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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

Harpers Tate

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What do you think

I think:
1) I have been exclusively electric since 2017. For 3 of those years, the car I had (and still do) was the subject of a safety recall due to increased risk of battery fire. It didn't and still hasn't. It now has a new - supposedly safer - battery.

2) I don't know the relative statistics of ICE vs EV fires. Nor how to quantify the "size" of the issue in dealing with the consequences of one. Until I do, then things like that video are meaningless. Using totally invented numbers to illustrate: IF an EV is 10x less likely to catch fire than an ICE, and IF an EV fire has total consequences (inc. fire dept time and effort) 5x that of an ICE, then we are ahead by a factor of 2. Real numbers will generate a real comparison.

2) Of course what we should all be doing is continuing to extract fossil fuels from the ground and burning them with no thought about any consequences. Heck - the bigger and thirstier it is, the better. As long as it makes a deep throaty roar in use. Who cares about flash floods in Spain. Oh, wait. No, I don't think this at all.
 
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Silent

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I think if you have had ev’s since 2017 of cause you wouldn’t think of fire risk as much. Although I have been in ev buses and taxis my lack of experience with them on a big level makes me wary when I hear a lot of stories of ev fires.

Also the tyres, especially in ev’s due to being heavier usually, are bad for the environment.
 
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renegademaster

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Are bigger fuel tanks / bigger engines more likely to catch fire in cars with engines?
They burn for longer but the limiting factor is the amount of oxygen that can get to it. Lithium battery doesn't need oxygen to short circuit and heat up quickly
 

jon0844

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They burn for longer but the limiting factor is the amount of oxygen that can get to it. Lithium battery doesn't need oxygen to short circuit and heat up quickly

It's tough because most batteries won't experience thermal runaway unless there's a major fault or damage, and you will get more than 4 seconds warning before it goes up (going by the video thumbnail as I didn't watch the video).

I have two phones, a power bank, smart watch and earbuds with two batteries for each ear and a battery in the charging case. I don't expect any of them to catch fire and certainly don't worry about it. I don't see why I'd worry about a car either.

I don't even worry about my petrol car.
 

Krokodil

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Also the tyres, especially in ev’s due to being heavier usually, are bad for the environment.
Not much more. Not enough to outweigh the combination of tyres+exhaust from an ICE car. If you really cared about particulates you probably wouldn't be getting a car at all, you certainly wouldn't be considering an ICE one.
 

jon0844

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It's funny how tyre particles are suddenly a thing. Nobody seemed bothered by heavy ICE SUVs, as I can't recall the outrage when they became popular.
 

Bald Rick

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What do you think


As Baldrick says, I think thinking is very important.

A bigger fire is always worse than a small fire.

One of my best friends has pulled people out of burning road vehicles multiple times (he’s a fireman). Some of the people survived. He’s never had to deal with a burning EV, although, obviously there’s many times fewer of them. He has an EV himself. Two in fact.

To be frank, I trust a career fireman on this.
 

Krokodil

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It's funny how tyre particles are suddenly a thing. Nobody seemed bothered by heavy ICE SUVs, as I can't recall the outrage when they became popular.
I think that we should be more bothered than we are. And I've got both ICEVs and BEVs in my crosshairs here.

in London alone, 2.6 million vehicles emit around nine thousand tonnes of tyre wear particles annually.
Do we really need 2.6 million vehicles in London?
 

renegademaster

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2.6 million vehicles in London
Those 2.6 million vehicle owners think they do. If people are going to get their cars taken away/priced out of reach using the excuse of tyre particulates their really needs to be an attempt to quantify how harmful they actually are
 

Krokodil

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Those 2.6 million vehicle owners think they do.
I've a feeling that for the owners of the luxury cars (Porsches, Range Rovers, Teslas etc.) which were a significant proportion last time I bothered to count cars in Soho it's more a question of "want" rather than "need". One of the problems with living in society is that people can't have unmitigated freedom to do whatever they like without regard for others.

Sure, there are work vehicles too but I've a feeling that light electric vans with a low top speed would be adequate for most delivery work within the city instead of heavy Transits which are capable of motorway speeds - think the sort of aluminium vehicles used in Zermatt which weigh less than an ICE SUV. Plenty of other societal benefits to reducing the amount of street space dedicated to motor vehicles too.
 

Silent

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Not much more. Not enough to outweigh the combination of tyres+exhaust from an ICE car. If you really cared about particulates you probably wouldn't be getting a car at all, you certainly wouldn't be considering an ICE one.
True, but we are surrounded by them I guess so it's kind of out of our control to an extent.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Those 2.6 million vehicle owners think they do. If people are going to get their cars taken away/priced out of reach using the excuse of tyre particulates their really needs to be an attempt to quantify how harmful they actually are
Tbh even plastic bottles are said that they can be harmful because of microplastics which also come from tyres.
 

MotCO

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I think that we should be more bothered than we are. And I've got both ICEVs and BEVs in my crosshairs here.


Do we really need 2.6 million vehicles in London?
How many of them are delivery vans, buses, taxis, minicabs, emergency services vehicles, doctors, shift staff, delivery lorries (eg stocking shops and supermarkets), plumbers and builders vans etc etc which are essential. (Ever seen a plumber on a bike?). It would be useful to know how many were private cars, not used for the purposes outlined above. I would guess at around 750,000, which is less than 1 in 10 of the population.
 

trebor79

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Frankly, nobody will want an ICE car by 2030, let alone 2045.
I don't want one now or ever again in the future!
Yeah I have to wait till solid state and less flammable batteries come out. I know it’s media fuelled fear but seeing that ev fires happen and are worse than ice fires puts me off considering getting an ev. There are much less ev’s than ice cars in the road so fire stats seem a bit skewed to say ice cars are more likely to catch fire.
Nope. EVs are something like 800 times less likely to catch fire, at that's accounting for the differenct numbers on the road. Kinda makes sense when you realise they are carrying 50l of flammable fuel around!
I think if you have had ev’s since 2017 of cause you wouldn’t think of fire risk as much. Although I have been in ev buses and taxis my lack of experience with them on a big level makes me wary when I hear a lot of stories of ev fires.

Also the tyres, especially in ev’s due to being heavier usually, are bad for the environment.
Nope. The tyres actually last longer on EVs. Weight doesn't really cause tyre wear (and the weight thing is largely mythical too). What causes tyre wear is jerky acceleration from changing gears, heavy braking and going round corners too quickly.
EVs have very smooth ascertain and braking.
I bought my Tesla second hand sat 25,000 miles. I replaced the rear tyres at about 50,000 miles. It's now at 68,000 miles and I can get to replace the front tyres. I believe they are the original factory fitted tyres. No ice vehicle tyres have ever lasted that long for me.

Suggest you stop listening to the fud and go have some test drives.
 
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Krokodil

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How many of them are delivery vans, buses, taxis, minicabs, emergency services vehicles, doctors, shift staff, delivery lorries (eg stocking shops and supermarkets), plumbers and builders vans etc etc which are essential.
Most of those tasks can more efficiently be accomplished using smaller, lighter vehicles. Dropping a Streetview pin on a random area in Zone 2 brought up a street filled with parked cars, only one van (belonging to the electricity company) in shot. You mention doctors, perhaps more would take up cycling to work if it were safer:

(Ever seen a plumber on a bike?)
Yes, there are quite a few around these days, particularly in London.

It would be useful to know how many were private cars
Is there still a loophole that allows people to dodge the congestion charge by registering their car as a minicab?
 

Harpers Tate

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Also the tyres, especially in ev’s due to being heavier usually, are bad for the environment.
I just replaced mine at 35,000 miles. Not materially different to any other car I have had. Another little bit of uninformed misinformation.
 

jon0844

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There are actually quite a lot of cargo bikes popping up in London, which is good as they're common elsewhere in the world.

We do seem to believe that children, old people, or anyone needing to carry goods are totally unable to cycle. Or that everyone has a disability. Or that rain stops you being able to cycle...

EVs solve the pollution issue but not congestion and are just part of the jigsaw.
 

Peter Sarf

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99% of the vehicles that caught fire in Sweden were ICE vs electric, so I don't think we need concern ourselves with that. Plus we have LFP batteries becoming more common and solid state etc.

Frankly, nobody will want an ICE car by 2030, let alone 2045. We're approaching price parity now and ranges are almost beyond what most people could ever do without a break. Charging is getting faster too.

Anyone continuing to build ICE cars will find it harder and harder to sell them, unless they're very specialist vehicles for the most hardcore petrol heads.

Another reason people will want an EV is as a home battery to reduce energy bills. Who uses their petrol car as a generator to power their home or sell electricity to balance the grid?
My bold
Meaningless unless we know what proportion of cars are EV. Also worth considering relative severity of the fires.

EV is lost on me for charging and also for balancing my home use of the grid because I have no drive. The car will often be too far away. That applies to a lot of people.
Yeah I have to wait till solid state and less flammable batteries come out. I know it’s media fuelled fear but seeing that ev fires happen and are worse than ice fires puts me off considering getting an ev. There are much less ev’s than ice cars in the road so fire stats seem a bit skewed to say ice cars are more likely to catch fire.
The thing with an EV fire in the batteries is that it is very hard to stop the fire once it has started - it does not need oxygen. Most fires (so non-battery) are put out by starving the fire of oxygen (drowning them in Water, Powder or Carbon-Dioxide) that does not work with an EV battery.
How many of them are delivery vans, buses, taxis, minicabs, emergency services vehicles, doctors, shift staff, delivery lorries (eg stocking shops and supermarkets), plumbers and builders vans etc etc which are essential. (Ever seen a plumber on a bike?). It would be useful to know how many were private cars, not used for the purposes outlined above. I would guess at around 750,000, which is less than 1 in 10 of the population.
It is hard to tell and we have evolved into calling on services from further afield rather than sticking with very local. I am thinking of London here.

I have also got a bee in my bonnet about out of town shopping areas which encourage/dictate car use. We planned our way into a mess.
I don't want one now or ever again in the future!

Nope. EVs are something like 800 times less likely to catch fire, at that's accounting for the differenct numbers on the road. Kinda makes sense when you realise they are carrying 50l of flammable fuel around!

Nope. The tyres actually last longer on EVs. Weight doesn't really cause tyre wear (and the weight thing is largely mythical too). What causes tyre wear is jerky acceleration from changing gears, heavy braking and going round corners too quickly.
EVs have very smooth ascertain and braking.
I bought my Tesla second hand sat 25,000 miles. I replaced the rear tyres at about 50,000 miles. It's now at 68,000 miles and I can get to replace the front tyres. I believe they are the original factory fitted tyres. No ice vehicle tyres have ever lasted that long for me.

Suggest you stop listening to the fud and go have some test drives.
Jerky acceleration is far worse with electric. I use a lot of buses and the electric buses are terrible for vicious acceleration and harsh deceleration. I have an injury leading to deep vein thrombosis to convince me. Electric buses are a veritable fairground ride compared to their ponderous diesel predecessors. I cannot understand why their acceleration is not limited in some way. I am not anti electric BUT they are dangerous.

Irony is that my route (119 Croydon to Bromley) switched over to electric buses a year (or two) back. The last few months, however, we rarely get an electric bus on the route - instead we get a menagerie of various different diesel buses. Now it maybe that it has been decided to put the electric busses on a different route BUT :-

Another route (312 iirc) has reverted to diesel and I have been told it is because the batteries were failing. Apparently they need on average £100k spent to repair each bus.

I fully expect battery tech to improve over time. But I think at the moment there is a risk of battery tech getting a bad image if we progress too fast.

I will say it again - we need to reduce are dependence on road vehicles but instead we are just rushing towards a sticking plaster solution that will not improve congestion.
Most of those tasks can more efficiently be accomplished using smaller, lighter vehicles. Dropping a Streetview pin on a random area in Zone 2 brought up a street filled with parked cars, only one van (belonging to the electricity company) in shot. You mention doctors, perhaps more would take up cycling to work if it were safer:


Yes, there are quite a few around these days, particularly in London.


Is there still a loophole that allows people to dodge the congestion charge by registering their car as a minicab?
My bold
If the GP is out on visits then they have a driver driving them (that is what I see AND I have been told this is partly for security but also so the GP is less loaded with driving issues). Also I imagine the GP could be taking enough equipment with them that a bicycle is not suitable.

Maybe an EV is suitable ?.
There are actually quite a lot of cargo bikes popping up in London, which is good as they're common elsewhere in the world.

We do seem to believe that children, old people, or anyone needing to carry goods are totally unable to cycle. Or that everyone has a disability. Or that rain stops you being able to cycle...

EVs solve the pollution issue but not congestion and are just part of the jigsaw.
I just wish those Cargo bikes would stay off the pavement and respect the highway code - As a pedestrian I am really getting a lot of near misses these last few years.

For me I mainly walk or use the bus (it is a 20 minute walk into town which trumps the variable bus frequency - actual not planned). For further afield it is train into London then coach for the rest of even longer trips. But my car is used if I have too much to carry. I am quite proud of the fact I use my car as little as possible. It will be a long time before an EV becomes cheap enough for me to buy secondhand but I see progress.

For me I see ecology as avoiding car use as much as possible - that to me is simpler. The car is there for when I really need it.
 
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stuu

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Busses are kisses.

Buses are things you travel on

Best not to confuse the two
 

MotCO

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For me I mainly walk or use the bus (it is a 20 minute walk into town which trumps the variable bus frequency - actual not planned). For further afield it is train into London then coach for the rest of even longer trips. But my car is used if I have too much to carry. I am quite proud of the fact I use my car as little as possible. It will be a long time before an EV becomes cheap enough for me to buy secondhand but I see progress.
If you are a low mileage driver, then because of the higher cost of an EV, you will not travel enough miles to offset this extra cost, so an EV may not be for you.
 

Peter Sarf

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Busses are kisses.

Buses are things you travel on

Best not to confuse the two
Dang. I always encounter that - but I thought I always spotted it !.
Corrected (Argh all five - so far).
If you are a low mileage driver, then because of the higher cost of an EV, you will not travel enough miles to offset this extra cost, so an EV may not be for you.
Eventually EVs might be but it will be a long way off - probably when I am too old to drive which will sadly be when I am too old to stagger to the bus stop.
 

Hadders

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I've a feeling that for the owners of the luxury cars (Porsches, Range Rovers, Teslas etc.) which were a significant proportion last time I bothered to count cars in Soho it's more a question of "want" rather than "need". One of the problems with living in society is that people can't have unmitigated freedom to do whatever they like without regard for others.

Sure, there are work vehicles too but I've a feeling that light electric vans with a low top speed would be adequate for most delivery work within the city instead of heavy Transits which are capable of motorway speeds - think the sort of aluminium vehicles used in Zermatt which weigh less than an ICE SUV. Plenty of other societal benefits to reducing the amount of street space dedicated to motor vehicles too.
There's more to London than Soho. Go to places like Barnet, Enfield, Hillingdon, Dagenham - should they not be allowed to have a car to travel. Public transport in London is better than in other parts of the country but cars cannot be eliminated completely.

WHat about people who live in London but need to travel outside the capital?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I just replaced mine at 35,000 miles. Not materially different to any other car I have had. Another little bit of uninformed misinformation.
I've been driving a Hyundai Kona electric since June 2022. It's just hit 50,000 miles (being serviced on Tuesday!)

I replaced the front set of tyres last week, they still had 2mm on them. The rear set will be good for another 30,000 miles. No different to my last diesel car.
 

trebor79

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The thing with an EV fire in the batteries is that it is very hard to stop the fire once it has started - it does not need oxygen. Most fires (so non-battery) are put out by starving the fire of oxygen (drowning them in Water, Powder or Carbon-Dioxide) that does not work with an EV battery.
But they are much less likely to catch fire in the first place. And if your car catches fire, regardless of propulsion technology it's a total loss anyway, so doesn't really matter how it's put out.
Jerky acceleration is far worse with electric. I use a lot of buses and the electric buses are terrible for vicious acceleration and harsh deceleration. I have an injury leading to deep vein thrombosis to convince me. Electric buses are a veritable fairground ride compared to their ponderous diesel predecessors. I cannot understand why their acceleration is not limited in some way. I am not anti electric BUT they are dangerous.
Well allmi can say is the tyres on my EVs are lasting way longer than any ICE. That's what other EV drivers report too.
Another route (312 iirc) has reverted to diesel and I have been told it is because the batteries were failing. Apparently they need on average £100k spent to repair each bus.
Heresay
I fully expect battery tech to improve over time. But I think at the moment there is a risk of battery tech getting a bad image if we progress too fast.
Right. So the Tesla's that have done 250,000 miles or more in the past decade are no good?
How much evidence do you need?
 

Bikeman78

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Jerky acceleration is far worse with electric. I use a lot of buses and the electric buses are terrible for vicious acceleration and harsh deceleration. I have an injury leading to deep vein thrombosis to convince me. Electric buses are a veritable fairground ride compared to their ponderous diesel predecessors. I cannot understand why their acceleration is not limited in some way. I am not anti electric BUT they are dangerous.
You must have crap buses or crap drivers. The Yutongs in Cardiff are absolutely fine. They go like liked greased lightning but I haven't noticed a problem when pulling away.
 

Peter Sarf

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But they are much less likely to catch fire in the first place. And if your car catches fire, regardless of propulsion technology it's a total loss anyway, so doesn't really matter how it's put out.
It is not just the car - it is the damage done to the surroundings.
Well allmi can say is the tyres on my EVs are lasting way longer than any ICE. That's what other EV drivers report too.
One would expect the biggest factor to potentially be driving style. And with electric buses I do encounter dangerous levels of acceleration.

I try to drive smoothly so would expect my tyres to last longer than average - except I keep picking up screws and nails !. Last written off tyre was punishment for going to the recycling centre ! - I now park a bit badly so I am away from the drip zone at the back of the car so that way I will not pick something up hiding in a puddle.
From a driver who knows the engineers.
Right. So the Tesla's that have done 250,000 miles or more in the past decade are no good?
How much evidence do you need?
I counter with the Nissan Leaf (iirc). One example (good or bad) does not prove anything about EVs in general. It is highly probable that EVs will improve as the technology matures - it is relatively new technology.
You must have crap buses or crap drivers. The Yutongs in Cardiff are absolutely fine. They go like liked greased lightning but I haven't noticed a problem when pulling away.
+
Electric buses here in Brum seem fine as well.
Definitely different to Croydon then.
 

Krokodil

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Irony is that my route (119 Croydon to Bromley) switched over to electric buses a year (or two) back. The last few months, however, we rarely get an electric bus on the route - instead we get a menagerie of various different diesel buses. Now it maybe that it has been decided to put the electric busses on a different route BUT :-

Another route (312 iirc) has reverted to diesel and I have been told it is because the batteries were failing. Apparently they need on average £100k spent to repair each bus.
If only there was a way of transmitting electricity to buses (which handily tend to stick to fixed routes) without the need for batteries...

If the GP is out on visits then they have a driver driving them (that is what I see AND I have been told this is partly for security but also so the GP is less loaded with driving issues). Also I imagine the GP could be taking enough equipment with them that a bicycle is not suitable.
I doubt that there is more equipment than they could carry in a bakfiets, if not just in panniers. What exactly do you mean by "security"?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There's more to London than Soho. Go to places like Barnet, Enfield, Hillingdon, Dagenham - should they not be allowed to have a car to travel. Public transport in London is better than in other parts of the country but cars cannot be eliminated completely.
Well we've got to start somewhere and elimination from Zone 1 would be a good start.

WHat about people who live in London but need to travel outside the capital?
If only there were trains from London to destinations beyond. Heck, you could even hire a car for the odd trip.
 

Peter Sarf

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If only there was a way of transmitting electricity to buses (which handily tend to stick to fixed routes) without the need for batteries...
Ah yes. The long ago tried and tested trolley busses. Back when electrickery was first invented (or discovered/harnessed).
I doubt that there is more equipment than they could carry in a bakfiets, if not just in panniers. What exactly do you mean by "security"?
My interpretation was that some home visits might be to homes that were a bit of a hazard. Some people can get very angry if the medical help they or their family receive is not what they wanted. That view possibly comes from me living in Croydon !.
 

Hadders

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If only there were trains from London to destinations beyond. Heck, you could even hire a car for the odd trip.
I'm all for using rail but are you seriously saying that someone living in, for example, Reading and who has to travel to rural Northamptonshire on a regular basis (to visit family) should use rail or hire a car. I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.
 

LYradial

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Can somebody advise , I need to travel to remote west wales to visit a close relative, I can find a charge point on the way at Llandovery
it’s a type 2 connector what is that.
it has only 22kw so to do the round trip 140 miles I will need to charge there for 2 hours, is there a better way?

is 65p a kilowatt a reasonable price
 

Krokodil

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I'm all for using rail but are you seriously saying that someone living in, for example, Reading and who has to travel to rural Northamptonshire on a regular basis (to visit family) should use rail or hire a car. I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.
If they live in Reading and are going to rural Northamptonshire then at what point are they entering London (except possibly using the M25 which goes around rather than through it)?
 

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