Southern Region early 60s

[yorksrob]

From memory the seats were grey with some coloured flecks in 1970s and into the 1980s. The 3H DEMUs in Hampshire, I think were the same interiors. Seemed to be from different era to the blue seats and aluminium in the VEPs and TC sets

Trojan moquette, which was quite psychedelic to my mind. The remaining ones eventually got NSE blue blaze.

The "blue" seats were Bournemouth blue - quite attractive but not as good as trojan to my mind.

 

[nw1]

From memory the seats were grey with some coloured flecks in 1970s and into the 1980s. The 3H DEMUs in Hampshire, I think were the same interiors. Seemed to be from different era to the blue seats and aluminium in the VEPs and TC sets

Yes, that was right. The usual stock was CIGs and VEPs, which didn't seem old at the time (and weren't, at 10-15 years old they were newer than the Desiros are currently). The HAPs were diagrammed on occasional services, including one of my trains home if I just missed the fast. Generally they were used a lot in the peak to enable 6- or 10-car trains to run.
The EPBs (which I also got home on one occasion on a CIG/VEP substitution) had the same style of seating.

 

[30907]

To be fair, the HAP's included a corridor alongside the first class compartments !

Yes, they did - but we didn't travel 1st. I did, of course, if they turned up on suburban runs

I understand that they were the mainstay of the Kent coast stoppers until the VEP's came in (although before my time).

Indeed, having succeeded the Hals on the Maidstone/Gillingham semi-fasts (which were then extended to the coast). But an xx10 off Victoria wasn't a stopper, hence my nearly-7-year-old disappointment.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, they did - but we didn't travel 1st. I did, of course, if they turned up on suburban runs

Indeed, having succeeded the Hals on the Maidstone/Gillingham semi-fasts (which were then extended to the coast). But an xx10 off Victoria wasn't a stopper, hence my nearly-7-year-old disappointment.

Well, you'd at least got access to a toilet (provided you'd sat in the correct carriage) :lol

I've heard that the HAL's were quite uncomfortable, but have never travelled on one. Was that your experience ?

 

[WesternLancer]

From memory the seats were grey with some coloured flecks in 1970s and into the 1980s. The 3H DEMUs in Hampshire, I think were the same interiors. Seemed to be from different era to the blue seats and aluminium in the VEPs and TC sets

Sounds like Trojan moquette fabric. As opposed to Bournemouth Blue.

As mentioned up thread I note.

Good samples here

Torrington | Catalogue

Browse our catalogue of fabric and moquette upholstery products.

heritagerailfabric.co.uk

 

[Sun Chariot]

Oops - HAL not HAP. Ignore!

 

[Gloster]

Sounds like Trojan moquette fabric. As opposed to Bournemouth Blue.

As mentioned up thread I note.

Good samples here

Torrington | Catalogue

Browse our catalogue of fabric and moquette upholstery products.

heritagerailfabric.co.uk

Yes, I remember the Trojan from the South Western Division’s 4-EPBs and its DEMUs.

 

[contrex]

When I first started going to school at North Dulwich in 4-SUBs, the newest of them was 12 years old!

 

[yorksrob]

Oops - HAL not HAP. Ignore!

Ah shame ! Would have liked to have heard some first hand experience of the HAL's

Bet they weren't as nice as the HAP's !

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Dec 2024 ==

When I first started going to school at North Dulwich in 4-SUBs, the newest of them was 12 years old!

Went on the preserved one between Brighton and Seaford - I envy your school commute.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Ah shame ! Would have liked to have heard some first hand experience of the HAL's

By the time I saw the last HALs, they were devoid of seating and used as 930 de-icers

 

[yorksrob]

By the time I saw the last HALs, they were devoid of seating and used as 930 de-icers

Oh yes - saw a few SUB's like that

 

[contrex]

Ah shame ! Would have liked to have heard some first hand experience of the HAL's

The SR/Bulleid style HAPs bore the same relationship to the 'Tin HALs' as the SR type EPBs did to the Queen Mary SUBS - EP brakes and different cabs but not a lot different inside. But a higher top speed. Having said that, my favourite way to spend a Saturday in 1964 was to get a Southern Region Rail-Rover. You could choose one of three areas, I usually chose Area 2, and my best memory is of a ride from Redhill to East Croydon in a Tin HAL. I was at one of the doors in the side corridor of the trailing DTC with my head as far out of the window as I dared. It was spitting with rain and we roared along (they were noisy!) at line speed which might have been 75 or so. The old HALs that were built before the war were good too. They stopped the tickets for 1965 so I switched to LT Twin Rovers. I vividly recall Standard Stock on the Northern City Line, already cut back to Drayton Park in connection with the Victoria Line works at Finsbury Park, so that you got in a replacement bus for that part (ancient hired half-cab single decker). What fun. Aged 12. Would parents now let their lads do that? How I miss all that when I go on a train in London these days. The poster below is dated 1961; the tickets were on sale until 1964.

Image by the Science Museum

 

[yorksrob]

The SR/Bulleid style HAPs bore the same relationship to the 'Tin HALs' as the SR type EPBs did to the Queen Mary SUBS - EP brakes and different cabs but not a lot different inside. But a higher top speed. Having said that, my favourite way to spend a Saturday in 1964 was to get a Southern Region Rail-Rover. You could choose one of three areas, I usually chose Area 3, and my best memory is of a ride from Redhill to East Croydon in a Tin HAL. I was at one of the doors in the side corridor of the trailing DTC with my head as far out of the window as I dared. It was spitting with rain and we roared along (they were noisy!) at line speed which might have been 75 or so. The old HALs that were built before ther war were good too. They stopped the tickets for 1965 so I switched to LT Twin Rovers. I vividly recall Standard Stock on the Northern City Line, already cut back to Drayton Park in connection with the Victoria Line works at Finsbury Park, so that you got in a replacement bus for that part (ancient hired half-cab single decker). What fun. Aged 12. Would parents now let their lads do that? How I miss all that when I go on a train in London these days.

Sounds a magnificent day out, although personally my heaven would be doing it all on BR era stock (Bullied SUB's and later).

 

[WesternLancer]

The SR/Bulleid style HAPs bore the same relationship to the 'Tin HALs' as the SR type EPBs did to the Queen Mary SUBS - EP brakes and different cabs but not a lot different inside. But a higher top speed. Having said that, my favourite way to spend a Saturday in 1964 was to get a Southern Region Rail-Rover. You could choose one of three areas, I usually chose Area 3, and my best memory is of a ride from Redhill to East Croydon in a Tin HAL. I was at one of the doors in the side corridor of the trailing DTC with my head as far out of the window as I dared. It was spitting with rain and we roared along (they were noisy!) at line speed which might have been 75 or so. The old HALs that were built before ther war were good too. They stopped the tickets for 1965 so I switched to LT Twin Rovers. I vividly recall Standard Stock on the Northern City Line, already cut back to Drayton Park in connection with the Victoria Line works at Finsbury Park, so that you got in a replacement bus for that part (ancient hired half-cab single decker). What fun. Aged 12. Would parents now let their lads do that? How I miss all that when I go on a train in London these days.

Great exploring potential in those Area zones!

 

[contrex]

Great exploring potential in those Area zones!

Redhill to Guildford behind a kettle more than once. An N Class I think. Had smoke deflectors. Four green coaches and only one a "BR Standard" as the magazines called them in those days.

 

[WesternLancer]

Redhill to Guildford behind a kettle more than once. An N Class I think. Had smoke deflectors. Four green coaches and only one a "BR Standard" as the magazines called them in those days.

Impressive!

 

[Harpo]

Trojan moquette, which was quite psychedelic to my mind. The remaining ones eventually got NSE blue blaze.

The "blue" seats were Bournemouth blue - quite attractive but not as good as trojan to my mind.

My job took me to Eastleigh Works mid-90s when it still had a huge room full of sewing machinists with every inch of wall space taken by shaped ply patterns, each with the unit class and description of that fabric piece written on them ready to be chalked around.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Suspect this was the last 2 HAL coach (excl conversions to di-icers etc) to survive in original condition before being broken. DTCL 12847 of unit 2693 as I photo'd at Selhurst. Someone has kindly removed the doors so what's left of the interior can be partially glimpsed !

 

[Bevan Price]

Redhill to Guildford behind a kettle more than once. An N Class I think. Had smoke deflectors. Four green coaches and only one a "BR Standard" as the magazines called them in those days.

Yes - those Southern Day Rovers were useful for "doing track", as well as riding steam between Redhill & Guidford. Not only the "N" Class, but the very similar "U" Class 2-6-0s (which had larger driving wheels), plus BR Standard locos (75xxx and 80xxx classes) - and GW "Manor" 4-6-0s that worked the Summer Saturday services from the West Midlands to the South Coast between Reading & Redhill.

From what I recall, 2HALs, often coupled to 2BILs worked a lot of the stopping services on the Brighton line, and also worked the "stoppers" between Waterloo & Portsmouth. Although not exactly "luxury", the seats - probably stuffed with something like horse hair - were tolerably comfortable -- and in my opinion, a bit better than most "modern" stock. Also from memory, the HAL & BIL seats were slightly harder than the seats found in 4LAV units (often found on Brighton line semi-fasts) and 4COR units The HALs & BILs were not all identical - some of the later builds (or rebuilds) had a "more modern" front-end design.
.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The HALs & BILs were not all identical - some of the later builds (or rebuilds) had a "more modern" front-end design.

Yes - Big Jumby 74's above post photo is of a "Tin-HAL":

To replace war casualties, collision damaged units and as additional stock, a further seven 2 HAL units were ordered to HO 3230 (five units and final two DTCs) and HO 3232 (two MBTs) and built at the end of 1948 numbered 2693 ‑ 2699. Motorcoach underframes were ordered to No. 4795 (three units) and 4982 (the remaining four) with all seven DTCs to No. 4797.

Nicknamed Tin HALs, these units were to a revised design as coaches were all‑steel construction; similar in appearance to 4 SUB units being built at this time.
The wider coach shoulder profile enabled 6-per-side seating in the MBS compartments. The MBS van space was still that of a 2-HAL, larger than that in a 4-SUB MBS.

A further oddity was set 2700. Tin-HAL DTC 12855 built upon underframe of former 2 BIL DTC 12037 (ex 2014), was paired with 4-SUB MBS 12664 f(rom set 4590). Released Lancing on 21st Feb 1955

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Ah... the Haps... As a kid in the 1970s, I used to bunk the train to London and Haps were the main-stay of many of the stoppers up the Maidstone East line. No gangways meant no guard checking tickets.... : Then for a short time, my parents rented a house where my bedroom window looked out onto the railway and many of the Victoria - Dover Priory stoppers were made up of Haps.

Sadly, I remember taking a few shots on old 110 film compact camera and they have got lost during various house moves. Rubbish photos but at least you could tell they were Haps...

 

[contrex]

When I was 18 I had a job in the Civil Service in London and commuted to & from Herne Hill. At 16 40 or so there was a stopper to kent House composed of HAPs. Great fun to race to Vic to catch it then nip in the bog on board and skin up. People who were 18 in 1970 might know what that means.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ah... the Haps... As a kid in the 1970s, I used to bunk the train to London and Haps were the main-stay of many of the stoppers up the Maidstone East line. No gangways meant no guard checking tickets.... : Then for a short time, my parents rented a house where my bedroom window looked out onto the railway and many of the Victoria - Dover Priory stoppers were made up of Haps.

Sadly, I remember taking a few shots on old 110 film compact camera and they have got lost during various house moves. Rubbish photos but at least you could tell they were Haps...

Those 110 cameras were a curse with the bent of hindsight. I had one and the result is a lot of very grainy photos. I guess they were relatively cheap.

 

[Taunton]

I believe the seven "Tin HALs" 2693-99, which were prewar HAL layout in a postwar SUB-style steel body, were some additional purchase with government compensation funds for wartime damage, and thus were somewhat separately identified for depreciation etc in the accounts. When the Gatwick Airport shuttle started in 1958 I seem to recall it was this little group that were assigned to the service, run on the rear of a Horsham semi-fast, detached at Gatwick so passengers and their luggage could detrain at leisure whilst the main train carried on, and reattached to the front of the next Up working for inward air passengers. The shunter on duty at Gatwick must have been pretty smart in their work.

I did notice that the quite common 8-car formations of 2-BIL units would have one HAL in them, and much later found a document which stated that the majority of the HAL units were treated as a pool with them and not separately diagrammed. However, it was almost always one of the inside units, as if they didn't like driving them. I noticed just the same on the Eastern Division, where again common 8-car HAP formations often had one of the Southern-design units included, again pretty much always in an inside position. It just seemed far too standard to be chance.

The Southern-design HAP units were strangely newer than the first mainstream BR-standard ones. They were on recycled 62' Southern underframes and used the old Southern body jigs at the works to fit these, whereas the BR units, with quite different bodies and cab ends, were on new 64' frames. The same was done with the two designs of 2-car EPB units. All these were 1950s construction for the big Eastern Division EPB changeover, associated with the Kent electrification, where the whole division was uprated to 750V and all the prewar units, which could not handle this, were cleared out from there in a big stock switcharound.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When I was 18 I had a job in the Civil Service in London and commuted to & from Herne Hill. At 16 40 or so there was a stopper to kent House composed of HAPs. Great fun to race to Vic to catch it then nip in the bog on board and skin up. People who were 18 in 1970 might know what that means.

Presumably a single skin in 1970 - not a long journey

 

[contrex]

Presumably a single skin in 1970 - not a long journey

No, the usual three, it was for the walk home through Brockwell Park.