Thameslink keyGo Smartcard error resolution

[johninstalbans]

I took two return journeys in one weekend recently - both entirely on Thameslink trains (without changing), crossing London each time and using only GoVia-operated stations.

My activity log with Thameslink smartcard shows the two journeys, correctly priced. However, the charges to my credit card (from 'Thameslink Webtis', as usual) were BOTH wrong and one was duplicated.

Naturally, I raised the issue online with Thameslink, who responded after about a week saying that I should take the matter up with TfL, 'who are responsible for contactless charging'.

I found this very surprising, having had NO contact with TfL during either journey. So I asked them to think again, but they have just said the same thing (so far without further explanation).

According to the TfL website, they are unable to deal with Contactless queries or refunds, owing to their ongoing Cyber Security attack! Also, their full definition of Contactless on the site does NOT include rail operators' Smartcards.

Can someone throw any light into this pool of darkness?

I should say that I have not previously had any such problems using this facility over several years.

Thanks

John

 

[island]

Someone at Thameslink has had half a look at your email, seen touch in/out, and assumed it was a credit/debit card touched rather than KeyGo, therefore fobbed you off to TfL.

You need to get back onto Thameslink and emphasise that you were using KeyGo.

 

[Haywain]

You need to get back onto Thameslink and emphasise that you were using KeyGo.

This. If you've mentioned contactless in your communication with Thameslink you will have clouded the issue.

 

[swing]

emphasise that you were using KeyGo

I'd go further and in every reference, refer to your "Thameslink KeyGo smartcard" (assuming you are speaking to Thameslink, and not Southern / Great Northern).

Did you check your KeyGo account the next day, or was it only after the charges appeared on your card? Also, are the charges based on your statement / running total, or just notifications? Was the journey a regular one, and in what way were the charges wrong?

 

[johninstalbans]

Thanks for your suggestions. I'm very pleased to see that no-one confirms what Thameslink has twice told me about TfL's involvement in keyGo Smartcard charging!

I have made a point of using the full phrase "Thameslink keyGo Smartcard" in all messages, as well as emphasising that my journeys were exclusively with Thameslink and using GoVia stations (with no TfL involvement whatever). I have never described the Smartcard as Contactless, as I believed that term described debit/credit card use.

I believe that I checked my Smartcard activity log within a day or so, because I wanted to check that the fare on one trip was what I had been quoted by TL. I was pleased to see that it was* - although I did take the opportunity to edit (confirm) one of the touch records which had been auto-filled correctly; the fare charged did not change.

The charges showed up quickly on my credit card running total - and have now been confirmed on my monthly statement. No correction has yet been processed.

One of the journeys was unique, while the other recurs irregularly.

I have attached the activity log. The card charges (all from Thameslink Webtis) were as follows:
7/10 £18.05
7/10 £6.25
9/10 £6.25

It's interesting that the first charge was equal to the total of the two journeys (per log).
*The second (and third) charges are for 50p less than the logged fare - I have noticed this discrepancy on previous occasions.

I am awaiting a response to my third demand for fuller information on their position re TfL - and pointing out that TfL are not dealing with such queries at present.

Thanks for your help.

 

[etr221]

My thought is that is not a 'fare' issue, but a 'payment' issue: as I see/understand it, the OP is in the same position as if he had been to a ticket vendor, bought a couple of tickets for the quoted price, and then found that the vendor had made extra or increased charges to his credit card account. The difference being that instead of tickets, he had records on his Key card activity log.

So the question he should be putting to Thameslink is "what are these charges you (Thameslink Webtis) have made to my credit card? Why can I not reconcile them with my KeyCard Activity Log?". And I would also suggest that - certainly if does not receive a prompt answer from Thameslink - that he contact his credit card provider about raising a payment dispute - that charges were made that should not have been, and that Thameslink have not explained.

 

[johninstalbans]

That's a helpful thought etr221. I'll use it on my next try. So far they are sticking to their line that TfL are responsible - without proper explanation, a position that hasn't gathered any support here.

 

[etr221]

A point I would perhaps make is that - if they are sticking to their claim that TfL are responsible - why are they (Thameslink) making any charge to your card?

My assumption is that for 'Project Oval' it is TfL (as it is an extension to their system) who are looking after the finances, and so sending out the bills/charging cards, as well as managing the technology (can anyone confirm this?), but not for 'The Key', which is a GTR/Thameslink system: the most that TfL do/should be doing is passing on details of touches on their readers (which GTR then have, with others on their readers, to convert to journies, hence fares, hence money due and demands for same).

 

[Hadders]

TfL administer Project Oval. KeyGo is a GTR system and managed by them.

 

[etr221]

TfL administer Project Oval. KeyGo is a GTR system and managed by them.

So am I right in my assumption that if I make a journey using contactless payment card/Project Oval I will be charged by TfL, but if by KeyGo, by GTR (and that is what I would see on my card statement) - even for what would otherwise be the same journey? And that - at least potentially - TfL (Project Oval) and GTR (KeyGo) could be charging different fares?

 

[Hadders]

So am I right in my assumption that if I make a journey using contactless payment card/Project Oval I will be charged by TfL, but if by KeyGo, by GTR (and that is what I would see on my card statement) - even for what would otherwise be the same journey?

That's correct. It alredy happens as there's a crossover between Oyster/contactless and KeyGo and has been for years. For example Welwyn Garden City to Kings Cross, St Albans to St Pancras, Victoria to Gatwick Airport etc.

And that - at least potentially - TfL (Project Oval) and GTR (KeyGo) could be charging different fares?

I think the intention with Oval is that the fares will be the same. There can be some differences at the moment so it's worth thinking about which system is best value for you and the journey you're making.

For some journeys using Oyster/contactless in one direction and KeyGo in the other might be the cheapest way.

 

[Richardr]

So am I right in my assumption that if I make a journey using contactless payment card/Project Oval I will be charged by TfL, but if by KeyGo, by GTR (and that is what I would see on my card statement) - even for what would otherwise be the same journey? And that - at least potentially - TfL (Project Oval) and GTR (KeyGo) could be charging different fares?

Certainly for where I live, if you have any type of railcard KeyGo will be cheaper as railcards can be added to it, and if the fare works out cheaper than a simple peak / off peak single then KeyGo will be cheaper - e.g. returns at weekends.

 

[johninstalbans]

Fascinating - and certainly right regarding the attachment of Railcards to the keyGo Smartcard (but Oyster too - hence I NEVER use contactless dr/cr card, despite TfL's constant urging!). Could someone explain Project Oval please (I've never heard of it)?

 

[swt_passenger]

…Could someone explain Project Oval please (I've never heard of it)?

233 extra stations being added to the TfL contactless system, but running very late. Theres a detailed thread about it here:

Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

TfL have won the DfT's contract to expand their contactless payment system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, which also includes the requirement to allow Railcards and concessionary discounts to be added to contactless payment cards Phase 1 Contactless payments in 53 stations – majority due...

www.railforums.co.uk

But if you don’t use contactless it won’t affect you at all, as the Oyster area will not be extended to match.

 

[johninstalbans]

Very interesting thanks swt. What a can of worms it opened - is there a thread that tells how the fare issues were resolved?

I certainly hope that such a change will NOT revert fares to a single journey basis - we live on 'off-peak/super off-peak/weekend super off-peak' day returns!

While St Albans has been accepting contactless for some time, it persistently excludes Oyster (which is available from Elstree, two stops into London). I always understood that was because TL and TfL couldn't agree on how to share the fare revenue - is that so?

 

[swt_passenger]

Very interesting thanks swt. What a can of worms it opened - is there a thread that tells how the fare issues were resolved?

I certainly hope that such a change will NOT revert fares to a single journey basis - we live on 'off-peak/super off-peak/weekend super off-peak' day returns!

While St Albans has been accepting contactless for some time, it persistently excludes Oyster (which is available from Elstree, two stops into London). I always understood that was because TL and TfL couldn't agree on how to share the fare revenue - is that so?

I haven’t kept up with the detail, living well outside the area, but I think from later posts in that other thread that a lot of fares in the initial Oval area have been adjusted so as to be based on Anytime and Offpeak singles only.

I believe the main reason Oyster hasn’t been extended is not because of difficulty with revenue sharing, but that they were limited to 16 zones, and they’re already used up.

 

[Hadders]

Very interesting thanks swt. What a can of worms it opened - is there a thread that tells how the fare issues were resolved?

I think the detail is all in the Project Oval thread.

I certainly hope that such a change will NOT revert fares to a single journey basis - we live on 'off-peak/super off-peak/weekend super off-peak' day returns!

Expect a move to Anytime and Off Peak. I suspect they’ll want rid of the cheaper weekend tickets that are excellent value.

While St Albans has been accepting contactless for some time, it persistently excludes Oyster (which is available from Elstree, two stops into London). I always understood that was because TL and TfL couldn't agree on how to share the fare revenue - is that so?

Nothing to do with a disagreement. It’s simply that Oyster is old tech (it was launched 21 years ago) and is limited in the number of fares zones it can cope with. No such limitation exists with contactless.

Note that it is sometimes cheaper to use contactless in one direction and a railcard discounted paper ticket or KeyGo in the other. Especially if your outward journey starts before 06:30.

 

[johninstalbans]

Thx - I hadn't noticed the further 39 pages!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2024 ==

That's a helpful thought etr221. I'll use it on my next try. So far they are sticking to their line that TfL are responsible - without proper explanation, a position that hasn't gathered any support here.

I have a resolution!

I finally had a response from a different Advisor, apologising for earlier unhelpful emails. As I (and all of you) understood, TfL had no role in this and should not have been brought into the discussion.

It turned out that TL HAD combined my two journeys (on different days) into one (correct) charge. However, they could find no trace of the two later charges on my account and suggested that another user linked to my credit card may have incurred them - and the penny dropped. MY wife had incurred both charges as part of a short stay in Yorkshire (SAC-SPI)! So all is well.

I have suggested that the first two Advisors need retraining.

Thanks for all your advice - and for opening my eyes to the ongoing developments in ticketing.