UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

[N1]

Is UK tidal power making any progress ? Tidal barrages suffer all the issues of any major infrastructure project. Tidal stream seems stuck at 'proof of concept' installations.

MeyGen in Scotland continues to be the largest tidal stream power station in the world at 6MW. Morlais tidal stream, off Anglesey, began construction in 2022 and is expected to be completed in 2026. It will have a nameplate capacity of 240MW, on par with Rance, making it theoretically joint second for largest tidal power stations in the world.

 

[jon0844]

Isn't there meant to be a large supply of lithium in the south west? I assume we're not mining it as it's cheaper to buy from abroad - but I assume we could be more self sufficient if we wanted to be.

 

[Peter Sarf]

........................

So to follow on from what I said above, if the commitment to become virtually self-sufficient is maintained, by continuously designing, manufacturing and installing sustainable energy generation, we won't need to join a 'future dash'.

I don't want to join a future dash I want to satisfy its hunger by selling to those that do dash !.

 

[HSTEd]

Isn't there meant to be a large supply of lithium in the south west? I assume we're not mining it as it's cheaper to buy from abroad - but I assume we could be more self sufficient if we wanted to be.

There potentially is, especially in geothermal brines.

However supply of lithium carbonate is probably not the primary issue for reliance on china. There are lithium reserves all over the place at the end of the day, and its unlikely China could obtain control of them all.

The real problem is that Chinese companies is now strictly better than western companies at making usable batteries. Given the enormous economies of scale to be had, it will be difficult or impossible to break into this market.

 

[Cowley]

Obviously where the energy is going to come from (and battery resources), but we have been straying a fair bit from the thread title at times over the last day or two.

Gentle nudge time. Thanks everyone

 

[AM9]

Is UK tidal power making any progress ? Tidal barrages suffer all the issues of any major infrastructure project. Tidal stream seems stuck at 'proof of concept' installations.

It will take time, but the UK being an Island, the basic requirement for suitable straits and estuaries is already there.
So far the most promising proposals, (the various Severn schemes) have been bogged down with objections on wildlife environmental grounds. Meanwhile the Orkneys scheme is getting some interest.

 

[notverydeep]

It will take time, but the UK being an Island, the basic requirement for suitable straits and estuaries is already there.
So far the most promising proposals, (the various Severn schemes) have been bogged down with objections on wildlife environmental grounds. Meanwhile the Orkneys scheme is getting some interest.

While there have been environmental concerns, the enormous cost seems to be what sunk the Swansea Tidal Lagoon scheme, which would have had a capacity of 320MW, but cost £1.3 billion. It was apparently turned down for public funding, as poor value for money. From New Civil Engineer: https://www.newcivilengineer.com/la...xt=Plans for the £1.3,DCO) is no longer valid.

Plans for the £1.3bn Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon have been dealt a blow by the Court of Appeal, which has ruled that work on the project did not commence within five years of receiving planning approval and therefore the development consent order (DCO) is no longer valid.
The project, put together by developer Tidal Lagoon (Swansea Bay), was to build the world’s first tidal lagoon power plant. This would span Swansea Bay to form a lagoon between the River Tawe and the River Neath. The structure would have had 16 turbines producing a up to 320MW per day.

 

[jon0844]

So Ford is doing an EV Puma from next year. Still maybe too big for some but absolutely the best EV they've made thus far. Now do the Fiesta EV!

Video link to a sneak peak at the car that was under NDA since October.

 

[JamesT]

So Ford is doing an EV Puma from next year. Still maybe too big for some but absolutely the best EV they've made thus far. Now do the Fiesta EV!

Why would they do a Fiesta EV? They stopped making the Fiesta last year and position the Puma as its replacement.

 

[jon0844]

Why would they do a Fiesta EV? They stopped making the Fiesta last year and position the Puma as its replacement.

Because the Puma is still too big for many people, and if they're using the same platform it's quite easy to make a slightly smaller, lower, car with less features and perhaps even a smaller battery option.

There is huge demand for small cars. The Puma is on the right track for Ford in Europe, having only had crazy big models to choose from before.

Rest assured, Fiesta will return in a few years.

 

[Noddy]

Electrifying.com also have a video linked to below with more details on the battery size (it’s small) and price (it’s ok).

 

[jon0844]

Electrifying.com also have a video linked to below with more details on the battery size (it’s small) and price (it’s ok).

The regular Puma starts around £26000, so £30k seems quite plausible.

It's interesting that Ford showed this at the Capri launch event and made everyone sign an NDA (so you're clearly going to see loads of near identical videos pop up this week). I wonder why they picked today to announce it? Could it be because of the rather negative reporting on Ford of late for, well, not making cars exactly like this?

It's worth noting that in 2008 I bought a new car, so I could add features I wanted, and it cost £32k. According to the inflation calculator, today that works out at £50,990. I am quite stunned that I ever had the money for that, as I'd certainly not pay £51k for anything today. Therefore £30k is actually not as expensive as I think people think, and a basic Focus was around that much too I believe.

All cars are expensive these days, which maybe shows just how ridiculously cheap the entry level Dacia Spring is - as that's not a super basic car by any means (and the Chinese small cars are even better specced up).

 

[Energy]

Electrifying.com also have a video linked to below with more details on the battery size (it’s small) and price (it’s ok).

£30k for a ~240 mi range, slightly dated body but with a large boot.

It's okay, it would be great a few years ago but when you compare it to the Citreon eC3 (£22k, 200mi range) its a lot more expensive for not much more range. It really feels like Ford have been dragging their heels on this one and it should have come out a while ago.

It's interesting that Ford showed this at the Capri launch event and made everyone sign an NDA (so you're clearly going to see loads of near identical videos pop up this week). I wonder why they picked today to announce it? Could it be because of the rather negative reporting on Ford of late for, well, not making cars exactly like this?

It does seem odd, the Capri wasn't well received being a classic name slapped on a VW.

 

[JamesT]

All cars are expensive these days, which maybe shows just how ridiculously cheap the entry level Dacia Spring is - as that's not a super basic car by any means (and the Chinese small cars are even better specced up).

The Spring is a city car, isn’t it? So its £15k starting price is competing with things like the Toyota Aygo starting at £16k.
Just don’t have a crash in the Spring (EuroNCAP 1 star).

 

[Noddy]

The regular Puma starts around £26000, so £30k seems quite plausible.

It's interesting that Ford showed this at the Capri launch event and made everyone sign an NDA (so you're clearly going to see loads of near identical videos pop up this week). I wonder why they picked today to announce it? Could it be because of the rather negative reporting on Ford of late for, well, not making cars exactly like this?

I think the electrifying piece was filmed more recently, given they had details of the price and battery, and it was clearly a fully functioning RHD car as opposed to the Fully Charged piece that had a LHD car with a non-functioning seat and no details on the battery or price. As to why today, it’s officially launched and you can place an order on the Ford website, with an estimated delivery of 14 weeks if you don’t go crazy on the extras! Although anyone sensible will wait for pre-registration deals.

Personally I’m pretty shocked that after all this waiting it’s just a converted ICE car. I’ll be interested to see what the driving reviews are like.

 

[jon0844]

The Spring is a city car, isn’t it? So its £15k starting price is competing with things like the Toyota Aygo starting at £16k.
Just don’t have a crash in the Spring (EuroNCAP 1 star).

It would get a higher rating as Renault/Dacia has added a series of active safety systems that bump up the scores. I have zero idea why they won't do it, as 1 star doesn't sound good even if it was for the model that isn't sold here (and the only shared part on the UK model is the roof I believe).

But yes it's a city car, and the Puma is a B-segment car. The Spring was a best seller in Europe and will likely do very well here - or it bloody well should as everyone who as driven one says it's great (and some even took it on a motorway for a laugh and it performed just fine). The e-C3, Renault 5 and many other cars will bridge the gap from city car to something capable of doing longer runs (albeit with less boot space) and I think sales will rise considerably in 2025 as these cars open up EVs to a totally new audience probably clinging on to 1.2ltr petrol cars today.

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I think the electrifying piece was filmed more recently, given they had details of the price and battery, and it was clearly a fully functioning RHD car as opposed to the Fully Charged piece that had a LHD car with a non-functioning seat and no details on the battery or price. As to why today, it’s officially launched and you can place an order on the Ford website, with an estimated delivery of 14 weeks if you don’t go crazy on the extras! Although anyone sensible will wait for pre-registration deals.

Personally I’m pretty shocked that after all this waiting it’s just a converted ICE car. I’ll be interested to see what the driving reviews are like.

Ah, didn't realise they launched it officially today. Not sure why they kept it so secret (unless I missed leaks) as this is a car they needed to launch a while ago. I'd have been teasing info left, right and centre to try and stop someone buying something else.

Being based on an ICE platform might not be great, but I think it's better than using the VW platform.

 

[johncrossley]

The Spring was a best seller in Europe and will likely do very well here - or it bloody well should as everyone who as driven one says it's great (and some even took it on a motorway for a laugh and it performed just fine).

Which shows that car reviews (that generally slate the Spring) are best ignored.

 

[trebor79]

£30k for a ~240 mi range, slightly dated body but with a large boot.

43kWh battery. Absolutely no chance of 240 mile range. More like 140.
Ford have done it again, overpriced and poorly specced (battery should be at least 50% larger). This won't sell well.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The regular Puma starts around £26000, so £30k seems quite plausible.

All cars are expensive these days, which maybe shows just how ridiculously cheap the entry level Dacia Spring is

I first thought "£30k for an EV Puma? Robbery!" so I checked BoE's inflation calculator.
Lo and behold, my diesel D Segment saloon (new April 2017) equates to £34.9k. I now realise how much prices have gone up. Gulp...

 

[jon0844]

I first thought "£30k for an EV Puma? Robbery!" so I checked BoE's inflation calculator.
Lo and behold, my diesel D Segment saloon (new April 2017) equates to £34.9k. I now realise how much prices have gone up. Gulp...

It's crazy isn't it? Puts some of the anti EV stuff (based on pricing) into perspective. According to the same calculator, the Dacia Spring in 2008 (based on the year I bought my car that I mentioned above) would have sold for £9,410.64.

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43kWh battery. Absolutely no chance of 240 mile range. More like 140.
Ford have done it again, overpriced and poorly specced (battery should be at least 50% larger). This won't sell well.

Car batteries don't underperform by that much these days, and if it is commonly used in a city at 20-30mph then it will quite possibly match or beat the quoted figure. If it has a heat pump, it should do a lot better in the winter too.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's worth noting that in 2008 I bought a new car, so I could add features I wanted, and it cost £32k. According to the inflation calculator, today that works out at £50,990. I am quite stunned that I ever had the money for that, as I'd certainly not pay £51k for anything today. Therefore £30k is actually not as expensive as I think people think, and a basic Focus was around that much too I believe.

Exactly, and that’s a point many many people don’t realise.

I spent £28k on a car just over 20 years ago, which is now the equivalent of £59k. That feels like a lot more money now than £28k did back then.

 

[notverydeep]

Exactly, and that’s a point many many people don’t realise.

I spent £28k on a car just over 20 years ago, which is now the equivalent of £59k. That feels like a lot more money now than £28k did back then.

This phenomenon is often described by economists as “the money illusion“: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_illusion

In economics, money illusion, or price illusion, is a cognitive bias where money is thought of in nominal, rather than real terms. In other words, the face value (nominal value) of money is mistaken for its purchasing power (real value) at a previous point in time.

See also the current price of beer in a London pub!

 

[Sun Chariot]

I spent £28k on a car just over 20 years ago, which is now the equivalent of £59k. That feels like a lot more money now than £28k did back then

I wonder if it's an effect of inflation outpacing wage growth? Certainly in the private sectors I've worked in.
The '"per company" yearly wage uplifts were barely 2 to 2.5%.
Without me "hopping" between companies every 3-4 years, I would have been vastly worse off in real terms as the years went by.

 

[Bald Rick]

This phenomenon is often described by economists as “the money illusion“: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_illusion


See also the current price of beer in a London pub!

Indeed, and it pervades all parts of life! When I started buying CD albums in 1990 they were £10-12 each and I thought nothing of buying 2 or 3 a week as student. That‘s £31-£37 each in today’s money.

There are of course converse arrangements. A first class stamp was 20p in 1989…

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I wonder if it's an effect of inflation outpacing wage growth? Certainly in the private sectors I've worked in.
The '"per company" yearly wage uplifts were barely 2% to 2.5%.
Without "hopping" between companies every 3-4 years, I would have been vastly worse off in real terms as the years went by.

No, it’s that inflation is calculated as an average across many consumer items. Some things rise more than inflation (eg first class stamps, see above!), whilst some things rise lower than inflation (eg consumer electronics). Referring back to inflation can only ever be a very rough comparitor.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Indeed, and it pervades all parts of life! When I started buying CD albums in 1990 they were £10-12 each and I thought nothing of buying 2 or 3 a week as student. That‘s £31-£37 each in today’s money.

There are of course converse arrangements. A first class stamp was 20p in 1989…

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Dec 2024 ==



No, it’s that inflation is calculated as an average across many consumer items. Some things rise more than inflation (eg first class stamps, see above!), whilst some things rise lower than inflation (eg consumer electronics). Referring back to inflation can only ever be a very rough comparitor.

Without veering too far OT...
I'd like to instigate a new inflationary measure: Wifelation

Here's how it works:
"Why do you want a newer car? What's wrong with your current car? Have you seen how much newer cars are?"
"I don't have this particular colour of [dress / handbag / pair of shoes] and it's a bargain at only [far more than I'd  ever pay for said item]."
So - the price goes higher, when it's something she wants...

 

[birchesgreen]

Heh from my experience its usually the wife who wants her bloke to get a newer car while he is pretty happy keeping his old banger.

 

[jon0844]

Heh from my experience its usually the wife who wants her bloke to get a newer car while he is pretty happy keeping his old banger.

An old banger often comes with high, unexpected, bills so it's often best to get rid than start throwing money at them. Clearly there are exceptions.

I wonder how the second hand market and concept of keeping a car until it breaks will work with EVs, as they should last far longer. And if they do, how will that impact the sales of new ones?

People are now keeping their mobiles for far longer than they did and it has had a big impact on sales of new sevices.

 

[Harpers Tate]

43kWh battery. Absolutely no chance of 240 mile range. More like 140.

My Hyundai has 38.3kWh and realistically/actually does do around 200 miles of mixed motorway and ABC road driving in fair conditions. This is based on a 180-mile round trip we actually do fairly often - without an enroute charge.

 

[AM9]

My Hyundai has 38.3kWh and realistically/actually does do around 200 miles of mixed motorway and ABC road driving in fair conditions. This is based on a 180-mile round trip we actually do fairly often - without an enroute charge.

Ssshhh! don't spoil the conspiracy.

 

[thejuggler]

An old banger often comes with high, unexpected, bills so it's often best to get rid than start throwing money at them. Clearly there are exceptions.

I wonder how the second hand market and concept of keeping a car until it breaks will work with EVs, as they should last far longer. And if they do, how will that impact the sales of new ones?

People are now keeping their mobiles for far longer than they did and it has had a big impact on sales of new sevices.

EVs still have parts which wear out and are expensive to repair. Motors, suspension and brake components aren't cheap. The electronic systems are the in built obsolescence as software development will outpace the hardware.

I also suspect no owner of a ten year old Audi e-tron will be happy to pay £3,000 just for the parts for a new wing 'mirror' camera system which has failed.