 2024 ==

(If we’re truly into fantasy, it would be brilliant to have a cable car linking Cogan station with Llandough Hospital!)

 

[positron]

That’s a very interesting diagram, and definitely not a proposal I’ve seen before. It doesn’t talk about capacity improvements on the Penarth branch, so I’m assuming it means 2tph Penarth - Cardiff Bay via Callaghan Square and 2tph Penarth - Coryton, with Coryton then gaining a 2tph service to Radyr in addition to the current 2tph Merthyr/Aberdare services.

Well Penarth already handles 4tph with the single track line, perhaps the new drop-off platform allows that to go to 6tph?

The Cogan one is still weird to me, unless the plan is to provide a shuttle bus from there to Llandough Hospital? I just can’t see how the Cogan area needs that many trains, not that I’d complain if it happens!

Potentially it's to improve travel to the west from Penarth since they don't have their direct Barry connection anymore. It could also serve the sports village area across the river Ely which currently doesn't have much in the way of rail provision (both grangetown and Cardiff Bay stations are quite far?).

 

[John R]

The new drop off platform appears to have been err… dropped off the plan, judging by the most recent reports on here.

 

[positron]

The new drop off platform appears to have been err… dropped off the plan, judging by the most recent reports on here.

That'd be problematic for service consistency in the event of disruption. The turnaround is really tight right now. Hopefully it's just network rail being slow...

 

[John R]

That'd be problematic for service consistency in the event of disruption. The turnaround is really tight right now. Hopefully it's just network rail being slow...

It already is with 4tph. The frequency doesn’t change with the proposed timetable.

 

[Smwrff]

The diagram has appeared in various of the Cardiff Crossrail proposals but this is (I think) the first time it has shown Cogan and Pumping Station stations.

I think that Crossrail is a great idea and a natural development of the Metro... BUT... I remember the first proposal to create a circle line by extending Coryton line to Radyr... More than 40 years ago. I will believe it when the shovels hit the ground.

 

[daodao]

I remember the first proposal to create a circle line by extending Coryton line to Radyr... More than 40 years ago. I will believe it when the shovels hit the ground.

There may be some purpose in extending the Coryton branch to serve the new Velindre Hospital and a park & ride facility close to Asda/M4 junction 32, as the alignment of the former Cardiff Railway is largely intact thus far. A dynamic passing loop alongside Caedelyn Park between Rhiwbina and the pedestrian level crossing just east of Whitchurch would be essential to maintain service frequency.

However, building a railway further across the Taff valley to Radyr would require a major viaduct. Given that most traffic from Cardiff suburban stations is to/from the city centre, extending the Coryton branch beyond a park & ride facility close to Asda/M4 junction 32 is unlikely to have a good business case.

 

[Smwrff]

Agreed - it looks nice on a map, but I can think of much better uses for that level of investment, eg 4 tracking north of Cardiff Queen Street and grade separation at Cardiff West

 

[MikePJ]

The engineering's really hard for that viaduact. It might be more cost-effective to extend the Coryton line to serve Velindre and terminate at Forest Farm, and provide an out-of-station interchange so that people can walk across the footbridge to Radyr.

 

[Topological]

I think a line from Swansea Docks to Onllwyn / Glynneath would be well used, if it also uses tram trains could also run on street to Swansea City Centre and maybe down to the University and even the Mumbles. If not feasible, just terminate at Swansea East Park and Ride and integrate the ticketing. I don't see many people using a full link via the Cynon Valley so probably not worth it.

I think joining up Swansea and Cardiff Metros would allow Wales something of a first over England. In China there is a high-speed train approximately every 10 minutes between Shanghai and Suzhou. The high-speed line takes between 20 and 30 minutes depending on the number of stops. The distance is similar to Cardiff and Swansea. However, recently the two metro systems were connected and there are plans for more connections. I like the idea of cities with joined-up metros.

There may be some economies of scale with the connection allowing heavier servicing of stock in Cardiff.

(It would be great if there was a 20 minute high speed journey from Swansea to Cardiff as well)

 

[positron]

(It would be great if there was a 20 minute high speed journey from Swansea to Cardiff as well)

Unfortunately the residents/politicians of Neath kicked off at a proposal that would have got it down to I think 30 minutes because they wanted to keep their direct London services (sadly we're obsessed with direct services in the UK).

 

[Smwrff]

While I agree that a Circle connection would not be financially justifiable, I fail to see why the engineering would be difficult. It is a rail bridge over a river (probably Light Rail standards).

It has been suggested that instead of a pure circle, it could be a teardrop - with a turnback at Taffs Well - which would be useful for the maintenance depot

 

[daodao]

While I agree that a Circle connection would not be financially justifiable, I fail to see why the engineering would be difficult. It is a rail bridge over a river (probably Light Rail standards).

It has been suggested that instead of a pure circle, it could be a teardrop - with a turnback at Taffs Well - which would be useful for the maintenance depot

There is a significant height difference between Coryton and Radyr stations and there is no obvious route between them; I have walked between them on several occasions via a zig-zag series of footpaths past the disused canal. A rail link would require major engineering. As for running to Taffs Well, the former Cardiff Railway alignment north of Longwood Drive through Tongwynlais towards Taffs Well has been mostly obliterated by road construction for M4 junction 32 and the A470.

 

[Smwrff]

The proposal is not to link Coryton and Radyr directly - but to extend Coryton north first to Velindre and J32.
After that there are options - with pros and cons.

If all engineering was easy you would not need engineers!

 

[hilly]

While I agree that a Circle connection would not be financially justifiable, I fail to see why the engineering would be difficult. It is a rail bridge over a river (probably Light Rail standards).

It has been suggested that instead of a pure circle, it could be a teardrop - with a turnback at Taffs Well - which would be useful for the maintenance depot

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The Cardiff railway alignment is at this level, the core valley lines between radyr and taffs well is at the bottom of the hill, with the obvious route blocked by the m4

 

[positron]

I think it would end up being a tunnel through Longwood drive and then a sharp turn to the left parallel to the M4 before it turns either left or right on a ramp to the right level. They've got more flexibility with tram trains regarding the curves.

I think it's more likely they simply extend with a velindre station, to a station at Longwood drive and that'll be the end for the foreseeable. As others have said I doubt it will have the business case required to spend what will be needed (the tunnel and bridge isn't the only issue there's high voltage electrical wires that run near the M4 right where they'd need to run the trams).