South Wales Metro - Future

[Rhydgaled]

I agree as the basic instinct in me suggests the Coryton branch is ideal for tram-train beyond its end as well as at the other end (down the bay). Don't need a loo for those shorter journeys. The city line as far as Radyr makes sense for tram-train as well.

Precisely; sending trains/tram-trains without toilets all the way to the heads of the valleys seems a bit off to me but trams Coryton-Radyr (extended to Taffs Well at one or both ends of the journey to get the 398s to and from their depot) and down to Cardiff Bay should be fine.

I don't have an issue with machen-caerphilly being done the tram train standards if it means it happens. I don't personally think they'd be the natural fit for the marches stoppers.

My concern with the tram-train standards is the lack of toilets (and seats, if they're anything like the 'make nearly everyone stand, we'll get more pax. in that way' design of the Manchester Metrolink M5000 trams).

Regarding the provision of through trains between Ebbw Vale / Abertillery / Caerphilly and the Marches, my gut feeling was that a large proportion of the passengers using the Marches stoppers would want Cardiff; so it seems we are in agreement on that point. I only suggested it because it seems unlikely that Newport station would be able to handle 4tph from Ebbw Vale / Abertillery / Caerphilly needing to turn back, so it's more that I'm trying to find somewhere to run those services through to rather than any suggestion that passengers from Caerleon would be particularly interested in having through trains to Caerphilly or Ebbw Vale. Similarly, I guess a Hereford-Gloucester service, avoiding Newport via the east side of the Maindee triangle, would not be a particularly attractive option for a second Marches stopper each hour (the first being Hereford-Cardiff), the preference being for more trains to Cardiff? In which case, what do you do with a possible 4tph arriving in Newport from the Ebbw Vale direction?

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Precisely; sending trains/tram-trains without toilets all the way to the heads of the valleys seems a bit off to me but trams Coryton-Radyr (extended to Taffs Well at one or both ends of the journey to get the 398s to and from their depot) and down to Cardiff Bay should be fine.


My concern with the tram-train standards is the lack of toilets (and seats, if they're anything like the 'make nearly everyone stand, we'll get more pax. in that way' design of the Manchester Metrolink M5000 trams).

Regarding the provision of through trains between Ebbw Vale / Abertillery / Caerphilly and the Marches, my gut feeling was that a large proportion of the passengers using the Marches stoppers would want Cardiff; so it seems we are in agreement on that point. I only suggested it because it seems unlikely that Newport station would be able to handle 4tph from Ebbw Vale / Abertillery / Caerphilly needing to turn back, so it's more that I'm trying to find somewhere to run those services through to rather than any suggestion that passengers from Caerleon would be particularly interested in having through trains to Caerphilly or Ebbw Vale. Similarly, I guess a Hereford-Gloucester service, avoiding Newport via the east side of the Maindee triangle, would not be a particularly attractive option for a second Marches stopper each hour (the first being Hereford-Cardiff), the preference being for more trains to Cardiff? In which case, what do you do with a possible 4tph arriving in Newport from the Ebbw Vale direction?

I thought it was 4 tph on the line rather than to Newport? With two going to Cardiff or have they upped this?

The Ebbw Vale line to Newport makes sense, given they are known as the "Newport Valleys" but attaching these to the Cheltenham's as suggested above seems as pointless as the way they join Cheltenham to Maesteg (and I say this as someone who sometimes commutes Chepstow to Bridgend). Operationally it makes some sense, but the current plan of the Ebbw Vale - Cardiff trains running through to Maesteg makes the most sense as both branches are low speed and single for a long part of the route, meaning delays are kept to lines that are expected to have them, rather than a line such as Gloucester to Newport which needs to be operationally sound incase of diversions around the tunnel.

With regards to the tram trains, it is a trade off I guess. The money likely wouldn't have been there for a Rhymney style service to all three rail heads and they wanted rid of diesel all together on those lines anyways, so the rolling stock is what best will cope with the infrastructure. I do have ideas for this but I don't want to stray too far off topic. Will journey times change at all with the 398s in service?

Is there a speculative thread relating to such matters yet? I can't find one and feel that a new thread will not take what I think on the matter of Newport to Ebbw Vale and the trams as useful unless adding to a conversation so will keep it on the DL for now.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I thought it was 4 tph on the line rather than to Newport? With two going to Cardiff or have they upped this?

Sorry; perhaps I should have explained that better. I was assuming 2tph Caerphilly-Machen-Newport in addition to Ebbw Vale / Abertillery services. Thus you are correct that there is no plan for 4tph between Llanhilleth (etc.) and Newport. However add in 2tph from Machen, as I did, and it is potentially still 4tph terminating at Newport.

With regards to the tram trains, it is a trade off I guess. The money likely wouldn't have been there for a Rhymney style service to all three rail heads and they wanted rid of diesel all together on those lines anyways, so the rolling stock is what best will cope with the infrastructure. I do have ideas for this but I don't want to stray too far off topic. Will journey times change at all with the 398s in service?

Has the relative cost of a class 398 compared to a 756 or 231 been published anywhere? As far as I'm aware, the expected Metro infrastructure on Treherebert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil (TAM) routes is equally able to support class 756 and class 398 units (there have been suggestions that the 756s will enter service on the TAM lines first since the progress with electrification there is ahead of that on Rhymney).

 

[Mr. Angry]

Build an new platform at Newport.

 

[Envoy]

Moderator note: Split from

South Wales 'Metro' updates

The thing is that they do give a commentary, but only when they have something good to say. E.g. they made a big fuss when the 231s came in, but didn't mention that putting them on the services to Penarth was only temporary. But IIRC, when they were brought in the intention is that they...

www.railforums.co.uk

I see that this thread has just surpassed 1 million views. I would like to thank everyone that has taken the time to make a contribution. We are now at an exciting stage of the project with the sprinters finally on the way out and the new stock taking over.

I would think that the next top priority would be to get the capacity issue at Cardiff West junction sorted out as 30 minute frequencies on the City Line is not ideal for an urban railway through high density suburbs.

A quick win in the valleys would be an extension to Hirwaun.

It is disappointing to see a lack of progress in creating new stations on the main line between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff. The huge population of east Cardiff have to go along congested roads to reach Cardiff Central station or go all the way to Newport for rail access. I guess most of them will drive if they have cars.

 

[positron]

> A quick win in the valleys would be an extension to Hirwaun.

Yes and it would be a great proof of why the tram-trains are worth it when people in the valleys get a perceived benefit from them. Not just 'oh yeah the Senedd politicians can get a better train service'. It would also be relatively cheap compared to other things such as the North west corridor given there's a track bed ready to go.

Another more speculative (apologies) idea would be using the Dowlais line to provide some services to Nelson/Trelewis, or the Machen quarry line to provide new services there. These are the sorts of Metro phase 3 projects that will be needed to show it's not just about Cardiff.

 

[WelshBluebird]

These are the sorts of Metro phase 3 projects that will be needed to show it's not just about Cardiff.

I mean the fact the frequency improvements are going to be on the valleys routes whilst the Cardiff city line remains at 2pth is enough to show that surely? Though saying that after being back home for a few days and talking to people, it does seem there is a high degree of pessimism around if the 4tph to the heads of the valley's will actually happen! Maybe fair pessimism given what people have had to put up with over the years - but it does mean if 4tph to each of the valleys does roll out as planned next year then that should in theory be an instant win.

 

[anthony263]

> A quick win in the valleys would be an extension to Hirwaun.

Yes and it would be a great proof of why the tram-trains are worth it when people in the valleys get a perceived benefit from them. Not just 'oh yeah the Senedd politicians can get a better train service'. It would also be relatively cheap compared to other things such as the North west corridor given there's a track bed ready to go.

Another more speculative (apologies) idea would be using the Dowlais line to provide some services to Nelson/Trelewis, or the Machen quarry line to provide new services there. These are the sorts of Metro phase 3 projects that will be needed to show it's not just about Cardiff.

How about a Dowlais to Newport service via Caerphilly if the line between Caerphilly and Machen can be reopened

 

[CapitalStar378]

How about a Dowlais to Newport service via Caerphilly if the line between Caerphilly and Machen can be reopened

There are some great longer term aspirations but it would also be great to get some easier Cardiff projects done sooner rather than later. A passing loop at Rhiwbina, the Cardiff West junction frequency works and Crwys Road station as well as the Pierhead extension. Cardiff still has 2tph on the City line and Coryton lines which isn't ideal and doesn't encourage modal shift to trains.

 

[Bob Price]

How about a Dowlais to Newport service via Caerphilly if the line between Caerphilly and Machen can be reopened

As someone who is currently researching that line I can honestly say there is no way that will be happening. Too much under buildings

 

[EveningStarr]

Ho boy, what a lot of stuff that could be said in this discussion!

Loving the support for reopening the Nelson and Machen lines for passengers, would definitely be useful!
If Ystrad Mynach to Beldinog (and possibly up to Dowlais?) had its stations built, the current CPH terminators could instead run up there, thus giving Aber>Ystrad 6 trains per hour and not clogging up Cardiff with any more trains.
Reopening stations on the Machen line and running them to Newport and/or Cardiff initially with a scope to rebuild the rest of the line to Caerphilly would be brilliant too. Single track for the most part if course. If it were to use the trackbed of the former Up line from Machen to CPH, there'd be much fewer compulsory purchases that if it were to use the former Down line via Waterloo. I wonder how feasible it would be to start off along the cycle path from Machen station then drop down to road level where the A468 runs parallel, instead of following the exact path of the old line?

It would obviously need more trains to run these services, so more storage would be needed, given Canton is full to capacity. How about the old bitumen plant to the south of the line between CPH and the tunnel? IIRC there were plans to build houses on this site, which were rejected due to road traffic implications and spreading up the mountain on greenfield sites, whereas railway depot/sidings would only have staff traffic after the initial construction, and would obviously remain on the flat brownfield wasteland. Plus convenient access to Rhymney, Nelson and Machen lines.... and maybe Senghennydd too??

Ah, wishful thinking.

 

[positron]

As someone who is currently researching that line I can honestly say there is no way that will be happening. Too much under buildings

Isn't most of it a cycleway? From what I remember you can get from Machen quarry to Bedwas pretty easily. There's perhaps 3 buildings in the way on Lewis/Church street in Machen. You wouldn't even need to actually connect up to Caerphilly if you wanted to run Newport - Nelson services you could go from Bedwas north to Llanbradach (admittedly that would need a bridge across the valley).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==

There are some great longer term aspirations but it would also be great to get some easier Cardiff projects done sooner rather than later. A passing loop at Rhiwbina, the Cardiff West junction frequency works and Crwys Road station as well as the Pierhead extension. Cardiff still has 2tph on the City line and Coryton lines which isn't ideal and doesn't encourage modal shift to trains.

Tbf Cryws road is part of the already committed plans so that one at least will happen. But I agree the rest are no brainers. I was just thinking of non-cardiff projects, because I personally think you do need one or two of those to help fight the claims of Cardiff bias.

One more that comes to mind is Maesteg 2tph. Even if it's just a shuttle down to Bridgend. That would somewhat mirror the recent Ebbw - Newport addition.

While we're being speculative I could forsee a potential 2nd Maesteg service running to Cardiff Via the VOG line if that's needed to avoid capacity issues on the mainline. Would serve as a second train for the airport too.

 

[Topological]

Once they reach Hirwaun, they can continue all the way down to Neath and into Swansea Docks...

Although the journey times end-to-end would not make sense, such a route would give a strong investment signal across South Wales. It would also be the start of a Swansea metro (other lines may then use the Jersey Marine Junctions to reach the district line)

 

[anthony263]

Isn't most of it a cycleway? From what I remember you can get from Machen quarry to Bedwas pretty easily. There's perhaps 3 buildings in the way on Lewis/Church street in Machen. You wouldn't even need to actually connect up to Caerphilly if you wanted to run Newport - Nelson services you could go from Bedwas north to Llanbradach (admittedly that would need a bridge across the valley).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==


Tbf Cryws road is part of the already committed plans so that one at least will happen. But I agree the rest are no brainers. I was just thinking of non-cardiff projects, because I personally think you do need one or two of those to help fight the claims of Cardiff bias.

One more that comes to mind is Maesteg 2tph. Even if it's just a shuttle down to Bridgend. That would somewhat mirror the recent Ebbw - Newport addition.

While we're being speculative I could forsee a potential 2nd Maesteg service running to Cardiff Via the VOG line if that's needed to avoid capacity issues on the mainline. Would serve as a second train for the airport too.

Maesteg branch id rather have as a half hourly Bridgend to Maesteg shuttle. Ideally a route for battery train s

 

[MikePJ]

Following a comment on another thread about the need to terminate trains at Central, I’m wondering if there is value in building a third platform at Grangetown (where there’s plenty of space) to terminate trains? This would reduce the pressure on platforms at Central. My first thought was to use it to terminate the Treherbert trains that currently terminate and change ends in platform 7, but if it were built as a loop platform it could also be used during disruption to terminate trains from Barry or Penarth.

I suspect that the constraints on Cardiff West junction probably prevent extra trains running between Central and Grangetown, however!

 

[positron]

I suspect that the constraints on Cardiff West junction probably prevent extra trains running between Central and Grangetown, however!

Yeah that issue really needs solving to be able to do much else to the metro. Other than changes that don't interact with the Cardiff area e.g. extending Caerphilly terminator.

 

[chargesmith]

Maesteg branch id rather have as a half hourly Bridgend to Maesteg shuttle. Ideally a route for battery train s

I've always wondered how feasible a Maesteg - Swansea service would be, as far as I can see it would need passing loops at Tondu, an upgrade of the freight line from Tondu to Port Talbot steelworks and some resignalling / track reprofiling in the steelworks area, but I would have thought giving Maesteg valley residents a decent service to both Cardiff and Swansea would be a good thing?

 

[positron]

I've always wondered how feasible a Maesteg - Swansea service would be, as far as I can see it would need passing loops at Tondu, an upgrade of the freight line from Tondu to Port Talbot steelworks and some resignalling / track reprofiling in the steelworks area, but I would have thought giving Maesteg valley residents a decent service to both Cardiff and Swansea would be a good thing?

That line is unfortunately in a pretty bad state so would need a complete redo. At least the route is intact. Though I imagine it'd be better to run a shuttle to Bridgend and swap there. I don't think there's really anywhere big enough on the freight line to justify intermediate stops on it?

One other thing that's worth remembering is that lines owned by transport for Wales are much more likely to see attention in the short term, even 1 platform and a tiny passing loop at Penarth is taking network rail longer than the rest of the valleys upgrades.

It would be great if Maesteg, and Ebbw Vale (including Machen) were transferred to TfW. That's probably the only way that the passing loop happens any time soon.

 

[chargesmith]

Following a comment on another thread about the need to terminate trains at Central, I’m wondering if there is value in building a third platform at Grangetown (where there’s plenty of space) to terminate trains? This would reduce the pressure on platforms at Central. My first thought was to use it to terminate the Treherbert trains that currently terminate and change ends in platform 7, but if it were built as a loop platform it could also be used during disruption to terminate trains from Barry or Penarth.

I suspect that the constraints on Cardiff West junction probably prevent extra trains running between Central and Grangetown, however!

I see the logic in this but without changing the way Cardiff West junction works you're never going to get any new lines up and running around Plasdwr. If it works how I see it in my mind though, it could be a cheap way of getting 4tph on the City Line but with an extra stop at Grangetown to turn around and bypass Cardiff West. Probably more complex than that and also suspect however that doing so would add quite a lot of time which would be unpopular.

 

[chargesmith]

Once they reach Hirwaun, they can continue all the way down to Neath and into Swansea Docks...

Although the journey times end-to-end would not make sense, such a route would give a strong investment signal across South Wales. It would also be the start of a Swansea metro (other lines may then use the Jersey Marine Junctions to reach the district line)

I think a line from Swansea Docks to Onllwyn / Glynneath would be well used, if it also uses tram trains could also run on street to Swansea City Centre and maybe down to the University and even the Mumbles. If not feasible, just terminate at Swansea East Park and Ride and integrate the ticketing. I don't see many people using a full link via the Cynon Valley so probably not worth it.

 

[Dr Day]

One other thing that's worth remembering is that lines owned by transport for Wales are much more likely to see attention in the short term, even 1 platform and a tiny passing loop at Penarth is taking network rail longer than the rest of the valleys upgrades.

Is ownership per se the issue or funding, including whether schemes are part of a wider programme or not? It would be interesting to compare the like-for-like costs of a passing loop delivered by TfW with one delivered by Network Rail, to fully understand the extent of 'gold plating' that really goes on under the same safety and environmental legislation.

 

[positron]

Is ownership per se the issue or funding, including whether schemes are part of a wider programme or not? It would be interesting to compare the like-for-like costs of a passing loop delivered by TfW with one delivered by Network Rail, to fully understand the extent of 'gold plating' that really goes on under the same safety and environmental legislation.

I think a big thing is just prioritisation. Even if TfW gave the money to Network Rail it'd still take a while. Stuff for them is planned far in advance.

The other aspect is that TfW could decide to do Machen to Caerphilly under tram standards if that helped them save money which network rail is unlikely to be willing to do to their assets. Obviously Maesteg they wouldn't do that because they're using 231s but for other things it could be helpful.

 

[MikePJ]

I see the logic in this but without changing the way Cardiff West junction works you're never going to get any new lines up and running around Plasdwr. If it works how I see it in my mind though, it could be a cheap way of getting 4tph on the City Line but with an extra stop at Grangetown to turn around and bypass Cardiff West. Probably more complex than that and also suspect however that doing so would add quite a lot of time which would be unpopular.

Yeah, I think the idea of having a City Line train make a triangular journey from Ninian Park - Grangetown (change ends) - Central would be very unpopular with the passengers! The Cardiff West issue is specifically about conflicts between trains accessing platform 6 and 7, where an eastbound train wanting to access platform 6 or 7 prevents a westbound train from accessing the City Line as they both need to use the same single track in opposite directions.

The Treherbert trains currently block platform 7 for around 16 minutes during their turnaround, meaning that the platform is blocked for more than 30 minutes in each hour. If they were instead able to continue to Grangetown (3-4 minutes each way) and change ends there, it would make more efficient use of platform capacity at Central, but you probably wouldn't be able to enhance services any further because you're still limited by the capacity of the junction. Of course if the junction is eventually remodelled then it does make sense to avoid terminating trains at Central.

 

[Caaardiff]

I've always wondered how feasible a Maesteg - Swansea service would be, as far as I can see it would need passing loops at Tondu, an upgrade of the freight line from Tondu to Port Talbot steelworks and some resignalling / track reprofiling in the steelworks area, but I would have thought giving Maesteg valley residents a decent service to both Cardiff and Swansea would be a good thing?

If they could put a passing loop at Tondu then a Maesteg - Bridgend - Swanline stations - Swansea route would work better. It would provide a half hourly train from Maesteg to Bridgend where people could change from the Swansea bound train onto other services towards Cardiff. Pathing between Bridgend - Swansea with another stopper may be an issue though.

 

[anthony263]

I've always wondered how feasible a Maesteg - Swansea service would be, as far as I can see it would need passing loops at Tondu, an upgrade of the freight line from Tondu to Port Talbot steelworks and some resignalling / track reprofiling in the steelworks area, but I would have thought giving Maesteg valley residents a decent service to both Cardiff and Swansea would be a good thing?

You. Need to reinstate the connection off the the branch to join the mainline at Margam.

At the moment you'd have to go through Margam yard. You obviously need a passing loop too the old one at cefn junction is long gone so probably have to modify the run round loop at the open cast in Kenfig hill. You could put at station there

 

[MikePJ]

Does anyone know anything about this proposal to build a short branch line to Abertillery? https://www.cardiffcapitalregion.wa...us-abertillery-transport-hub/#project-updates The website suggests that some funding was allocated to it (presumably for a feasibility study) - did it prove to be feaseless?

 

[Smwrff]

Abertillery branch was one of the options which was positively screened for inclusion in Metro project - but not included in Phase 1. Similar to Hirwaun extension.

I expect it will be resurrected in the future maybe with Abertillery to Newport services alternating with Ebbw Vale to Cardiff services.

 

[positron]

Abertillery branch was one of the options which was positively screened for inclusion in Metro project - but not included in Phase 1. Similar to Hirwaun extension.

I expect it will be resurrected in the future maybe with Abertillery to Newport services alternating with Ebbw Vale to Cardiff services.

I believe some plans had 2tph to abertillery and 2tph to Ebbw vale. With 1 of each pair going to Newport and the other Cardiff. But idk if that will actually end up being the case, if it ever gets built.

 

[Last Hurrah]

When considering future improvements, extending the line beyond Penarth to Lower Penarth along a previous track alignment, now a cycle/walkway merits consideration

 

[MikePJ]

When considering future improvements, extending the line beyond Penarth to Lower Penarth along a previous track alignment, now a cycle/walkway merits consideration

I think that one would meet a lot of local, wealthy opposition - the cyclepath is heavily used and seen as a desirable amenity, whereas a tramway would not be.