What stock will Scotrail procure to replace HSTs?

[Travelmonkey]

FLRT is the jack of all trades, do a GA and near complete fleet replacement would be my preference. Means the 156s can be put out for retirement and the 158s can he passed to other operators & routes. Although Staddler do have a great product it does not "protect UK jobs" I do hope Alstom kick out the "No diesel" at Litchurch Lane and get something that could work as others have noted they've got a Irish design that can be a inspiration.

 

[kkong]

We're still waiting to see the contract notice for the procurement, which was said on 3rd Sep 2024 "to be published in the coming weeks".

As we are now almost 7 weeks on from the ministerial announcement, perhaps they meant to say "in the coming months" ?

 

[chuff chuff]

If I stay on till the bitter end I've got about nine years till I retire,had thought I would see at least some of this in place. Seriously doubting it now.

 

[reecestrains]

Delay after delay I guess...
Nothing seems to get delivered or finished on time anymore these days.

 

[HamBuoy]

Latest update in today's budget https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-budget-2025-2026/pages/9/

In the coming year, we intend to invest more than £2.6 billion in public transport to provide new ferries, enhance ports and harbours, and commence plans to replace ScotRail’s Intercity fleets, as well as maintain existing bus, lifeline ferry and rail services.

As much as I would like to be proved wrong it doesn't sound like anything is going to happen quickly or soon...

 

[VioletEclipse]

As much as I would like to be proved wrong it doesn't sound like anything is going to happen quickly or soon...

I'm getting increasingly worried that the HSTs might not last long enough to wait until the replacement trains arrive. I can see a timeline where this means significant service cuts for potentially years.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm getting increasingly worried that the HSTs might not last long enough to wait until the replacement trains arrive. I can see a timeline where this means significant service cuts for potentially years.

Surely they can lease some off lease Sprinters cheaply at short notice, if the fleet goes completely kaput?

 

[trainswitheddy]

Surely they can lease some off lease Sprinters cheaply at short notice, if the fleet goes completely kaput?

From who? Iirc the ones at Ely are in a right state.

 

[AlastairFraser]

From who? Iirc the ones at Ely are in a right state.

The 150s that TfW are offloading?

 

[Transilien]

From who? Iirc the ones at Ely are in a right state.

Will the Transport for Wales 158s be coming off lease soon?

 

[trainswitheddy]

Will the Transport for Wales 158s be coming off lease soon?

I'd forgotten about those. Which sprinters need C6 refurbs? Some of them might be of use if not.

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The 150s that TfW are offloading?

As I touched on above, aiui most, if not all the 150s are due C6 refurbs (hence some already going for scrap), would these even be viable as a I7C replacement?

 

[SC318250]

150s would only be useful for local fife services to release 158/170
The 156 released from East Kilbride services could go east if drivers were retrained to allow some 158/170 trades. 156s could probably operate Edinburgh to Perth and Glasgow to Dundee

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

Would be a step back tho

 

[AlastairFraser]

As I touched on above, aiui most, if not all the 150s are due C6 refurbs (hence some already going for scrap), would these even be viable as a I7C replacement?

It's not quite as an I7C replacement, it's more as @SC318250 described. Backfilling to release 170s for temporary use on the I7C service group, until the replacement units arrive. Not perfect, I agree, and some units that don't need a refurb yet may have to be pre-emptively purchased and stored just in case (how much are 150s really worth once they are withdrawn from TfW?).

 

[Russel]

If things get that drastic, then wouldn't the original rumours of 222's be worth looking into?

 

[trainswitheddy]

If things get that drastic, then wouldn't the original rumours of 222's be worth looking into?

this is probably the best bet. Gap used like GCs 221s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

It's not quite as an I7C replacement, it's more as @SC318250 described. Backfilling to release 170s for temporary use on the I7C service group, until the replacement units arrive. Not perfect, I agree, and some units that don't need a refurb yet may have to be pre-emptively purchased and stored just in case (how much are 150s really worth once they are withdrawn from TfW?).

Definitely a good point - just don't think it'd be a great look from those with concerns about fleet age

 

[signed]

If things get that drastic, then wouldn't the original rumours of 222's be worth looking into?

222s should go to XC, not Scotrail

 

[trainswitheddy]

222s should go to XC, not Scotrail

Why? ScotRails HSTs being gone would put passengers in a similar predicament to that of those at XC id of thought.

 

[HSTEd]

Why? ScotRails HSTs being gone would put passengers in a similar predicament to that of those at XC id of thought.

So far HSTs being withdrawn is just a possibility.

The mess at XC is a certainty - XC should have the higher priority.

 

[signed]

Why? ScotRails HSTs being gone would put passengers in a similar predicament to that of those at XC id of thought.

Fleet commonality, and like @HSTEd we are not yet at the point of HST retiring, when that happen, we may have other stock available/off-lease to cover them (like maybe Class 171, converted back to 170s, from Southern, if a replacement is ever sought, though they would probably end up at EMR)

 

[AlastairFraser]

Definitely a good point - just don't think it'd be a great look from those with concerns about fleet age

Hahahaha, well it comes down to money at the end of the day. The 365s were a temporary stay too, so it can be done, it all depends on what they can afford.

Fleet commonality, and like @HSTEd we are not yet at the point of HST retiring, when that happen, we may have other stock available/off-lease to cover them (like maybe Class 171, converted back to 170s, from Southern, if a replacement is ever sought, though they would probably end up at EMR)

 

[trainswitheddy]

Hahahaha, well it comes down to money at the end of the day. The 365s were a temporary stay too, so it can be done, it all depends on what they can afford.

I'd forgotten about that! Shame the 365s couldn't have found a permanent home up north.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'd forgotten about that! Shame the 365s couldn't have found a permanent home up north.

Indeed. A huge failure of our long-term railway planning. In a sane world, they would have found a home replacing Sprinters on the Tyne Valley, Durham Coast and Tees Valley lines, but unfortunately our electrification programme is too slow for that.

 

[HamBuoy]

Latest update in today's budget https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-budget-2025-2026/pages/9/

As much as I would like to be proved wrong it doesn't sound like anything is going to happen quickly or soon...

Something has happened. https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/scotland-to-get-new-intercity-fleet-1/

And now in https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/scotrail-hsts-4-5-years-in.239365/page-30

The contract notice has been published for the replacement fleet -

"Description of the procurement Following the Cabinet Secretary for Transport’s announcement on 3 September 2024 that a replacement is to be sought for the High Speed Train (HST) fleet which operates intercity routes between Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Inverness, ScotRail (SRT) is seeking expressions of interest, and from those who prequalify, tenders for:
1. the supply of a single fleet/class of existing rolling stock to operate its intercity services; and
2. the provision of technical support and spares supply arrangement to enable SRT to maintain the fleet.
The InterCity Replacement Fleet (The Fleet) must demonstrate improved reliability and availability, reduced emissions and operating costs compared to the current HSTs. The Fleet must be capable of operating on existing Network Rail infrastructure on SRT’s intercity corridors with min. changes to achieve a statement of compatibility and safety validation.
The Fleet shall be of sufficient size to operate min. 19 daily passenger diagrams plus sufficient spare trains for maintenance. The average passenger diagram operates approx 220,000 miles p/a. The supplier of the trains will be required to refurbish The Fleet (as needed) before it enters passenger service to provide SRT customers with a reliable and comfortable journey, attractive environment and suitable facilities.
The Fleet will be required to operate in reliable passenger service until at least 2035 and may be required (in whole or in part) until 2040 without further refurbishments. The full Fleet and maintenance support services should enable 19 passenger diagrams to operate from Dec 2027 (backstop date), and SRT reserves the right to exclude fleets which are not expected to be introduced by this date. SRT prefers The Fleet is in reliable passenger service sooner, with the aim from Dec 2026."

Basically looking for a fleet of trains in existence as opposed to something new due to the leadtime involved - maximum in service 3 years from now and also talking about being in service only for approximately a decade.

 

[Cowley]

We’ll close this one now as most of it is being discussed below.

ScotRail HST replacement tender issued - ideas thread

ScotRail have, today, issued the tender for the HST fleet replacement. The tender specifies the replacement is to be of an existing diesel fleet that can be introduced no later than Dec 2027, but preferably Dec 2026. The tender is for enough units to provide 19 diagrams a day, which suggests...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks everyone