Do train crews from different TOCs mix with one another in the mess room, or keep themselves to themselves?

[MotCO]

Bus drivers often acknowledge each other when driving, even if working for different companies. Do train drivers wave to each other when passing, even if different companies? If so, why don't they acknowledge each other in mess rooms?

 

[Revilo]

Are there also messroom divisions between different unions, or between union members and non-union people?

 

[12LDA28C]

Bus drivers often acknowledge each other when driving, even if working for different companies. Do train drivers wave to each other when passing, even if different companies? If so, why don't they acknowledge each other in mess rooms?

Yes, most drivers will acknowledge the driver of an oncoming train with a wave or sometimes briefly switching on the cab light if it’s after dark.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2024 ==

Are there also messroom divisions between different unions, or between union members and non-union people?

If a mess room was shared between drivers and guards then clearly the two grades belong to different unions. It’s not always widely known if a driver is in the union or not, especially with newer members of staff.

 

[Class2ldn]

Bus drivers often acknowledge each other when driving, even if working for different companies. Do train drivers wave to each other when passing, even if different companies? If so, why don't they acknowledge each other in mess rooms?

Not in London when I was on the buses, drivers from different depots for the same company didn't even acknowledge you lol.
I remember Victoria being a bit of an odd place, southern one side, southeastern on another and if you sat on the wrong side there was normally someone who'd let you know lol.

 

[chuff chuff]

Bus drivers often acknowledge each other when driving, even if working for different companies. Do train drivers wave to each other when passing, even if different companies? If so, why don't they acknowledge each other in mess rooms?

I think most drivers do,I know I do,LNER XC Caley sleepers and freight and my fellow scotrail all get a wave.The only ones I can remember who persistently didn't wave the old BR high speed driver's,perhaps thought they were a cut above.

 

[muz379]

Are there also messroom divisions between different unions, or between union members and non-union people?

Reps asside tbh nobody really knows for sure who is in what union or in any union anyway . Unless someone has broken industrial action during a dispute union doesn't really come into wether people talk or not .

 

[Discuss223]

Some will, some won't. It all depends on the person individually. Many staff will ignore staff working for other companies, whilst some will actively make an effort to make them feel welcome. It's not only different TOC company employees that encounter snootiness too. Those working for third party resource providers e.g. LNER presentation team members working for OCS are frequently shunned by "in house" staff. The railway industry is actually very territorial and egotistical and has been long known for it. As I said, there are exceptions. I've seen Northern Conductors happily pass LNER staff on their services. I've seen Hull Trains pass them but stress to "walk towards the front" (away from First Class in case they were considering bunking down there). I've heard EMR staff tell off Northern Carlisle Security staff off for not seeking permission to pass on their train. And I've also seen Manchester Airport workers given complimentary catering vouchers on services because of the similarities in industry. In all work places though, cliques form and people definitely develop favourite seats in mess rooms etc. No one will be outright nasty but I wouldn't be surprised if a "hello" goes ignored when entering the room of opposing companies. One has to adapt a thick skin, which comes in useful when dealing with rude passengers too.

 

[Scotrail84]

Bloody law unto themselves,horrible place to go thankfully only had to a couple of times.

It was an absolute nonsense that place. Proper sectarian abuse too.

 

[75A]

Remember we used to get a bit of verbal from "Western' men when they relieved us or we relieved them. They reckoned Southern Men signed for everywhere and when the American spaceship landed on the Moon there was a pair of Southern Men there waiting to relieve them.

 

[Discuss223]

Remember we used to get a bit of verbal from "Western' men when they relieved us or we relieved them. They reckoned Southern Men signed for everywhere and when the American spaceship landed on the Moon there was a pair of Southern Men there waiting to relieve them.

Reminds me of the scene at Sheffield station last year when a usually superior acting EMR CSO got in to a bit of a flap upon realising she couldn't open the ramp cabinet on a Northern 170 and had to call for the assistance of the Northern Senior Conductor. It's what I'd usually call "one-upmanship".

 

[scotraildriver]

It was an absolute nonsense that place. Proper sectarian abuse too.

Me too. Once had an unscheduled break there and made the mistake of sitting in "Dave's" seat. The abuse I got was dreadful, I didn't know anyone and Dave was nowhere to be seen anyway. Bunch of absolute screwballs, never had to go again thankfully.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Where I previously worked on the former Southern Region (2000s-2020s), most separated rooms had (thankfully!) gone from being separate driver and guard rooms to general and quiet rooms. These weren't officially signed as such, but just seemed to become that way (typically the one with a sink/microwave became the main one, and the other became the quiet room). A couple of depots did still have separate driver/guard rooms, but these were more historic and had generally remained so as neither room was particularly big enough to become a 'main' general messroom. However, it wasn't uncommon to see drivers in the 'guards room' and vice versa - was more a case of you poked your head in and went where was quietest if you wanted peace, or where you saw some people you knew if you fancied a natter.

There weren't many places I signed where crew from different TOCs shared rooms, however at times such as engineering works where we might end up taking breaks at another TOC's depot, or where another TOC/FOC would break with us, some people might keep themselves to themselves but I certainly don't recall any issues. In fact, it quite often became an interesting chat comparing employers and T&Cs!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

Bus drivers often acknowledge each other when driving, even if working for different companies. Do train drivers wave to each other when passing, even if different companies? If so, why don't they acknowledge each other in mess rooms?

Everyone gets a wave from me, regardless of what colour train they're driving or uniform they're wearing (and whether they are another driver or a dispatcher on the platform).

 

[Efini92]

Remember we used to get a bit of verbal from "Western' men when they relieved us or we relieved them. They reckoned Southern Men signed for everywhere and when the American spaceship landed on the Moon there was a pair of Southern Men there waiting to relieve them.

I didn’t think southern men strayed that far off their patch?
I could well imagine there was route tickets somewhere from saltley to the moon though

 

[TUC]

When sections of a TOC's geographical area have moved to a different TOC area during franchise changes has that led to crews suddenly changing which part of the room they sit in?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

Why would you fraternise with the enemy? Ever mess room I use is single TOC use (even at locations where more than one TOC has breaks, they have different buildings altogether) and most of them have designated tables for different depots or grades.

Surely different grades sitting separately should be a practice that died out decades ago? I can't think of any other work situation where the job or seniority of a colleague makes a difference to where they sit.

 

[dk1]

Are there also messroom divisions between different unions, or between union members and non-union people?

Not as such but we have a small number of conductors that are not in the union some of which worked during this and the previous dispute. They tend to sit in a separate side room or simply do not come into the messroom at all.

 

[TUC]

Not as such but we have a small number of conductors that are not in the union some of which worked during this and the previous dispute. They tend to sit in a separate side room or simply do not come into the messroom at all.

Cue everyone else shaking their heads in puzzlement yet again at rail culture.

 

[12LDA28C]

Cue everyone else shaking their heads in puzzlement yet again at rail culture.

Really? That’s the only situation where I can completely understand certain members of staff being ostracised. And it’s nothing to do with ‘rail culture’.

 

[dk1]

Cue everyone else shaking their heads in puzzlement yet again at rail culture.

Let them. Hope it doesn’t make them dizzy

 

[TUC]

Really? That’s the only situation where I can completely understand certain members of staff being ostracised. And it’s nothing to do with ‘rail culture’.

I don't even know which of my colleagues are or are not in a union. No issue with whether they are or not. It's more, why would it come up in conversation or even matter in terms of relationships?

 

[12LDA28C]

I don't even know which of my colleagues are or are not in a union. No issue with whether they are or not. It's more, why would it come up in conversation or even matter in terms of relationships?

If you can’t understand why someone going to work on a day when all their colleagues are on strike for better pay or improved Ts & Cs would cause some bad feeling then I don’t really know what to say.

 

[chuff chuff]

I don't even know which of my colleagues are or are not in a union. No issue with whether they are or not. It's more, why would it come up in conversation or even matter in terms of relationships?

Have you ever been involved in a dispute where some of your colleagues come in to work.
Now I don't have a problem if someone doesn't want to join the union daft if you ask me but there you go,but there was a character at another depot who was non union who not only came in to work on his rostered days but also his rest days sometimes doing twelve hours.
This chap was well known for belling drivers away against a red and still they couldn't bring themselves to shop him,me not so sure.

 

[Archvile]

If you can’t understand why someone going to work on a day when all their colleagues are on strike for better pay or improved Ts & Cs would cause some bad feeling then I don’t really know what to say.

Generally yes, but you don't know people's circumstances unless you ask. A union is about standing together shoulder to shoulder, and that also means supporting colleagues who aren't able to take part in strike action for genuine reasons.

I've never witnessed outright nastiness, but I've heard horror stories about people being ostracised for daring to keep the roof over their head and to me, that's the behaviour of a cult, not a union.

On the other hand, if people break a strike because they want the overtime, have at it.

 

[66701GBRF]

Generally yes, but you don't know people's circumstances unless you ask. A union is about standing together shoulder to shoulder, and that also means supporting colleagues who aren't able to take part in strike action for genuine reasons.

I've never witnessed outright nastiness, but I've heard horror stories about people being ostracised for daring to keep the roof over their head and to me, that's the behaviour of a cult, not a union.

On the other hand, if people break a strike because they want the overtime, have at it.

I would agree. If someone is in the union and breaks the strike or comes out the union specifically to avoid strike then I think it's fair enough they are treated with an element of disdain. But if someone is not, and has not, been in the union then I think it is harsh and petty to treat them poorly if they are just coming in on their booked days. It is also not non union members fault that any deal automatically applies to them.

 

[Harpo]

I've never witnessed outright nastiness, but I've heard horror stories about people being ostracised for daring to keep the roof over their head

Likewise. Those who were called ‘62 scabs’ or ‘82 scabs’ were well known amongst drivers and one who became a TCS had a miserable life at work.

Remember we used to get a bit of verbal from "Western' men when they relieved us or we relieved them.

Ebbw men had no issue with learning through to Shotton and doing 12 hours to get there and back. There were some cheery (ahem) ‘waves’ as they passed through Shrewsbury without relief.

Stratford also had some ‘all-England’ men. Getting the foreman to give you a toffee apple and taking the key with you when you ‘got off’ helped…..

 

[43066]

Surely different grades sitting separately should be a practice that died out decades ago? I can't think of any other work situation where the job or seniority of a colleague makes a difference to where they sit.

I can think of non railway examples: a law firm with a partners’ dining room, and a professional services firm where only partners had fixed desks, and where fee earners generally wouldn’t socialise with support staff.

I’d say, based on personal experience, that the railway is more inclusive than other organisations I’ve worked for. There’s a sense of employees standing together, rather than trying to step on each other to get ahead, as often happens in other sectors.

Cue everyone else shaking their heads in puzzlement yet again at rail culture.

Are you once again claiming to speak for “everyone”? The above statement is demonstrably untrue, when the railway is an organisation people are quite literally queuing up to join from other industries. None of those new joiners seem remotely “puzzled”, and I know scores of them!

I don't even know which of my colleagues are or are not in a union. No issue with whether they are or not. It's more, why would it come up in conversation or even matter in terms of relationships?

Which industry are you in? Many industries - including my previous sector - have no unionisation at all, so it’s hardly surprising it wouldn’t come up in conversation. That doesn’t really tell us anything useful.

I've never witnessed outright nastiness, but I've heard horror stories about people being ostracised for daring to keep the roof over their head and to me, that's the behaviour of a cult, not a union.

On the other hand, if people break a strike because they want the overtime, have at it.

The only example I’m aware of, of someone who in the last dispute who raised a few eyebrows, was a TCS/platform staff supervisor who claimed he “couldn’t afford to strike”, yet openly admitted he lived at home with his parents with no responsibilities, and went on four or five holidays per year. On talking to him his stance was actually more because he didn’t like unions and I believe wanted to go into management. Fair to say he wasn’t particularly popular amongst his immediate colleagues, albeit there was no outright nastiness - I believe he’s since left the industry.

It would be a strange choice for anyone who is ideologically opposed to unions to join a heavily unionised industry in the first place. I’d say the majority of new entrants are indifferent, but still end up joining because the benefits are obvious due to the nature of traincrew roles (less so for management, and “back office” functions).

 

[CyrusWuff]

The only example I’m aware of, of someone who in the last dispute who raised a few eyebrows, was a TCS/platform staff supervisor who claimed he “couldn’t afford to strike”, yet openly admitted he lived at home with his parents with no responsibilities, and went on four or five holidays per year.

(In)famously there's a former MP who's quoted in the Telegraph as being "proud of breaking the RMT's strike to keep the trains running." Suspect he wasn't very popular after that!

 

[Ashley Hill]

It’s not unusual for Union reps to cross to management grades. When I joined,our two guards inspectors at the time had both been union reps. One of them was also still very active in the NUR. There have been several others since.

 

[Scotrail84]

Me too. Once had an unscheduled break there and made the mistake of sitting in "Dave's" seat. The abuse I got was dreadful, I didn't know anyone and Dave was nowhere to be seen anyway. Bunch of absolute screwballs, never had to go again thankfully.

Many years ago I was berated with sectarian abuse because I had the audacity to cheer a goal for my team on the tv in the bothy. It was against one of the Glasgow teams. It wasn't even lighthearted banter, it was full on pure hatred. I basically told them to STFU but I had to leave the bothy because I felt a sore face was incoming. Thing is back then reporting it would have made zero difference as everyone was in on it as thats the way it was and you'd basically be told to shut up and take it because you're not based here.

The toilet vandalism was horrible as well. Scabs named and shamed on toilet walls, sectarian scribblings aimed at both catholics and protestants. Excrement was even smeared on cubicles at times. Notices had to go up to warn culprits that handwriting experts would be brought in and if they were caught they would face gross misconduct charges. I have not been in there for a long time but I doubt this sort of thing still goes on to the extent that it did 20 years ago. Different world now thankfully.

 

[godfreycomplex]

(In)famously there's a former MP who's quoted in the Telegraph as being "proud of breaking the RMT's strike to keep the trains running." Suspect he wasn't very popular after that!

He wasn’t very popular before that either…

 

[TUC]

Which industry are you in? Many industries - including my previous sector - have no unionisation at all, so it’s hardly surprising it wouldn’t come up in conversation. That doesn’t really tell us anything useful.

I've worked for local authorities and the NHS, both of which have large numbers of union members, but the subject has rarely, if ever, come up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2024 ==

Christian Wolmar, in his British Rail book, cities separate mess rooms/dining facilities for different grades of staff at BR HQ as something that was done away with by the early 1990s.