Diversion routes that merit schedules passenger service

[SamCam]

A recent discussion of Glasgow-Leeds services via the Settle and Carlisle happened to coincide with engineering diversions of LNER services via Carlisle and back across to Newcastle. While obviously much slower for Edinburgh-London, it struck me that for passengers wanting an Inter-City standard service from, say, Carlisle to Doncaster etc., such a route would be oddly convenient

So, which other regular diversion routes used during engineering work would merit regular passenger services? I'll start with ECML diversions via Cambridge, to remove the need for changing via the odious XC service to Peterborough.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A recent discussion of Glasgow-Leeds services via the Settle and Carlisle happened to coincide with engineering diversions of LNER services via Carlisle and back across to Newcastle. While obviously much slower for Edinburgh-London, it struck me that for passengers wanting an Inter-City standard service from, say, Carlisle to Doncaster etc., such a route would be oddly convenient

Depending on the service & connection times, it definitely could be. But are you suggesting there should be regular Doncaster - Carlisle services?

So, which other regular diversion routes used during engineering work would merit regular passenger services? I'll start with ECML diversions via Cambridge, to remove the need for changing via the odious XC service to Peterborough.

Again, do you mean there should be regular Kings X - Cambridge - Peterboro - Somewhere services?

That is never going to happen on today's railway, not even if the very real capacty pinch point of Ely were to be solved.

As for a genuinely realistic suggestion to match your thesis, I'll give you the Swansea District line, which could most definitely be utilised more for Carmarthen - Cardiff - and beyond services bypassing the extra distance and reversals at Swansea.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A half hourly Stockport-Manchester Victoria service via Denton with a couple of new stations would be useful. Not likely to be feasible before HS2 2B (or whatever it's called now), but after it would be well worth considering.

 

[SamCam]

Depending on the service & connection times, it definitely could be. But are you suggesting there should be regular Doncaster - Carlisle services?

Just something along that corridor, not necessarily that exact route. It would obviously make more sense for the northern end point to be Glasgow than Edinburgh, so this example wouldn't strictly be based on the diverted route in question.

Again, do you mean there should be regular Kings X - Cambridge - Peterboro - Somewhere services?

That is never going to happen on today's railway, not even if the very real capacity pinch point of Ely were to be solved.

Yes I realise this is firmly in the hypothetical category, but it would be an interesting experiment to have one or two Kings X - Edinburgh or Leeds services per day going via Cambridge, no?

 

[JonathanH]

Yes I realise this is firmly in the hypothetical category, but it would be an interesting experiment to have one or two Kings X - Edinburgh or Leeds services per day going via Cambridge, no?

There would be no real purpose in them going south of Cambridge. Passengers travelling from London to destinations north of Peterborough wouldn't want the detour.

The cancellation of the eastern leg of HS2 does mean that capacity on the ECML needs to remain dedicated to fast services to Leeds and Newcastle rather than offering direct services to places in East Anglia, for example, which currently need a connection.

 

[Magdalia]

So, which other regular diversion routes used during engineering work would merit regular passenger services? I'll start with ECML diversions via Cambridge

Diversion via Cambridge adds an hour to the journey time. That makes the service much less attractive for journeys to/from London, and also has huge implications for utilisation of rolling stock and train crew. That's why it is only done when there is engineering work on the usual route.

If Cambridge was on the ECML, there might have been a case for stopping some trains, but there's no case for adding an hour to the journey time in order to do that.

to remove the need for changing via the odious XC service to Peterborough.

There are other more effective ways of improving the Cambridge-Peterborough service.

 

[faltskog36abba]

A half hourly Stockport-Manchester Victoria service via Denton with a couple of new stations would be useful. Not likely to be feasible before HS2 2B (or whatever it's called now), but after it would be well worth considering.

Good shout!.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Manchester Victoria/Glasgow /Edinburgh - Could be Split with the Airports.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

A half hourly Stockport-Manchester Victoria service via Denton with a couple of new stations would be useful. Not likely to be feasible before HS2 2B (or whatever it's called now), but after it would be well worth considering.

Why do we have to wait for HS2 before the poor people of Denton can get an increased train service?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

A recent discussion of Glasgow-Leeds services via the Settle and Carlisle happened to coincide with engineering diversions of LNER services via Carlisle and back across to Newcastle. While obviously much slower for Edinburgh-London, it struck me that for passengers wanting an Inter-City standard service from, say, Carlisle to Doncaster etc., such a route would be oddly convenient

So, which other regular diversion routes used during engineering work would merit regular passenger services? I'll start with ECML diversions via Cambridge, to remove the need for changing via the odious XC service to Peterborough.

London to Norwich via Cambridge seems sensible.

 

[JonathanH]

London to Norwich via Cambridge seems sensible.

In what form? As a non stop from Kings Cross to Cambridge allow direct trains to Breckland stations?

 

[Magdalia]

London to Norwich via Cambridge seems sensible.

In steam and portion working days most of the fast trains from/to Liverpool Street via Cambridge had Norwich and Kings Lynn portions. On weekdays that ended with diesel traction but there were two Liverpool Street-Norwich trains via Cambridge in each direction on Sundays until the 1980s.

In May 1983, for one year, the 0836 and 1236 from Liverpool Street, and corresponding back workings, went to/from Norwich, but reverted to Kings Lynn a year later. That suggests that it wasn't a success.

The Breckland stations are near to the A11, the best road out of Norfolk, and much more direct than the railway. I suspect that reviving Norwich via Cambridge trains now would just shift a bit of traffic from Downham Market and Diss to the Breckland stations, without generating much that was new.

 

[dk1]

In what form? As a non stop from Kings Cross to Cambridge allow direct trains to Breckland stations?

The plan is that both fast Kings Cross to Ely trains will go to Kings Lynn once Ely North Jcn gets re-doubled. Lack of electrification will always be a bane for any extension towards Norwich unless some sort of battery operation can be used. I doubt anymore bimodal diesel options would be sought.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

London to Norwich via Cambridge seems sensible.

Unfortunately there is no appetite for this. It was often hoped after the 2004 Ipswich tunnel blockade that as Norwich drivers where trained on the WAML for two through loco-hauled services each day that some sort of long term extension might happen using these again or 170s during GEML engineering works or disruption. Sadly nothing was taken forward and all route knowledge expired.

It has to be remembered that the WAML is very intensively used now compared to the days when some Norwich & Yarmouth services operated this way.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2024 ==

Diversion via Cambridge adds an hour to the journey time. That makes the service much less attractive for journeys to/from London, and also has huge implications for utilisation of rolling stock and train crew. That's why it is only done when there is engineering work on the usual route.

If Cambridge was on the ECML, there might have been a case for stopping some trains, but there's no case for adding an hour to the journey time in order to do that.

There are other more effective ways of improving the Cambridge-Peterborough service.

Totally agree with this. It’s quite a torturous and busy divesionary route and the reason it’s only used as a last resort.

 

[A S Leib]

Wakefield Kirkgate to York counts as a route where this has recently happened, I think; how busy are the services east of Wakefield?

 

[duffield]

The mostly freight line from Sheet Stores (Trent junctions) to Stenson Junction would allow an hourly fast Nottingham to Birmingham service, bypassing Derby and its reversal, and taking less than an hour compared to about 1hr15 for the current services. A third hourly service from Nottingham to Birmingham has been seriously suggested in recent years, possibly terminating at Birmingham Moor Street.

Bypassing Derby, the most significant stop on the route, might seem a bizarre idea but as an *additional* service I believe it would actually benefit passengers to/from Derby by reducing the load on the existing via Nottingham to Birmingham via Derby services, and by freeing capacity on those in turn reduce pressure on the long distance (North East to South West) Cross Country services between Derby and Birmingham.

That's in addition to the obvious benefit to end-to-end Nottingham to Birmingham passengers; also, if those end to end passengers were not enough to fill the new services even in the peaks, they could call at Burton and/or Tamworth, which have considerable local traffic to Birmingham which often causes severe overcrowding at present.

The route itself is well suited to passenger use, it was used intensively as such during the recent Derby rebuild blockade.

So ... all we need is an hourly path each way, a free platform at both ends, a few extra class 170s, and a handful of drivers and conductors!

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Newport when XC services divert to and from South West and Scotland via Birmingham and Cheltenham.

 

[Farigiraf]

1. London King's Cross to Leeds via Cambridge ( Connections at Peterborough are good enough for Newcastle/Edinburgh, but the Cambridge to North market currently consists of a single 2 car slow 158)
2. London St Pancras to Leeds via Barnsley (did they ever go via Huddersfield?) - Two large towns with suboptimal connections to the capital
3. London King's Cross to Doncaster/York via Lincoln (would alternate with the 2 hourly service that calls at Retford), with calls at Spalding, Sleaford (?) and Gainsborough Lea Road
4. Highland Sleeper extension from Aberdeen to Elgin or Nairn (ECS to Inverness)

 

[brad465]

GWR's "Great way round" has recently seen Plymouth/Penzance trains go this way due to engineering work on the B&H. Normally there is only 1 train a day that does this and a few peak extensions of Bristol services to/from Taunton on weekdays (Sundays have a few extras too). I think extending more of the Bristol Temple Meads/Weston-super-Mare terminators down to Taunton/Exeter could improve connectivity along the Bristol-Exeter corridor, which most of the day has only 2tph (1x XC fast, 1x GWR stopping) running between the two.

 

[Magdalia]

London King's Cross to Leeds via Cambridge

I remind you that the diversion via Cambridge adds an hour to the journey time to/from London, and therefore also requires more rolling stock and more train crew.

the Cambridge to North market currently consists of a single 2 car slow 158)

That's only available from Ely. Cambridge has a 3 car class 170 to Birmingham.

Cambridge doesn't need through services to northern cities: there are lots of options, all quite similar, how do choose which cities get direct trains and which not?

What Cambridge needs (amongst other things) is more capacity on the trains to Peterborough, and decent connections at Peterborough to all of the midland and northern cities. Diverting ECML trains via Cambridge is not the way to achieve that.

 

[Farigiraf]

That's only available from Ely.

Which is most of the time either a 5 minute or 55 minute transfer. Connections greatly vary.

Cambridge has a 3 car class 170 to Birmingham.

Changing at Leicester for Sheffield or Nuneaton (and Stafford/Crewe) for Manchester is in practice quite complicated, despite being the cheapest route most of the time.

What Cambridge needs (amongst other things) is more capacity on the trains to Peterborough, and decent connections at Peterborough to all of the midland and northern cities.

Strongly agree - however, if we're in a magical land where intercity services over the S&C are viable, then it wouldn't hurt to have more direct services. No improvements on the Ely corridor can happen until an upgrade (I'm sorry that almost my every post on this topic has to bring it up, but come on, make it happen already!), so the next best things to improve access to the North would be:
A - Improved connections and services at Nuneaton, including more Avanti calls. This can move the majority of transfers needed at Birmingham New Street to somewhere simpler
B - More services between Leicester or Peterborough and Nottingham - I think an OAO London-Nottingham via Grantham has been proposed before, and to get back on the thread's topic, some CrossCountry main route services routed via Leicester instead of Tamworth is also an option (once XC fixes its capacity problem that is)
B - Lower fares for via London journeys which are currently much higher than via Ely

 

[70014IronDuke]

Yes I realise this is firmly in the hypothetical category, but it would be an interesting experiment to have one or two Kings X - Edinburgh or Leeds services per day going via Cambridge, no?

I'm sorry to say I'd suggest it is more fantasy than hypothetical.

Up to the 60s, I think there were one or two ECML trains (from Newcastle, perhaps) which left at Peterboro and headed eastwards, perhaps to Colchester? And on summer weekends, I think to Yarmouth-Lowestoft. (@Magdalia will know better.) Plus, of course, you had the various iterations of the Harwich Boat train.

But that was in the day of limited services for much of the day and a philosophy of best serving the passenger with a direct service or through carriages, where possible. Today, with fixed formations and what, three or even four northbound services per hour from Peterboro' (?), it is never going to happen. And, as others have pointed out, it adds an hour (a massive disincentive, plus extra crewing costs) and extra mileage (again, extra costs) from London.

The mostly freight line from Sheet Stores (Trent junctions) to Stenson Junction would allow an hourly fast Nottingham to Birmingham service, bypassing Derby and its reversal, and taking less than an hour compared to about 1hr15 for the current services. A third hourly service from Nottingham to Birmingham has been seriously suggested in recent years, possibly terminating at Birmingham Moor Street.

Funnily enough, I have wondered about some such service for some time, independent of this thread. How close does the line go to Melbourne? Could it justify a station? I guess not, as the main flow from Melbourne would be to Derby.

 

[Magdalia]

Up to the 60s, I think there were one or two ECML trains (from Newcastle, perhaps) which left at Peterboro and headed eastwards, perhaps to Colchester? And on summer weekends, I think to Yarmouth-Lowestoft. (@Magdalia will know better.) Plus, of course, you had the various iterations of the Harwich Boat train.

There was an overnight Colchester-Glasgow and vice versa that ran via Peterborough. These were primarily for service personnel, Colchester being what in those days was called a garrison town.

But until 1973 the main route for through trains between East Anglia and the North was the GN/GE Joint Line from March to Doncaster or Sheffield via Lincoln.

The North Country Continental boat train was the premier East Anglian cross country working running from Harwich to Liverpool before being cut back to Manchester in the early 1960s. This ran via Woodhead until it closed to passengers in 1970.

Next in importance was the Yarmouth/Lowestoft to York and vice versa. This ran through to/from Newcastle on summer Saturdays.

There was a daytime Colchester-Newcastle in summer only. In the winter this was a Lincoln-Newcastle with connections from/to the boat train. At busy times there was also a Cambridge-Manchester or similar relief running just in front of the boat train.

The most important East Anglian cross country train not going via the Joint Line was the Yarmouth-Birmingham and back, which ran via Rugby until that route closed in 1966.

Lots of cross country trains through Peterborough only became feasible in 1973 after the ECML fast lines and the platform 4/5 island were constructed. From 1973 the boat train went via Peterborough, and the Norwich-Birmingham service evolved into 5 trains a day in each direction, with connections at Peterborough, Leicester and Nuneaton. At the same time all of the loco hauled services on the Joint Line were replaced by DMUs, apart from the summer Saturday trains to/from Yarmouth.

In that period, which was when I was first taking an interest in the railway, the only long distance trains from/to Cambridge were DMUs to Birmingham and Doncaster. I can't recall Cambridge ever having through trains to Leeds or Newcastle. The way to get from Cambridge to Leeds or Newcastle has always been to change at Peterborough, until 1966 sometimes involving a long walk between East and North stations.

 

[The exile]

Why do we have to wait for HS2 before the poor people of Denton can get an increased train service?

Capacity at Stockport?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2024 ==

Changing at Leicester for Sheffield or Nuneaton (and Stafford/Crewe) for Manchester is in practice quite complicated, despite being the cheapest route most of the time.

Chances are one of the reasons it’s the cheapest is because not many use it…

 

[duffield]

I'm sorry to say I'd suggest it is more fantasy than hypothetical.

Up to the 60s, I think there were one or two ECML trains (from Newcastle, perhaps) which left at Peterboro and headed eastwards, perhaps to Colchester? And on summer weekends, I think to Yarmouth-Lowestoft. (@Magdalia will know better.) Plus, of course, you had the various iterations of the Harwich Boat train.

But that was in the day of limited services for much of the day and a philosophy of best serving the passenger with a direct service or through carriages, where possible. Today, with fixed formations and what, three or even four northbound services per hour from Peterboro' (?), it is never going to happen. And, as others have pointed out, it adds an hour (a massive disincentive, plus extra crewing costs) and extra mileage (again, extra costs) from London.



Funnily enough, I have wondered about some such service for some time, independent of this thread. How close does the line go to Melbourne? Could it justify a station? I guess not, as the main flow from Melbourne would be to Derby.

The Sheet Stores to Stenson line passes about 1.5 miles away from Melbourne to the north, and the closest point for a station would be somewhere like Barrow-upon-Trent, about three miles away, but as you say it wouldn't be very helpful, not going to Derby.

Of course Melbourne did have its own station on a route via Sinfin to the current line at Peartree and then on to Derby; it closed to passengers in 1930, but survived until 1980 for freight. It's now a footpath ("The Cloud Trail").

 

[IanXC]

Interestingly on the Cambridge question, I'm sure there was an iteration of the classic ECML service, post HS2 coming to Leeds, which had 1tph Leeds - Kings Cross, and 1tph Leeds to Cambridge. That would seem to suggest that an objective study of potential passenger flows identifies that as being worthwhile.

 

[JonathanH]

Interestingly on the Cambridge question, I'm sure there was an iteration of the classic ECML service, post HS2 coming to Leeds, which had 1tph Leeds - Kings Cross, and 1tph Leeds to Cambridge. That would seem to suggest that an objective study of potential passenger flows identifies that as being worthwhile.

Yes, page 17 of https://assets.publishing.service.g...s2-released-capacity-study-summary-report.pdf

The two approaches to improving connectivity (examined in Scenarios 1 and 2) could be combined: adding in longer distance connectivity to London for places off the main line with additional connections along the main line). Another approach examined (Scenario 3) looked at better cross-country services. While only 3% of the Cross-Country’s current passenger flows would be served directly by HS2 in future (reflecting the rich variety of short and longer distance flows handled by this franchise), HS2 Phase 2b creates opportunities to develop new cross country services making use of the East and West Coast Main Lines and the Midland Main Line. These could include services such as Leeds – Cambridge (which conveniently leave scope to increase separately commuter capacity south of Peterborough – as in Scenario 4).

Not sure it was in the assumed service patterns in the later documents though - for example not mentioned in here https://assets.publishing.service.g...097/PFMv9_Assumptions_Report_Revision1_1_.pdf
The assumed post HS2 service pattern (released capacity on page 42) there effectively diverted one Leeds train each hour to Hull, and added an additional Doncaster to Leeds semi-fast service.

 

[rocrat]

In what form? As a non stop from Kings Cross to Cambridge allow direct trains to Breckland stations?

I don't think this would achieve much. The only real competition is Diss vs Thetford currently, and shifting passengers from the GEML to the ECML probably isn't helpful!

What WOULD be helpful is more thoughtful timetabling of when the EMR (and to an extent, GA) services get to ELY or PBO. It is rare that the connection times up perfectly, and whilst I like a trip to Tesco/Waitrose, it isn't very time efficient!

Having weekend EMR trains run as 4 coaches and serving more stations NRW-ELY would be great for increasing capacity.

Most of those from WMD/ATL could benefit from more frequent via NRW, and more passengers overall would benefit from via PBO routeings too.

LNER bringing back open returns via PBO (or the fare setter being made EMR) would be helpful for encouraging more travel via this route too...

 

[nr758123]

A half hourly Stockport-Manchester Victoria service via Denton with a couple of new stations would be useful. Not likely to be feasible before HS2 2B (or whatever it's called now), but after it would be well worth considering.

I struggle to see what useful purpose would be served by a half hourly service to an industrial area a long way from Denton town centre.

 

[Pigeon]

The Droitwich-Worcester loop off the B&G, sometimes used these days as a diversion if that bit of the B&G is blocked, ought to see a regular service. Like the Midland used to do.

 

[Egg Centric]

It's obviously not justifiable in the wider context (and I'm not even sure if possible at all without a reversal) but a Newcastle - York - Euston service (stopping at Durham, Sheffield, Nottingham and Watford) would be very helpful for me and at least 3 others.

 

[A S Leib]

It's obviously not justifiable in the wider context (and I'm not even sure if possible at all without a reversal) but a Newcastle - York - Euston service (stopping at Durham, Sheffield, Nottingham and Watford) would be very helpful for me and at least 3 others.

Newcastle – Durham – York – Sheffield – Manchester Piccadilly then down the WCML via Newton-le-Willows doesn't reverse but would probably cause more delays than a lot of routes which would.

 

[70014IronDuke]

B - More services between Leicester or Peterborough and Nottingham - I think an OAO London-Nottingham via Grantham has been proposed before, and to get back on the thread's topic, some CrossCountry main route services routed via Leicester instead of Tamworth is also an option (once XC fixes its capacity problem that is)

I presume you mean more services twixt Peterboro and Leicester or Nottingham.

There are currently 3 TPH between Leicester and Nottingham, counting the Ivanhoe services. But in any case, these lines are OT - they already have regular services.

One possibility not suggested so far is the Erewash Valley directly to Trent. I don't think it could support a regular hourly Sheffield - St Pancras service in any way (neither from demand, nor because of capacity south or Bedford, nor would any demand from Alfreton match that from Derby), but I wonder if one flagship service - The Master Cutler? - could go that way, as, indeed, it did in the 70s.

There was also talk about a Mansfield - Derby service via Pye Bridge (I think) some year ago. I don't know if this was mere RailUK musings or anything more serious. I suspect capacity at Trent Jcn would be a block to any such ideas, even if a business case could be built up.