Southern Region early 60s

[ArtyP]

A few photos from my late Fathers archive, the double headed locos are the 1540 Fawley to Bromfield Bridge oil train leaving Salisbury 2 Sep 61 2-8-2 No 7242 (88B) and 4-6-0 45662

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thank you for sharing these photos. There's much to enjoy in these.

That shot of West Country 34035, I never realised it carried a semi wraparound smoke deflector style. Almost looks like an assassin's hood...
@Gloster with your knowledge, do you know if this was the only Light Pacific thus treated?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

'35, 'Shaftesbury' was I believe the only one so fitted. It was one of a number of mods undertaken at its General overhaul during Oct/Nov 1959, this particular mod being the latest attempt to lift drifting smoke clear of the casing to improve crew forward visibility. Seems a tad bizarre they went to the trouble, as by early '58 the rebuilding programme of Light Pacifics had already started*. (* Edited: the first to be rebuilt was 'Barnstaple' in June '57).

Couple of other locations: 35007 is at Exeter Central and 30739 Bournemouth Central shed.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @Big Jumby 74 re: front end treatment of WC 34035. It certainly changes the visual "stance".

 

[yorksrob]

I'd have loved to have experienced the CEP's and HAP's when new.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I'm marvelling at the photo of a Jubilee and a big 72xx (which I had thought didn't stray from south Wales) at the head of the Fawley oil.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Can't be certain, but my guess would be the 72xx came on at Salisbury, as (IIRC) many GW locos, those with tapered cylinders, as per 72xx, 'Hall's etc I don't think had clearance on many SR routes for reasons of platforms, but will stand corrected. 45662 was a Bristol Barrow Road loco round about that time, so en route home. Perhaps it had failed and was getting a drag?

 

[30907]

Can't be certain, but my guess would be the 72xx came on at Salisbury,

I'm marvelling at the photo of a Jubilee and a big 72xx (which I had thought didn't stray from south Wales) at the head of the Fawley oil.

72xx I believe regularly worked to Salisbury (but no further!) with coal from S Wales.

BTW the destination was Bromford Br.

 

[D6130]

Can't be certain, but my guess would be the 72xx came on at Salisbury, as (IIRC) many GW locos, those with tapered cylinders, as per 72xx, 'Hall's etc I don't think had clearance on many SR routes for reasons of platforms, but will stand corrected. 45662 was a Bristol Barrow Road loco round about that time, so en route home. Perhaps it had failed and was getting a drag?

I should imagine that a Jubilee - even a Bristol-based one - would have been a pretty rare sight on the Southern in any era. Come to that I would have thought that a combination of a 7200 and a Jubilee would have been a pretty rare sight anywhere. IMHO, that photo has tremendous historic significance.

From photos that I have seen in various books and magazines, I was under the impression that the Fawley-Bromford Bridge tanker trains were booked for Saltley-based 9Fs in the early 1960's....normally running via the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line. Could there have been a diversion on this occasion? When was the derailment at Whitchurch Town?

EDIT: According to Wikipedia, the (second) derailment at Whitchurch Town - involving BR Standard class 4MT 2-6-0 no. 76026 running through the trap points at the South end of the loop and spreading its freight train everywhere - took place on 12/02/1960....so maybe the photo at Salisbury was taken at about that time?

 

[6Gman]

72xx I believe regularly worked to Salisbury (but no further!) with coal from S Wales.

Indeed.

In 1953 there was an 0235 Radyr-Salisbury East Yard and an 0645 Severn Tunnel Junction-East Yard; return empties to STJ.

 

[Taunton]

I'm marvelling at the photo of a Jubilee and a big 72xx (which I had thought didn't stray from south Wales) at the head of the Fawley oil.

72xx, South Wales based, were very common at Salisbury on coal trains from South Wales to the Southern Region, and could turn up multiple times a day, via the Severn Tunnel, Bristol East curve, and Westbury. Common start points were Pontypool Road or Severn Tunnel Junction. What I don't know is why they were favoured over a tender loco. They did have very substantial coal and water capacity.

The Jubilee on the other hand was more of a rarity here, but 45662 Kempenfelt was to the end a longstanding Bristol Barrow Road stalwart, which was the last steam depot in the city and took over a number of steam duties all round on the Western.

 

[Harvester]

In February 1963 Royal Scot 46141 worked into Southampton on a banana special via Westbury and Salisbury. There is a photograph in Modern Railways of it in Southhampton Docks, with the liner Queen Elizabeth in the background. What is even more surprising is that the loco was allocated to Carlisle Upperby at the time!

 

[Big Jumby 74]

45662 was noted passing Southampton Central with the 2-20pm Fawley to Bromford Bridge tanks on (Thursday) 21st September 1961. Source: Railway Observer for Nov '61. Patriots were slightly more frequent visitors to the area by all accounts, but Jub's extremely rare. No other mention (in the RO) of Kempenfelt on this occasion, so assume it worked in unnoticed (by any enthusiasts) to Fawley on the booked diagram?

Edit: The OP mentions the 2nd September (a Saturday). Which days did this train run? It is conceivable that 45662 worked the train on more than one occasion (unnoticed) prior to 21st, as in my own experience I have witnessed (on the job) occasions when certain locos were allocated to certain (freight) trains and then worked same turn for several days, then weren't seen again.

 

[Magdalia]

I have been looking in Railway Observer.

I was under the impression that the Fawley-Bromford Bridge tanker trains were booked for Saltley-based 9Fs in the early 1960's....normally running via the Didcot, Newbury and Southampton line.

This route was only used briefly, from 1962 to 1964. It isn't clear what route was used prior to 1962.

I should imagine that a Jubilee - even a Bristol-based one - would have been a pretty rare sight on the Southern in any era.

The November 1961 issue has the following:

The 2.20 pm Fawley-Bromford Bridge tank train still continues to be worked by interesting engines. 48669 worked on 20th September and 92138 on 22nd September. However, on 21st September it provided the most unusual spectacle of a Jubilee passing through Southampton Central when 45662 Kempenfelt worked the train. As has been noted in recent editions of the RO, Patriots have, on rare occasions, worked these tank trains, but this is certainly the first time that a Jubilee has been noted.

Big Jumby 74 just beat me to it!

45662 was noted passing Southampton Central with the 2-20pm Fawley to Bromford Bridge tanks on (Thursday) 21st September 1961. Source: Railway Observer for Nov '61. Patriots were slightly more frequent visitors to the area by all accounts, but Jub's extremely rare. No other mention (in the RO) of Kempenfelt on this occasion, so assume it worked in unnoticed (by any enthusiasts) to Fawley on the booked diagram?

While I was writing this:

'Hall's etc I don't think had clearance on many SR routes for reasons of platforms, but will stand corrected.

Halls had booked work onto the Southern including the daily York-Bournemouth and summer Saturday trains to Portsmouth Harbour via Basingstoke and Eastleigh.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Halls had booked work onto the Southern including the daily York-Bournemouth and summer Saturday trains to Portsmouth Harbour via Basingstoke and Eastleigh

Many thanks.

 

[D Williams]

'35, 'Shaftesbury' was I believe the only one so fitted. It was one of a number of mods undertaken at its General overhaul during Oct/Nov 1959, this particular mod being the latest attempt to lift drifting smoke clear of the casing to improve crew forward visibility. Seems a tad bizarre they went to the trouble, as by early '58 the rebuilding programme of Light Pacifics had already started*. (* Edited: the first to be rebuilt was 'Barnstaple' in June '57).

Couple of other locations: 35007 is at Exeter Central and 30739 Bournemouth Central shed.

This wasn't long after the Lewisham accident where drifting smoke was a factor also not all were to be rebuilt due to weight restrictions west of Exeter.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2024 ==

72xx, South Wales based, were very common at Salisbury on coal trains from South Wales to the Southern Region, and could turn up multiple times a day, via the Severn Tunnel, Bristol East curve, and Westbury. Common start points were Pontypool Road or Severn Tunnel Junction. What I don't know is why they were favoured over a tender loco. They did have very substantial coal and water capacity.

The Jubilee on the other hand was more of a rarity here, but 45662 Kempenfelt was to the end a longstanding Bristol Barrow Road stalwart, which was the last steam depot in the city and took over a number of steam duties all round on the Western.

What I don't know is why they were favoured over a tender loco
This was the type of work for which the 72xx was designed. Bear in mind these were converted from 42 / 52xx as many of these were in store following the reduction in coal traffic in the early 1930's. Extending the bunker , hence longer frames and a set of trailing wheels, extended the range. Coal trains travelled at a low speed and would have spent long periods in loops to allow faster trains to pass so the trip to Salisbury would have involved a lot of stops and starts. I wonder how popular these were with the crews but when you look at the variety of clanking things that were used on coal trains in the Midlands and the North and based on experience with a 42xx they would have been well on top of the job.

 

[Taunton]

The 72xx took these Salisbury turns over in the 1930s from the Aberdare 2-6-0s (tender), an early Churchward type still with a lot of Dean features. These latter also did coal trains to Swindon, for London, and northwards to Birkenhead. But as far as I know those runs went on to Collett 38xx tender locos.

Ex-GWR types had to be used on the Southern carefully, being just that bit wider. I can recall a Hall on shed at Taunton with minor scrape marks down the left hand cylinder cover; it had earlier been used on an excursion to Exmouth, which had previously been OK, but it just needed a trackside sign which had slumped a bit close, or the Permanent Way had ballasted up a bit beyond where it all was before. I don't know if Halls on the Cardiff to Portsmouth services, which they long monopolised, ever continued beyond Salisbury, especially as some of the stations on the twisty alignment beyond Southampton have notable curved platforms.

 

[anothertyke]

I have been looking in Railway Observer.


This route was only used briefly, from 1962 to 1964. It isn't clear what route was used prior to 1962.


The November 1961 issue has the following:



Big Jumby 74 just beat me to it!



While I was writing this:


Halls had booked work onto the Southern including the daily York-Bournemouth and summer Saturday trains to Portsmouth Harbour via Basingstoke and Eastleigh.

Michael Harvey's book Diary of a Trainspotter (available second hand for about £3) has numerous observations of Halls at Portsmouth and even four Castles, one of which was impounded at Fratton shed as out of gauge. The last Hall he records is 6937 on 10 July 1965.

 

[contrex]

I'd have loved to have experienced the CEP's and HAP's when new.

I did in 1959-62. They were an amazing change from what went before.

 

[yorksrob]

I did in 1959-62. They were an amazing change from what went before.

I bet they were !

 

[contrex]

I bet they were !

I was 6 in in 1958 and I remember an August Bank Holiday when the family went to Margate on a special that called at Herne Hill. It was a rake of grubby Maunsell and Bulleid coaches hauled by a filthy Bulleid Pacific. I remember seeing track panels stacked on the platform at Bromley South. The following August Bank Holiday in 1959, all change! EPB to Bromley South then brand new CEP/BEP/CEP from there to Margate and back in the evening. When I was tiny we used to go and see aunties in Orpington and sometimes we went in original 1925 type Southern Railway so-called 'SUBs' (that is 3-sets with an extra trailer added). 1960 was similar but, oh dear! in 1961 Mum & Dad got a car. A Ford Anglia 100E. So no more train rides, but I do remember waiting at level crossings in Kent and near Windsor, that year, and both times shiny looking newish HAPs went across.

 

[Taunton]

I bet they were !

Or not ...

We went on family holidays to Ostend in 1961 and 1962. Outwards Victoria to Dover, the first time we had a traditional compartment, it seemed strange and wooden, so I'm guessing something Southern prewar, couple of families, and surprisingly there was hot chicken and chips, in a basket, brought along by the steward. I have no idea whether this was cooked on the train or loaded as such before departure, but here it was.

Following year, brand new 4-BEP. No chicken and chips, but we went along to the buffet car. My mother was expecting, at the very least, a steward, seats, and tablecloths. But it was just a one-man mini buffet, where we not only had to stand, but to use again my mother's expression "We had to SWING round a POLE". Which was regularly repeated in future years. Incidentally, the particular buffet car was the one with prototype air conditioning in unit 7022. It had a wall plate stating so.

 

[yorksrob]

I was 6 in in 1958 and I remember an August Bank Holiday when the family went to Margate on a special that called at Herne Hill. It was a rake of grubby Maunsell and Bulleid coaches hauled by a filthy Bulleid Pacific. I remember seeing track panels stacked on the platform at Bromley South. The following August Bank Holiday in 1959, all change! EPB to Bromley South then brand new CEP/BEP/CEP from there to Margate and back in the evening. When I was tiny we used to go and see aunties in Orpington and sometimes we went in original 1925 type Southern Railway so-called 'SUBs' (that is 3-sets with an extra trailer added). 1960 was similar but, oh dear! in 1961 Mum & Dad got a car. A Ford Anglia 100E. So no more train rides, but I do remember waiting at level crossings in Kent and near Windsor, that year, and both times shiny looking newish HAPs went across.

Yes, I had to negotiate in the 1980's to make my parents leave the Vauxhall Chevette behind once in a while.

Or not ...

We went on family holidays to Ostend in 1961 and 1962. Outwards Victoria to Dover, the first time we had a traditional compartment, it seemed strange and wooden, so I'm guessing something Southern prewar, couple of families, and surprisingly there was hot chicken and chips, in a basket, brought along by the steward. I have no idea whether this was cooked on the train or loaded as such before departure, but here it was.

Following year, brand new 4-BEP. No chicken and chips, but we went along to the buffet car. My mother was expecting, at the very least, a steward, seats, and tablecloths. But it was just a one-man mini buffet, where we not only had to stand, but to use again my mother's expression "We had to SWING round a POLE". Which was regularly repeated in future years. Incidentally, the particular buffet car was the one with prototype air conditioning in unit 7022. It had a wall plate stating so.

Chicken in a basket on the train - you learn something new every day !

An air conditioned BEP carriage sounds like science fiction to me.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

An air conditioned BEP carriage sounds like science fiction to me.

Quoting from the RCTS 'Coaching Stock of BR 1978', p67, '69021 of 7022 is air conditioned'.

 

[30907]

Or not ...

We went on family holidays to Ostend in 1961 and 1962. Outwards Victoria to Dover, the first time we had a traditional compartment, it seemed strange and wooden, so I'm guessing something Southern prewar, couple of families, and surprisingly there was hot chicken and chips, in a basket, brought along by the steward. I have no idea whether this was cooked on the train or loaded as such before departure, but here it was.

Following year, brand new 4-BEP. No chicken and chips, but we went along to the buffet car. My mother was expecting, at the very least, a steward, seats, and tablecloths. But it was just a one-man mini buffet, where we not only had to stand, but to use again my mother's expression "We had to SWING round a POLE". Which was regularly repeated in future years. Incidentally, the particular buffet car was the one with prototype air conditioning in unit 7022. It had a wall plate stating so.

My memory (and the Bachmann model!) says the BEPs had a seating area - possibly at the other end of the vehicle.

My own memory is of disappointment - Bromley S to Westgate in June 59, but it was a 10-Hap formation not corridor stock

(I now know that non-corridor stock to the seaside was nothing new, but by 1958 they had mostly gone on the Southern.)

 

[yorksrob]

My memory (and the Bachmann model!) says the BEPs had a seating area - possibly at the other end of the vehicle.

My own memory is of disappointment - Bromley S to Westgate in June 59, but it was a 10-Hap formation not corridor stock

(I now know that non-corridor stock to the seaside was nothing new, but by 1958 they had mostly gone on the Southern.)

To be fair, the HAP's included a corridor alongside the first class compartments !

I understand that they were the mainstay of the Kent coast stoppers until the VEP's came in (although before my time).

 

[Taunton]

The HAP units were essentially EPB suburban units, no gangways, with a bit of enhancement for first class, plus a toilet. They even got used on lengthy London to Dover/Ramsgate locals. There was some incident in the 1970s with one in the restricted tunnels between Folkestone and Dover, a failure or a minor derailment, which needed a detrainment, which proved almost impossible from the compartments, whereupon they were banned from that section and the Southern stock was switched around, the last VEPs being diverted there. The same applied to the last of the BR-standard 4-EPB units, with the same motor vehicles, and express gearing, which got used to multiple with the HAPs on various Kent workings.

 

[nw1]

I'd have loved to have experienced the CEP's and HAP's when new.

Then again, part of the charm of the HAPs in the 80s was their "old" feel and interior, while that style would have been normal-for-the-era when first introduced.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2024 ==

The HAP units were essentially EPB suburban units, no gangways, with a bit of enhancement for first class, plus a toilet. They even got used on lengthy London to Dover/Ramsgate locals. There was some incident in the 1970s with one in the restricted tunnels between Folkestone and Dover, a failure or a minor derailment, which needed a detrainment, which proved almost impossible from the compartments, whereupon they were banned from that section and the Southern stock was switched around, the last VEPs being diverted there. The same applied to the last of the BR-standard 4-EPB units, with the same motor vehicles, and express gearing, which got used to multiple with the HAPs on various Kent workings.

While they were mostly used on Chatham line stoppers, there were even some instances of HAPs diagrammed for Chatham line fasts. From 1982:

1613 Ramsgate 6HAP Bromley South, Chatham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, then all
1634 Ramsgate 8HAP as above plus Gillingham
1652 Ramsgate 6HAP/4CEP as 1634

In 1981 a majority of the locals to Maidstone West, Gillingham and Faversham were operated by pure-HAP formations (an asymmetric and slightly irregular timetable with 1tph splitting at Swanley) but there were less HAPs off peak in 1982, which also saw a recast to the typical 80s/90s pattern of two fasts and two stoppers, the former overtaking the latter at Faversham, and each alternating between Ramsgate and Dover.

 

[yorksrob]

Then again, part of the charm of the HAPs in the 80s was their "old" feel and interior, while that style would have been normal-for-the-era when first introduced.

There's a point to that. If I'd been born in the 1930's and considered the HAP's to be horrid and modern.

And as far as I was concerned in the 1980/90's, all the sliding door nonsense was rubbish. (Not changed my mind TBH).

 

[Snow1964]

Then again, part of the charm of the HAPs in the 80s was their "old" feel and interior, while that style would have been normal-for-the-era when first introduced.

From memory the seats were grey with some coloured flecks in 1970s and into the 1980s. The 3H DEMUs in Hampshire, I think were the same interiors. Seemed to be from different era to the blue seats and aluminium in the VEPs and TC sets