Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[OneTrackMinded]

If SWR had any interest in increasing service levels they'd have started doing something with off-peak services by now, as Southern and SouthEastern have. Reading weekday evenings, Hounslow loop and Dorking are examples.

SWR has tried on multiple occasions to increase the service level on the Hounslow Loop to 4tph and each time the DfT has blocked it

 

[DMckduck]

SWR has tried on multiple occasions to increase the service level on the Hounslow Loop to 4tph and each time the DfT has blocked it

Probably because the loop is one of the largest revenue black holes in the UK?

That would be my guess why it was cut in the first place.

 

[JonathanH]

Probably because the loop is one of the largest revenue black holes in the UK?

Is there a source for that? Are you referring to subsidy required to operate the service, or the level of ticketless travel?

 

[norbitonflyer]

As I said previously, the 701s will provide an over 20% capacity increase on the suburban network without a single new service being added.

No they won't. They will simply restore the capacity lost by withdrawing the 456s and 707s, and reducing the 458/5s to 458/4s

 

[OneTrackMinded]

No they won't. They will simply restore the capacity lost by withdrawing the 456s and 707s, and reducing the 458/5s to 458/4s

They do provide a 50% capacity increase over a 455, so I’m sure there’s some percentage increase if only marginal. I believe Goldfish probably means current day rather than before the withdrawals

 

[DMckduck]

Is there a source for that? Are you referring to subsidy required to operate the service, or the level of ticketless travel?

Not a barrier in sight between barnes and Hounslow, stops every 2 minutes (3 at most)

I don't have a source but i bet its right up there..

 

[norbitonflyer]

Is there a source for that? Are you referring to subsidy required to operate the service, or the level of ticketless travel?

I don't know what revenue is like, but the Hounslow Loop is one of the few areas where SWT/SWR had any competition - from the Picadilly Line. Hence the increase by SWT from 2tph to 4tph, and the holding down of fares compared to comparable distances elsewhere in SWT land (Isleworth Zone 4, Kingston Zone 6 - both 12 miles from Waterloo)

 

[Goldfish62]

I believe Goldfish probably means current day rather than before the withdrawals

Yes, I did and I'm sure everyone realises that, including @norbitonflyer ... Although even the assumption that the 701s would merely just restore the previous capacity levels is incorrect. A 10-701 still has increased capacity over both 10-458/5 or 455-455-456 and in the latter case there were not nearly enough 456s to ensure that all peak services were 10 coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Dec 2024 ==

I don't know what revenue is like, but the Hounslow Loop is one of the few areas where SWT/SWR had any competition - from the Picadilly Line. Hence the increase by SWT from 2tph to 4tph, and the holding down of fares compared to comparable distances elsewhere in SWT land (Isleworth Zone 4, Kingston Zone 6 - both 12 miles from Waterloo)

Yes, and it was TfL that provided at least initial revenue support for the increase to 4tph.

 

[norbitonflyer]

there were not nearly enough 456s to ensure that all peak services were 10 coaches.

No, it was about half - 24 456s and 91 455s could make 24 10-car and 21 8-car (and one 4-car)

 

[Peter Sarf]

Leases can be extended.

It will be the need for a major exam/service that will stop the lease getting extended on some of the 455s at least.

At the point where SWR have a surplus of 701s somewhere into the agonisingly slow implementation then I hope they find TEMPORARY use on other TOCs for the surplus 701s. We do not want the 701s decaying in sidings for any longer than they have so far. When SWR passenger figures rise enough the temporary loan can cease. At which point some other TOC can find new trains. The passenger numbers will rise above pre Covid levels sooner or later be it due to "recovery" or just plain growth in population. That is unless home working wipes away the current norm of three days per week in the office but the trend is the other way on that.

 

[SWT_USER]

Probably because the loop is one of the largest revenue black holes in the UK?

That would be my guess why it was cut in the first place.

Which begs the question why haven't SWR done anything about it?

 

[Bikeman78]

It will be the need for a major exam/service that will stop the lease getting extended on some of the 455s at least.

I understand that but they won't all drop dead at the stroke of midnight. For a fleet of 80 units, heavy maintenance will be spread over years. There is no way that all of them will be due a C6 in the next 13 months.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I understand that but they won't all drop dead at the stroke of midnight. For a fleet of 80 units, heavy maintenance will be spread over years. There is no way that all of them will be due a C6 in the next 13 months.

I agree so it will depend on how many are close to needing their next big exam at the same time. Each member of the 455 fleet might now have a fairly balanced mileage since the last big exam/overhaul in an endeavour to avoid any having an exam/overhaul already fall due.

Although the 507s and 508s had some examples that lasted longer than class mates. But they were/are getting very tired towards the end.

 

[Craig1122]

Which begs the question why haven't SWR done anything about it?

Some observations:

While all the stations round the loop are ungated the level of travel between those stations is relatively low. Most people will have a gated station at one end of their journey which will dramatically reduce the temptation for casual fare evasion. I suspect the original assertion about it being a black hole is somewhat wide of the mark.
However on train revenue protection is pretty much non existent on the Windsor lines these days so there is a lot of scope for people to short fare should they be so minded, I presume that's an issue of operators not being sufficiently incentivised to collect revenue.

On the wider point of service levels the usage along the line tripled following the previous increase to every 15 minutes (Which bizarrely left Sunday's at one an hour) so there's plenty of potential customers out there especially given the level of development in places like Kew & Brentford.

 

[mansonlo49]

Hello, seen this on RTT today is there anyone know would it be a 701? Thank you

 

[Kite159]

However on train revenue protection is pretty much non existent on the Windsor lines these days so there is a lot of scope for people to short fare should they be so minded, I presume that's an issue of operators not being sufficiently incentivised to collect revenue.

More a case of those routes being run with 'Metro' Guards which don't do revenue.

Easy enough for customers to short fare only to come unstuck when trying to use an eTicket from Clapham/Vauxhall to Waterloo which hasn't had an entry scan.

 

[SWT_USER]

Some observations:

While all the stations round the loop are ungated the level of travel between those stations is relatively low. Most people will have a gated station at one end of their journey which will dramatically reduce the temptation for casual fare evasion. I suspect the original assertion about it being a black hole is somewhat wide of the mark.
However on train revenue protection is pretty much non existent on the Windsor lines these days so there is a lot of scope for people to short fare should they be so minded, I presume that's an issue of operators not being sufficiently incentivised to collect revenue.

On the wider point of service levels the usage along the line tripled following the previous increase to every 15 minutes (Which bizarrely left Sunday's at one an hour) so there's plenty of potential customers out there especially given the level of development in places like Kew & Brentford.

Suspect you are right - but then it isn't a revenue black hole. If it IS a revenue black hole and SWR know about it then they should be doing something about it.

I am very surprised they haven't targeted Kew Bridge on a match day. Anecdotally I am aware of a lot of ticketless travel from the Reading/ Windsor/ Weybridge direction.

Aware we are now off topic so I will stop there!

 

[Craig1122]

Suspect you are right - but then it isn't a revenue black hole. If it IS a revenue black hole and SWR know about it then they should be doing something about it.

I am very surprised they haven't targeted Kew Bridge on a match day. Anecdotally I am aware of a lot of ticketless travel from the Reading/ Windsor/ Weybridge direction.

Aware we are now off topic so I will stop there!

To circle back round to the topic my suspicion is:

There's a fair bit of revenue lost which could be captured with more proactive enforcement (but nowhere near a black hole)
There are plenty more potential users with a more attractive service.

It's clear the 701 fleet is too big for the current timetable and that SWR have no plans to improve services. I think that situation could well change fairly quickly with more proactive management. But I'm heading into the realms of GBR speculation there instead!

 

[Meerkat]

At the point where SWR have a surplus of 701s somewhere into the agonisingly slow implementation then I hope they find TEMPORARY use on other TOCs for the surplus 701s. We do not want the 701s decaying in sidings for any longer than they have so far.

I thought the suggestion was that they would replace some 450s as those go off lease or be batteried up

 

[Elorith]

A fault with the 701?
If so it's really not encouraging is it, the same 4 out each day and any others they try to use break down pretty much straight away
I know 017 was out last week but still wasn't used on any all day diagrams, so hasn't really broken the 036/037/039/043 oligopoly.

Has there been a single class of train that hasn't had reliability issues after initial introduction over the last few years?

 

[Goldfish62]

Has there been a single class of train that hasn't had reliability issues after initial introduction over the last few years?

Indeed not. And as already pointed out a few pages ago the reliability so far is entirely average for a new train, and much better than the still appalling 777s.

 

[800001]

Hello, seen this on RTT today is there anyone know would it be a 701? Thank you

701502

 

[Bikeman78]

On the wider point of service levels the usage along the line tripled following the previous increase to every 15 minutes (Which bizarrely left Sunday's at one an hour) so there's plenty of potential customers out there especially given the level of development in places like Kew & Brentford.

Not really surprising. 15 minutes is more or less turn up and go. Half hourly is poor compared with 12 trains per hour on the Piccadilly line. Having said that, I went up the Hounslow loop mid afternoon on a pair of 450s and it was well and truly rammed by Clapham Junction.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Surbiton peakbuster cancelled again "because of more trains thatn usual needing repiars"

 

[Goldfish62]

Not really surprising. 15 minutes is more or less turn up and go. Half hourly is poor compared with 12 trains per hour on the Piccadilly line. Having said that, I went up the Hounslow loop mid afternoon on a pair of 450s and it was well and truly rammed by Clapham Junction.

The Windsor lines are busy pretty much all day every day, even if not as much as pre-Covid.

 

[michebiche]

Surbiton peakbuster cancelled again "because of more trains thatn usual needing repiars"

Cue waiting for the third train at Earlsfield before squeezing on. I’d invite anyone who thinks there is spare capacity to join me at 8.10am!

 

[lewisf]

Lots of short forms out today too. Saw a few 455s and 458/5s running by themselves

 

[swtrains]

Cue waiting for the third train at Earlsfield before squeezing on. I’d invite anyone who thinks there is spare capacity to join me at 8.10am!

Yup. When the last 2 707s were still running they did a pretty good job of soaking up the majority of Earlsfield in the morning peak.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Lots of short forms out today too. Saw a few 455s and 458/5s running by themselves

Indeed - saw a lone 455 on a Dorking service today. But I got lucky as my train (to Richmond) was a 701

 

[nctd2306]

For those wondering about the short forms, as well as the Desiros being very overworked currently, the 455 situation seems very dire. There are at least 10 units that seem not to have been in service for over 2 weeks now. I know 5703 is at Bournemouth but no idea what's happened to the rest of them (awaiting the wheel lathe possibly following leaf fall season?)

Of course to bring it back to the 701 topic, the situation would be helped if more than just 4/90 trains were actually fit for service...