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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

TEW

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701017 allocated to enter service this morning on 2J92, 0752 Surbiton to London Waterloo.

Only 4 units in service though with the first part of the extra diagram starting today cancelled, 701036 picks it up from 2U21, the 0933 from London Waterloo after working the Shepperton diagram.
 
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Invincible

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I wonder when this two year period (for all 75 trains to be in service) starts from :
  • January 2024;
  • September 2024;
or some other unspecified (potentially future) date? :rolleyes:
Presumably for training to meet this 2 year target, there will be a lot of overtime offered? (and some cancelled trains where no staff is available?).
 

Goldfish62

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Presumably for training to meet this 2 year target, there will be a lot of overtime offered? (and some cancelled trains where no staff is available?).
Like every other new trains introduction, surely? No reason for SWR to be any different (apart from the inevitability of them making a mess of it).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I wonder when this two year period (for all 75 trains to be in service) starts from :
  • January 2024;
  • September 2024;
or some other unspecified (potentially future) date? :rolleyes:
Well it's obviously not a future date.

Taking it at face value it's from January 2024, although leaves room for ambiguity for it to be the September 2024 date. However, given the rate of introduction so far I'd have thought 20 years, not 2, is more realistic. :lol:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Unable to find it after quite a bit of searching
There doesn't actually seem to be any way of searching and viewing actual requests and responses, or if there is it looks like it's made (deliberately?) as difficult as possible.
 
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NSEWonderer

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701017 allocated to enter service this morning on 2J92, 0752 Surbiton to London Waterloo.

Only 4 units in service though with the first part of the extra diagram starting today cancelled, 701036 picks it up from 2U21, the 0933 from London Waterloo after working the Shepperton diagram.
Seen it whizzing by me. Having been around the windor all day it felt like several Arterios were out which was nice. 701025 I assume was still testing but 701043 and I believe 37 and 17 were about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

701034 doing some testing. Just outside clapham junction. Passed units 701036 and 701028 at Waterloo not long ago.
 
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norbitonflyer

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Been stopped at three different level crossings today in SW London. All three trains were 701s!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Five different 701s out today -
701017 on 2J92 etc and 2U45 etc
701036 on 2H90 etc and 2U18 etc
701037 on 2U09 etc
701039 on 2H93 etc
701043 on 2U07 etc
 
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Stephen42

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Is the new diagram running today
Parts of it did. Ran 10 out of passenger 15 services, I'm including the Windsor - Staines service at the end as 1 of the 15. First three cancelled due to train crew and one return trip in the evening due to a train crew rostering problem (TI).
 

norbitonflyer

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Seems that 701017 was due to run the morning Windsor diagram (2U07) this morning but the first run was cancelled "due to a problem with the crew". No morning Shepperton diagram this morning for the same reason
 
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SWT_USER

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There probably is enough trained but not enough available.
It amounts to the same thing though as far as passengers are concerned. If SWR can't reliably deliver the service yet they need to scale back the rollout and get more people trained. Frustrating as that is for all involved a train is better than no train.
 

Peter Sarf

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Again I ask the question, why introduce new diagrams when there aren’t enough trained to operate them 9/10 times
Possibly a two edged sword here.
If the staff who are trained do not get enough opportunity to crew 701s then their competency will lapse. So the chance has to be taken to use them.
If no services (701 or otherwise) are cancelled then there will be no spare staff to lavish on the training courses !.

What we can be sure of is that there is bound to be no surplus of staff for training especially as the colds/flu ramp up about now !.

The transition from one stock type to another will be messy when the staff competent to operate a 701 are not in the right place to take over a 701. I get the impression that staff do not stay with their train all day. The trains are obviously worked harder than the staff (meals and other breaks) so it must be a challenge planning to have the right scarce resource in the right place at the right time - this must lead to some cancellations being because control cannot risk having a 701 stranded somewhere for want of the correctly trained staff. So instead have to cancel at a more convenient location (siding).

I am sure there are those on here who know this better than myself and can probably explain it better.
 

Elorith

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The trains are obviously worked harder than the staff (meals and other breaks) so it must be a challenge planning to have the right scarce resource in the right place at the right time - this must lead to some cancellations being because control cannot risk having a 701 stranded somewhere for want of the correctly trained staff. So instead have to cancel at a more convenient location (siding).
Precisely, yes. No driver to bring a set on/off a depot might result in reactive cancellations, even if there are train crew to work those services themselves.
 

norbitonflyer

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Seems that 701017 was due to run the morning Windsor diagram (2U07) this morning but the first run was cancelled "due to a problem with the crew". No morning Shepperton diagram this morning for the same reason
Evening Windsor diagram is cancelled. 701017 on the evening Shepperton
 

Casper Pesky

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Possibly a two edged sword here.
If the staff who are trained do not get enough opportunity to crew 701s then their competency will lapse. So the chance has to be taken to use them.
If no services (701 or otherwise) are cancelled then there will be no spare staff to lavish on the training courses !.

What we can be sure of is that there is bound to be no surplus of staff for training especially as the colds/flu ramp up about now !.

The transition from one stock type to another will be messy when the staff competent to operate a 701 are not in the right place to take over a 701. I get the impression that staff do not stay with their train all day. The trains are obviously worked harder than the staff (meals and other breaks) so it must be a challenge planning to have the right scarce resource in the right place at the right time - this must lead to some cancellations being because control cannot risk having a 701 stranded somewhere for want of the correctly trained staff. So instead have to cancel at a more convenient location (siding).

I am sure there are those on here who know this better than myself and can probably explain it better.
Although these statements are all rational, it does make me wonder how Greater Anglia, not known for the brightest of management (but lovely staff), achieved the change to 745/720 operation without any of this disaster.
It does seem that the issues over cab design have become small beer compared to simple inability to do the jobs that SWR management are highly paid for.
My instinct is that class 90 to 745 is a bigger learning curve that 444/450 etc. to 701.
I will get shot down for this, but I can't remember BR ever changing types of traction with such incompetence.
 

Goldfish62

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Although these statements are all rational, it does make me wonder how Greater Anglia, not known for the brightest of management (but lovely staff), achieved the change to 745/720 operation without any of this disaster.
It does seem that the issues over cab design have become small beer compared to simple inability to do the jobs that SWR management are highly paid for.
My instinct is that class 90 to 745 is a bigger learning curve that 444/450 etc. to 701.
I will get shot down for this, but I can't remember BR ever changing types of traction with such incompetence.
Look at GWR. They were introducing new 800/802 and 387s, plus training existing staff on relocated Turbos, 158s and newly shortened HSTs all at the same time in 2017/18 and seemed to manage OK.

I agree that so far the 701 training does look on the face of it just to be the latest in a long list of examples of SWR's chronic inability to manage change. The consistency of failure is extraordinary.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Although these statements are all rational, it does make me wonder how Greater Anglia, not known for the brightest of management (but lovely staff), achieved the change to 745/720 operation without any of this disaster.
Thats rather condescending as they managed to roll out the 720's without fuss and push themselves to the top of the leader board over train performance and reliability.
 

Peter Sarf

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Although these statements are all rational, it does make me wonder how Greater Anglia, not known for the brightest of management (but lovely staff), achieved the change to 745/720 operation without any of this disaster.
It does seem that the issues over cab design have become small beer compared to simple inability to do the jobs that SWR management are highly paid for.
My instinct is that class 90 to 745 is a bigger learning curve that 444/450 etc. to 701.
I will get shot down for this, but I can't remember BR ever changing types of traction with such incompetence.
I am not sure but perhaps Greater Anglia had a less stretched workforce. It is stunning how much overtime the likes of TPE and Avanti were relying on. But also GA were pragmatic. The only variation aiui to their order was to change the ten car 720s to five car 720s to match the 89 five car 720s they had already ordered. Also the timing of Covid might have left GA with spare staff to train on 720s.
Look at GWR. They were introducing new 800/802 and 387s, plus training existing staff on relocated Turbos, 158s and newly shortened HSTs all at the same time in 2017/18 and seemed to manage OK.

I agree that so far the 701 training does look on the face of it just to be the latest in a long list of examples of SWR's chronic inability to manage change. The consistency of failure is extraordinary.
SWRs introduction of 701s is stunning in its tortuous navigation of stagger from problem after problem. It makes every other introduction of new stock look so wonderful !. It is unbelievable really how awful its been - do we blame SWR, Bombardier, the unions or Covid - I think its a combination. Did I forget to mention DfT.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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SWRs introduction of 701s is stunning in its tortuous navigation of stagger from problem after problem. It makes every other introduction of new stock look so wonderful !. It is unbelievable really how awful its been - do we blame SWR, Bombardier, the unions or Covid - I think its a combination. Did I forget to mention DfT.
Its worthy of Transport Select Committee investigation to expose where the shortcomings have been to avoid a reoccurrence but everyone from the Dft to the manufacture are quite happy to sweep it under the carpet whilst the taxpayer picks up the bill and the passengers suffer.
 

swtrains

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Nogoohwell

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Change costs money and we know who controls that at SWR.
DfT wanted (would only sanction the cost of) a 8 day course and months were wasted before they relented and approved a 10 day course.
Everything from driver recruitment to platform alterations to millage accumulation are all costs that have to be approved by people that have only a few years experience in running railways.

Lets get back to the intentions of the 701 purchase, to add more trains, more coaches, improve customer comfort and increase frequency.

Would have been interesting in a parallel universe without Covid to see how the roll out would have gone and if Bombardier could actually build a working product, bit we’ll never know
 

Snow1964

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Very little training was possible in the early stages of COVID because social distancing rules meant you clould not have two people in the cab.
Although not relevant (and shouldn't be used as excuse) for last 3 years.

Don't forget third of fleet was supposed to be in service when covid hit, and as its normal to do training before introduction, I would guess about half staff should have been trained, so should now only need a short refresher course. Of course we know that it didn't happen.

Also Rock Rail registered a charge against the simulators in 2020 so they have been available for 4 years.
 

DMckduck

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4 further stations have temporarily failed DCO lighting requirements.

Believed to be - Datchet, Wraysbury, Feltham and Richmond
 

norbitonflyer

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Simplified - now only citing the number of days in service, as several units have worked split or partial diagrams

Totals, first and most recent outings (2024 dates in italic)

701039 (109) January 10th, January 9th
701037 (108) January 9th, January 9th
701043 (108) January 16th, January 9th
701036 (89) March 7th, January 9th
701017 (26) November 25th, January 9th
701031 (22) October 28th, January 9th
701028 (3) February 6th, February 9th

(total 465)

Last upodated 9 January 2025 - new thread here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/701-operation.279842/
 
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