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Southeastern Court Summons

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walker75

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Advice please.
My son (19) has been issued with a court summons for end of month.
The offence is: over distance avoidance.
One time offence. July 2024.
Forgot to buy a ticket going into StP from Canterbury going to apprenticeship job. Realised walking to barriers, quickly bought one from Stratford. Was stopped. Owned up immediately to guard. Has apologised via email, saying it was a stupid mistake. He had exams happening around that time. Can prove via Trainline, always buys full journeys usually.
Expected a fine.
Received summons today.
What is the best way to approach this, ideally to get it settled out of court.
A conviction would mean losing his apprenticeship and impact his future.
A silly one time mistake which he immediately admitted to as an error.
 
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Gloster

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Please post the letter and any other correspondance that he has received in this thread. Please obscure his name, address and any other identifying details, such as reference numbers.
 

walker75

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Here is the summons. Do you need to see witness statement? He admits it straight away.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Other than the initial letter to which he emailed, confirmed everything. Screen shots of Trainline to show first time. Explained he panicked at barrier when he had no ticket. Admitted mistake.
Straight to prosecution.
What would you suggest as the two email he sent owning up to mistake. They can see he hasn’t done it before or since haven’t made any difference.
He would if purchased a full ticket there and then if asked to, or paid on spot fine.
 

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Elecman

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You sure there was no previous correspondence since he was caught as it’s very unusual for a train company to go straight to prosecution . If there was and he didn’t respond to it as requested then the Train company will assume that he didn’t want to cooperate with them and hence why they gave nor taken him to court.
 

walker75

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Should we try tospeak to someone on Monday? To ask for out of court settlement? Or should we just find a solicitor. If the hearing goes ahead, he will be found guilty. That’s his job gone and future impacted.
Over one stupid mistake of hitting Stratford and not Chartham on the app
 

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walker75

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He received two emails confirming receipt of information he sent through.
He Also screen shot all his Trainline journeys, explained the stupid oversight. Followed up last month with an email explaining it’s causing worry.
But straight to summons.
 

WesternLancer

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Is this another case of SE trains losing the earlier replies sent by the son? Sadly we have seen a batch of those recently.

Can tho op give details of where previous replies were sent eg the e mail or postal address and ideally the content of those replies?
 

walker75

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SE letter received on 9 Aug.
All correspondence via email. Have tried to share screen shot but held with admin.
Son responded same day confirming - personal details and explaining what had happened.
Automatic Confirmation email received.
Later that day Son sent on Trainline screenshots.
SE Confirmation received on 12th with email explaining will access travel history.
Son responded on 12th - apologising again.
13th SE responded saying contact him when concluded findings.
Summons received today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also - his intention was not to avoid, it was an error, but appreciate they don’t care!
 
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WesternLancer

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SE letter received on 9 Aug.
All correspondence via email. Have tried to share screen shot but held with admin.
Son responded same day confirming - personal details and explaining what had happened.
Automatic Confirmation email received.
Later that day Son sent on Trainline screenshots.
SE Confirmation received on 12th with email explaining will access travel history.
Son responded on 12th - apologising again.
13th SE responded saying contact him when concluded findings.
Summons received today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Also - his intention was not to avoid, it was an error, but appreciate they don’t care!
This is out of character for them. Do you have a phone number. It may be worth your son calling them on Monday to see if they have received/ considered his responses.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Forgot to buy a ticket going into StP from Canterbury going to apprenticeship job. Realised walking to barriers, quickly bought one from Stratford
It's important to recognise that your son is in the wrong: he didn't have a ticket for the journey that he made, so ultimately Southeastern have the right to prosecute and I would expect them to win.

However....
Is this another case of SE trains losing the earlier replies sent by the son? Sadly we have seen a batch of those recently.
I think this may well be the problem, so
Do you have a phone number. It may be worth your son calling them on Monday to see if they have received/ considered his responses.
This is good advice. But given that your son is the one in the wrong, it's important that the tone of your contact is right: the railway have the law on their side so can choose to carry on down the prosecution route: your son will need to politely enquire whether his previous replies were seen, and whether it would be possible to settle out of court.
 

walker75

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His emails to them were very apologetic and understanding and that he would not do it again.
Early train to new job in London, fell asleep, etc panic buy on app. Immediately told inspector. He even said to him you will probably get a fine.
Sent all Trainline history in to show it was a genuine stupid mistake.
He’s such a good, genuine kid that I’m gutted for him.
His job is in finance, so he will probably lose it if he gets convicted.
He’s very worried.
He will try calling Monday to see if there is a possibility of out of court settlement.
 

John R

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His emails to them were very apologetic and understanding and that he would not do it again.
Early train to new job in London, fell asleep, etc panic buy on app. Immediately told inspector. He even said to him you will probably get a fine.
Sent all Trainline history in to show it was a genuine stupid mistake.
He’s such a good, genuine kid that I’m gutted for him.
His job is in finance, so he will probably lose it if he gets convicted.
He’s very worried.
He will try calling Monday to see if there is a possibility of out of court settlement.
Problem is that boarding a train without a valid ticket is an offence, even if purchased within the first few minutes on an app. And unfortunately that was compounded by buying the classic "short farer's ticket" from Stratford to St Pancras.

If your son is still travelling then he must absolutely not board a train until he has bought the ticket on his app (or, if old school, using the ticketing facilities at the station). He cannot afford to be stopped again, and when e-tickets are checked they will know if it was bought after the train departed.
 

some bloke

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Southeastern says he admitted trying to avoid the correct fare.

So before he contacts the company at all, I advise that he either shows all the correspondence to and from him to a solicitor, or posts it with identfying details obscured on here.

While the right person at Southeastern may not have received what your son sent, it may be that they are treating his case more seriously if they think he is failing to admit what he admitted at the start.

If he is not going to consult a solicitor at this stage, please:

1) Post on here all the correspondence to and from him, redacted.

2) Say what he remembers telling staff at the time, especially anything of possible relevance to Southeastern's claim that he admitted trying to avoid the right fare.

3) Say what he proposes to reply if they point to that alleged confession, or anything he may want to say in light of their claim that he made that confession.

Also,

4) Does he now have a duty, because of his employment contract and/or a professional regulator, to disclose the charge?

It's a good idea to ask Southeastern (after doing the above and getting advice) whether they received the earlier correspondence.

Southeastern may be confused about more than one thing.


The wrong charge

The offence is: over distance avoidance.
He isn't guilty of that offence. He didn't travel beyond a distance for which a ticket of his was valid - he didn't have a ticket to start with.

Southeastern seems to have accused him of the wrong crime.

However, they could ask the court to substitute an allegation of another offence.

The error might make a settlement more likely.

But given their claim about a confession, it needs careful handling.

The paperwork claims that he admitted trying to avoid a fare, and you are saying he didn't.

Forgot to buy a ticket going into StP from Canterbury going to apprenticeship job. Realised walking to barriers, quickly bought one from Stratford
Before he communicates next time, even to check they received the earlier correspondence, it's important to be clear what he did and said at the time.

You're saying he made one error, but your story indicates two - forgetting to buy a ticket, then buying the wrong one. You can't really blame them for suspicion of dishonesty, especially after he bought a ticket from the most obvious station fo someone to pick if they wanted to avoid the right fare.

And then there's the claim that he admitted dishonesty.

He would if purchased a full ticket there and then if asked to,
That wouldn't be a good line of defence against a charge (which they might ask the court to substitute) of travelling with intent to avoid a fare, or a lesser byelaw charge of entering a train in order to travel, without having first bought a valid ticket.

If at any point he intended only to pay from Stratford (even while walking to the barrier), then he's guilty of travelling with intent to avoid the right fare.

If the hearing goes ahead, he will be found guilty. That’s his job gone and future impacted.
It's important not to engage in catastrophic thinking - important not to think there would be severe consequences without good evidence of that.

At the same time it's important to recognise risks, and weigh those when deciding whether to hire a solicitor at any stage.

Over one stupid mistake of hitting Stratford and not Chartham on the app
his intention was not to avoid, it was an error, but appreciate they don’t care!
As above, you are describing two errors; and they are claiming he admitted the situation was not due to error.
 
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John R

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Also - his intention was not to avoid, it was an error, but appreciate they don’t care!
But it wasn't. You don't go

hitting Stratford and not Chartham on the app

by mistake.

Think about it from the point of view of a cynical investigator who has heard every excuse under the sun. Your son:-

- forgot to buy a ticket before boarding
-conveniently fell asleep for the whole journey
-bought the cheapest fare he could when approaching the barriers at St Pancras

and still you and he are claiming on here that it was an accident.

We haven't (I don't believe) seen your son's email, but if there is anything in there that maintains that it was all an accident then it will not be believed and they will think that he is not telling the truth. And so it is much more likely that they will proceed to a prosecution.

So if you want to have any chance of getting a settlement, I recommend that any future correspondence apologises for travelling without a valid ticket, and for buying the wrong ticket when approaching the barrier, and doesn't try to dress it all up as an accident. They just won't believe him.
 

walker75

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Thank you for everyone’s advice.
He sent an email Saturday, using one of the templates found on this forum.
He followed up with an email Monday and a call, to check email had been received. It is the payment line, so they can’t tell you anything.
Then Tuesday (yesterday) email received offering out of court settlement-£150 fine and the fare evaded.
All paid and confirmation received.

Thank you to everyone who gave advice. It was a very worrying time.
The consequences of this one time stupid mistake could of been disastrous.
 

Gloster

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Just to make clear. The £150 is probably the railway’s investigation costs, not a fine; £150 is the normal starting point for these costs.

Do remember that he is now on their system. If he should be stopped for any infraction, they will look a lot harder at it and be less inclined to leniency; they won’t automatically consider him guilty, but it is best avoided and he should always make sure that he has the correct ticket before boarding.
 

MotCO

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If your son has any ticketing questions, or is unclear whether a ticket is valid, get him to post his question on the Fares Advice and Policy sub forum.
 
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