UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[Bletchleyite]

EVs still have parts which wear out and are expensive to repair. Motors, suspension and brake components aren't cheap.

The motors will outlast the car unless there's a manufacturing defect, just like a properly maintained internal combustion engine does. Suspension and brake components are pretty cheap in the scheme of car components, and of course all ICEs have them as well, not to mention that regenerative braking on EVs (including hybrids) means there's much less wear on discs and pads than an ICE.

I also suspect no owner of a ten year old Audi e-tron will be happy to pay £3,000 just for the parts for a new wing 'mirror' camera system which has failed.

This is irrelevant to the ICE vs. EV discussion, because ICEs are also fitted with this kind of electronics. It might be a valid argument to owning an older car, but that equally applies to a used Leaf or e-Niro, which despite being EVs are very conventional. The e-Niro even has filament bulbs in the interior lighting!

 

[jon0844]

EVs still have parts which wear out and are expensive to repair. Motors, suspension and brake components aren't cheap. The electronic systems are the in built obsolescence as software development will outpace the hardware.

I also suspect no owner of a ten year old Audi e-tron will be happy to pay £3,000 just for the parts for a new wing 'mirror' camera system which has failed.

Depends on the car, and while you obviously have tyres, suspension, brakes and some fluids, it's still a LOT less than engines, gearboxes and clutches etc. Dedicated EV tyres are pretty much a scam by the industry to sell you more expensive tyres (newsflash; they say themselves that any tyre will work on an EV!) and brake pads will need changing far less often. I don't know about the cooling systems, but expect that's pretty maintenance free.

More fool people who buy cars that have such expensive parts, especially when the industry tries to do everything to stop you repairing your own car or sourcing your own third-party parts (especially if such parts need to be paired with the car).

Increasingly, people are finding that car dealerships are requiring expensive (£100-200) diagnostics to be carried out on a car before they can do a repair, even if you (and they) know the fault already.

I will admit that with EV servicing being needed less often, and far cheaper (like £40-60), you're going to see prices likely rise for parts to compensate. Hopefully the EU, and then the UK, will actively work towards forcing manufacturers to allow car owners to repair their own vehicles and have access to parts - that won't be £3,000 for a wing mirror (if that is an actual price, not just hyperbole).

 

[thejuggler]

Two posts which fail to read what I was responding to. It was a statement quoted that EVs 'last longer'.

EVs are no different to ICE vehicles. They will only last as long as someone is willing to keep spending money on repairs, any vehicle will last for decades, but it needs constant spending to do so, EVs will be no different.

There will come a time in all vehicle's life when the list if repairs required due to a fault or to get it through an MOT (and MoT failures are generally structural, safety, or electrical, not engine or gearbox components as apart from emissions these aren't tested) will far exceed its value and that's when it gets turned into bake bean cans.

It wasn't £3k for the mirror, it is £3k for the camera system which replaced the mirror. Eqully it could be £1500 for a new LED intelligent headlamp unit. The irony is with such expensive components a low speed accident could result in a relatively young EV being written off as uneconomical to repair.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two posts which fail to read what I was responding to. It was a statement quoted that EVs 'last longer'.

You are probably right there. Most cars die of rust. EVs will neither rust quicker nor slower than ICEs, thus they will last the same amount of time.

They will however need fewer costly "wear and tear" things doing along the way. No exhaust, no cambelt etc, no oil, plugs or filters to change (bar the cabin pollen filter), and far fewer brake replacements as regen reduces the use of the discs and pads.

Aside from writing off batteries in an accident, other items are the same for ICEs. Camera based mirrors for instance are not exclusively an EV thing, indeed most of them are installed on ICE vehicles (lorries) at present.

 

[stuu]

You are probably right there. Most cars die of rust. EVs will neither rust quicker nor slower than ICEs, thus they will last the same amount of time.

Is that really true these days? You barely see anything rusty these days, and there's plenty of cars in the 15-20 year old bracket which look fine (underneath may be different of course)

The last two cars which died belonging to people I know both died from other issues (gearbox/head gasket). Which isn't a representative sample admittedly

 

[JamesT]

Is that really true these days? You barely see anything rusty these days, and there's plenty of cars in the 15-20 year old bracket which look fine (underneath may be different of course)

The last two cars which died belonging to people I know both died from other issues (gearbox/head gasket). Which isn't a representative sample admittedly

Underneath is the key. My previous car was 14 years old when I got rid of it in 2019. I think the previous MOT needed about £600 of work to rusty brakes/suspension to get it through, and they flagged up there was a lot more that might need it in future.
I don't have a garage so my car sits outside in all weathers, I don't know how representative that makes it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't have a garage so my car sits outside in all weathers, I don't know how representative that makes it.

Probably very representative. Almost nobody puts cars in garages these days. Mine is just a big concrete shed full of shed-type stuff, and that seems to be the same of all the houses on my road. If I liked gardening I'd probably demolish it and replace with a smaller shed, to be honest, as indeed one of the houses on the row has.

 

[jon0844]

It wasn't £3k for the mirror, it is £3k for the camera system which replaced the mirror. Eqully it could be £1500 for a new LED intelligent headlamp unit. The irony is with such expensive components a low speed accident could result in a relatively young EV being written off as uneconomical to repair.

Luxury cars have had ridiculously priced parts for decades, so this is nothing new. My next car will have front and rear parking sensors and a rear camera for reversing. No 360 degree camera and real door mirrors (albeit heated). So no £3,000 repair bill for me.

The car will have radar for adaptive cruise and other safety systems, but I've had ICE cars with those too. That's a separate discussion issue on right to repair and the ease of getting parts, and allowing third-parties access to your car (and to make parts, or repair/recondition parts).

I bet on this hypothetical £3,000 camera system you talk of, someone with a fairly good knowledge of electronics could repair it instead of replacing it (or, you know, go to a breakers yard and get one) - the same for the LED lighting unit - and if you can't because it needs to be matched to the car, then here's your problem - not whether it's an ICE or battery powered vehicle.

 

[cactustwirly]

Underneath is the key. My previous car was 14 years old when I got rid of it in 2019. I think the previous MOT needed about £600 of work to rusty brakes/suspension to get it through, and they flagged up there was a lot more that might need it in future.
I don't have a garage so my car sits outside in all weathers, I don't know how representative that makes it.

Brakes are consumables anyway and suspension can be easily replaced.

Most cars will look bad underneath, but it's all a superficial layer. Most cars should last 20 years, except if they are kept in salty conditions like the seaside or very cold areas with a lot of salt on the roads

 

[johncrossley]

We already know that trolleybuses have a longer life than diesel buses.

 

[RailWonderer]

Probably very representative. Almost nobody puts cars in garages these days. Mine is just a big concrete shed full of shed-type stuff, and that seems to be the same of all the houses on my road. If I liked gardening I'd probably demolish it and replace with a smaller shed, to be honest, as indeed one of the houses on the row has.

Half of the garages in my street have cars in them.

Most cars will look bad underneath, but it's all a superficial layer. Most cars should last 20 years, except if they are kept in salty conditions like the seaside or very cold areas with a lot of salt on the roads

Yes, and you can also fit undertrays to your vehicle and use a car cover to protect it in harsh weather which also keeps the bodywork in better condition).

The last two cars which died belonging to people I know both died from other issues (gearbox/head gasket). Which isn't a representative sample admittedly

What shortens the car's life is not servicing it as per the manual. At certain ages and mileages there are parts that have to be replaced, not just stuff that flags up on MOTs. A gearbox blowing means you're either unlucky or it hasn't been replaced at the right intervals.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What shortens the car's life is not servicing it as per the manual. At certain ages and mileages there are parts that have to be replaced, not just stuff that flags up on MOTs. A gearbox blowing means you're either unlucky or it hasn't been replaced at the right intervals.

I'm assuming you're meaning the gearbox oil hasn't (there are no service parts inside gearboxes of modern cars). However even replacing gearbox oil is not a thing on cars under about 20 years old other than some high performance models. They are filled at manufacture with the oil designed to last for life.

 

[bahnause]

An old banger often comes with high, unexpected, bills so it's often best to get rid than start throwing money at them. Clearly there are exceptions.

Very true. If your wife insists on getting a new car, keep in mind that keeping the car and changing the wife is even more expensive.

I wonder how the second hand market and concept of keeping a car until it breaks will work with EVs, as they should last far longer. And if they do, how will that impact the sales of new ones?
People are now keeping their mobiles for far longer than they did and it has had a big impact on sales of new sevices.

The same will happen with EVs. Batteries don‘t seem to degrade as much as one might think:

Modern EV batteries can last 20 years, longer than your car itself: Study

Contrary to popular belief, a new study has found that most batteries in electric vehicles can likely outlast the vehicle’s usable life.

The new insights are based on Canadian telematics company Geotab’s recent update to its 2019 analysis on EV battery degradation, which incorporates new fleet data.

Five years ago, Geotab reported that EV batteries degraded at an average rate of 2.3 percent per year, which was considered “surprisingly good” at the time.

“In 2024, we performed a new analysis and the results indicate that EV batteries have improved significantly, degrading at 1.8 percent per year on average,” said the firm in the study.

 

[HSTEd]

1.8% per year is enough that some people will probably want to switch to new vehicles because of reductions in range, but the cars themselves should remain usable for a long time - at least until non battery things kill them.

This bodes well for the future used car market.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Very true. If your wife insists on getting a new car, keep in mind that keeping the car and changing the wife is even more expensive

You're right

Image is of a spoof Christmas card related to the quoted post.

 

[MotCO]

1.8% per year is enough that some people will probably want to switch to new vehicles because of reductions in range, but the cars themselves should remain usable for a long time - at least until non battery things kill them.

This bodes well for the future used car market.

People may want to switch to new EVs as a replacement for their existing EVs if the overall package is an improvement -e.g. longer range, quicker charging, lighter cars (more efficient, less strain on tyres and brakes) etc. As I have said before, EV technology is still, relatively speaking, in its infancy, and there will be a lot of water under the bridge before the technology stabilises and changes become less significant.

 

[Robin Edwards]

People may want to switch to new EVs as a replacement for their existing EVs if the overall package is an improvement -e.g. longer range, quicker charging, lighter cars (more efficient, less strain on tyres and brakes) etc. As I have said before, EV technology is still, relatively speaking, in its infancy, and there will be a lot of water under the bridge before the technology stabilises and changes become less significant.

I'm not sure I can agree here @MotCO . EVs have been around for as long as ICEs but EVs haven't had the amount of corroboration from the oil industry as the latter. Toyota, Honda and General Motors have been producing EVs for over 30 years and the Prius in particular, is one of the more popular and reliable vehicles in the world.
What I would say is that lithium battery technology is still relatively speaking, in it's infancy for mass production and improving costs & efficiency.

 

[MotCO]

I'm not sure I can agree here @MotCO . EVs have been around for as long as ICEs but EVs haven't had the amount of corroboration from the oil industry as the latter. Toyota, Honda and General Motors have been producing EVs for over 30 years and the Prius in particular, is one of the more popular and reliable vehicles in the world.
What I would say is that lithium battery technology is still relatively speaking, in it's infancy for mass production and improving costs & efficiency.

I think we are probably saying the same thing. I would not count Hybrids as EVs - they are, as the name suggests, a bit of this and a bit of that, and the pure EV range is very small. Hybrids will not be allowed after the 2035 deadline (or is it 2030?), and pure EVs will be the only show in town (Hydrogen does not seem to be making much of an impression.)

The motive power of EVs is the battery technology, and that, as we agree, is a long way from being the 'final' product.

 

[GusB]

People may want to switch to new EVs as a replacement for their existing EVs if the overall package is an improvement -e.g. longer range, quicker charging, lighter cars (more efficient, less strain on tyres and brakes) etc. As I have said before, EV technology is still, relatively speaking, in its infancy, and there will be a lot of water under the bridge before the technology stabilises and changes become less significant.

I disagee. The technology is definitely not still in its infancy; it's now mature enough to the extent that EVs are appearing on the roads and are being driven by ordinary people for ordinary daily tasks. Enough people have been convinced that their lives won't be completely disrupted by having one.

I think we are probably saying the same thing. I would not count Hybrids as EVs - they are, as the name suggests, a bit of this and a bit of that, and the pure EV range is very small. Hybrids will not be allowed after the 2035 deadline (or is it 2030?), and pure EVs will be the only show in town (Hydrogen does not seem to be making much of an impression.)

Whether or not a hybrid counts as an EV is debatable; if a car has a pure electric drivetrain that still counts as an EV in my book. If it happens to have a small range-extending engine I don't see that as being a massive problem, provided that the engine is used as little as possible.

The motive power of EVs is the battery technology, and that, as we agree, is a long way from being the 'final' product.

Surely this depends on what you want the "final product" to be. If most EV owners find that the current set up meets their daily needs it's job done. Any further improvements will simply be a bonus. If you're looking for the final product to be an EV that allows you to go from Land's End to John o'Groats on a single charge, and I've no doubt that will happen eventually, having such a vehicle is completely unnecessary for most normal people.

Was there ever a time when the internal combustion engine become the "final product"? No! People improved it to give more power and cleaner emissions, as well as developing more efficient transmissions. Let's not forget that the range of a petrol or diesel motor also depends on the physical capacity of the fuel tank, and not every ICE vehicle is going to have a tank that permits such journeys without refuelling.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The motive power of EVs is the battery technology, and that, as we agree, is a long way from being the 'final' product.

You seem to be saying that, because technology is always improving, this means that the current technology isn't suitable? The number of EVs on the road- including the number of EV buses- suggests this isn't true.

And also why doesn't this logic also apply to the internal combustion engine?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Dec 2024 ==

Let's not forget that the range of a petrol or diesel motor also depends on the physical capacity of the fuel tank, and not every ICE vehicle is going to have a tank that permits such journeys without refuelling.

It is an issue that it takes longer to charge an EV than it does to put fifty litres of fuel into the tank, but it's only an issue because of the infrastructure. The people who say they won't buy an EV because of the charge time are the same people who will still park their car up in a motorway services for 30 minutes whilst they go to the toilet and get a KitKat and a coffee. And they're the same people who will have their car parked up for eight hours every day outside work.

So if you have enough charger sockets in a car park the charge time doesn't matter.

In Wirral they've done a trial with charging points affixed to lamp-posts. Expand that more widely and you've got your solution for people who don't have a driveway.

As for range anxiety, it seems to focus on people running low on charge in rural areas. Here's the thing, that also applies to ICE cars. Where my eldest lives in Cumbria it is about ten miles to the nearest petrol station. So they make sure they don't let the car run too low on fuel.

 

[MotCO]

You seem to be saying that, because technology is always improving, this means that the current technology isn't suitable? The number of EVs on the road- including the number of EV buses- suggests this isn't true.

And also why doesn't this logic also apply to the internal combustion engine?

There must be a reason why the general public are not buying EVs - most are commercial purchases (see my earlier post). Range, recharging facilities and cost are probably the key issues. Improving technology will address all three issues. Buses are possibly unique - they do the same journeys each day, have a charging station back in the depot, and probably only cover 150 miles a day - EV application is therefore entirely appropriate.

ICEs have been around for over 100 years, and the technology back then and now is not comparable - think distributors, electric starting, automatic gearboxes, cruise control etc. Electric vehicles have been around for a long time, but were mostly milk floats etc - it is only in the last 20 -30 years have they advanced, and there is still further to go.

If EVs routinely gave a range of 400 miles, so lack of charges, queues for chargers cost of public charges, range anxiety will no longer be a problem. If costs came down and matched ICEs (not just hybrids), then you will have a saleable, practical product. This is why the technology still needs to be improved.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There must be a reason why the general public are not buying EVs

It's the same reason why people are not buying new ICE vehicles- they cannot afford to. Sales of diesels have dropped 20% year on year according to the most recent statistics.

ICEs have been around for over 100 years, and the technology back then and now is not comparable

I'm not even talking about the last 100 years, I'm talking about the last 20 years. My first car in 2001 was a Peugeot 205 with a 1.6L petrol engine that achieved about 100bhp whilst doing sod all to the gallon. I have two cars now. My 2012 Fiesta ecoboost that achieves 50mpg in urban traffic asnd develops 130bhp off a 995cc engine, and a 2019 Qashqai that develops about 140bhp off a 1.3L engine and does 35-40mpg in urban traffic. The 2024 versions of both cars are even better. The development in ICE technology has been rapid, does that mean the older technology on my 12 year old Fiesta is rubbish? Not at all.

If EVs routinely gave a range of 400 miles, so lack of charges, queues for chargers cost of public charges, range anxiety will no longer be a problem.

Even the most expensive public chargers are still cheaper than petrol and diesel.

Neither of my ICE vehicles offer a range of 400 miles, the fuel tank isn't big enough, even when brimmed. And most people don't brim, they stick £20 a go into an ICE vehicle.

Range is also irrelevant when it comes to regular use. The average car journey is about six miles and this takes into account the small number of longer journeys- about 60% of all car journeys are under five miles. "Range anxiety" is just a thing that oil companies have invented to undermine EVs.

There does need to be more chargers in key hotspots, especially at supermarkets and motorway service stations. I hope to see there's an expansion of the trial of chargers on lamp-posts. But I think there will also eventually be something of an attitude change: at the services you don't spend five minutes filling up then 25 minutes having a wee and a latte, you spend 30 minutes doing all of it in one go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neither of my ICE vehicles offer a range of 400 miles, the fuel tank isn't big enough, even when brimmed. And most people don't brim, they stick £20 a go into an ICE vehicle.

That might be an Isle of Man thing or perhaps just regional generally. I always fill up to the top at the first sensible* opportunity once the needle dips below a quarter. I don't believe I've had the light on in the last 20 years.

I suspect people who are OK with ranges under 200 miles are those who accept running down to the wire. I don't and will continue the policy as "charge at the first sensible opportunity on going below one quarter" when I eventually switch, and would not even consider an EV with a real world range of under 200 miles.

A second-car run around is of course different. If a car never leaves town a range of 50 miles (e.g. a used Leaf) is fine.

* Ridiculous motorway prices not classing as "sensible" of course.

 

[Robin Edwards]

Meanwhile in Norway........... https://www.statista.com/topics/7176/e-mobility-in-norway/

I would still disagree that it's less about the technical advances of EVs (that have been around as long as ICE vehicles) and more about the lack of investment of infrastructure in the UK along with there being few if any incentives given that the UK pays so much for it's electricity, especially if bought remotely for EV charging.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile in Norway........... https://www.statista.com/topics/7176/e-mobility-in-norway/

I would still disagree that it's less about the technical advances of EVs (that have been around as long as ICE vehicles) and more about the lack of investment of infrastructure in the UK along with there being few if any incentives given that the UK pays so much for it's electricity, especially if bought remotely for EV charging.

I wouldn't say EV tech has changed hugely. It's battery tech, which has largely developed because of mobile phones (due to the holy grail of a small battery that charges quickly but offers a full day of heavy use without charging) but scales up nicely.

You could always have a lead acid EV if you wanted, but you wouldn't have a good range or speed. Indeed EVs predate ICE cars.

 

[JamesT]

Even the most expensive public chargers are still cheaper than petrol and diesel.

Nope.

How much does it cost to charge an electric car? - Which?

We reveal the typical charging costs for an electric vehicle and how these compare with hybrid, petrol and diesel cars

www.which.co.uk

Below, we’ve given typical charging costs based on the average efficiency (3.1 miles per kWh) of all the different models and versions of EV we’ve tested, depending on where you charge.

Typical cost per kWh Cost per mile
Home (off-peak/EV rate) 7p 2p
Home (standard rate) 24p 8p
Public ultra-rapid charging 79p 26p
As you can see, the cost per mile dramatically increases when you charge at a public ultra-rapid charger.

For comparison, a typical medium petrol car costs 15p per mile, while for diesel it’s 12p (based on paying 142.28p for petrol and 147.13p for diesel). So when using a public ultra-rapid charger, you’re paying significantly more to refuel.

If you have access to cheap charging and doing enough miles for that to outweigh the higher purchase cost then it stacks up. But for many people ICE is still cheaper.

 

[MotCO]

Range is also irrelevant when it comes to regular use.

There does need to be more chargers in key hotspots, especially at supermarkets and motorway service stations. I hope to see there's an expansion of the trial of chargers on lamp-posts.

If EV battery range increases, you would not need to expand the number of chargers - drivers would not need to top up so often. You would not have 'bank holiday queues' for chargers - the experience would be more akin to ICE when it comes to needing to add resource.

 

[jon0844]

3.1 miles per kWh sounds quite low but I couldn't see what the equivalent average MPG rate was for the petrol or diesel equivalent.

Plus there are numerous schemes that give discounts, with Tesla supercharger sites often down to 25-50p even without membership. Not always at a motorway services but never far from a motorway.

If you had an EV you'd surely look for the better deals just as no fool fills up with petrol or diesel at a petrol station on a motorway, at least not unless someone else is paying (and the same could be said for the EV chargers).

 

[GusB]

As for range anxiety, it seems to focus on people running low on charge in rural areas. Here's the thing, that also applies to ICE cars. Where my eldest lives in Cumbria it is about ten miles to the nearest petrol station. So they make sure they don't let the car run too low on fuel.

Ooh, careful!

I mentioned in an earlier post that I had a 14-mile round trip to fill up my car, whereas there's a public EV charger just down the road; I was told that was a niche case!

That might be an Isle of Man thing or perhaps just regional generally. I always fill up to the top at the first sensible* opportunity once the needle dips below a quarter. I don't believe I've had the light on in the last 20 years.

It's not just an Isle of Man thing. I generally stick £40 of fuel in my tank when I do a main grocery shop and that will usually last me for a few weeks. I don't usually fill the tank unless I'm going on a long journey, although I did the last time because prices had dropped and I took advantage when I had the chance. Similarly, with an EV there's no need to ensure that your battery is full all the time; most people will happily get by with a quick charge here and there.

 

[AM9]

Nope.

How much does it cost to charge an electric car? - Which?

We reveal the typical charging costs for an electric vehicle and how these compare with hybrid, petrol and diesel cars

www.which.co.uk

If you have access to cheap charging and doing enough miles for that to outweigh the higher purchase cost then it stacks up. But for many people ICE is still cheaper.

Why are all the comparisons here based on only purchase cost and marginal costs?
There's also maintenance where there's a huge difference between IC and EV costs. And what about the relative consumption difference between rural, motorway suburban and motorway driving. IC vehicles may give slightly better practical range on the first two, but the slowing/accelerating shorter journeys with colder engines and gear changing certainly worsens their fuel consumption and brake/clutch wear compared to EVs. Much as most drivers would prefer to spend their driving hours cruising along quiet country roads, for the majority of motorists, life certainly isn't anything like that.