Cross Country

[Zoe]

So would you cut the service back so it only runs from Plymouth to Edinburgh or would you start some services back at Penzance and run some through to Aberdeen or maybe even Inverness?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think missing out leeds is a bad idea. But make leeds the slower service, and doncaster the faster service because alot fo people get on at leeds to go northbound. What XC needs to discourage is local passengers. Like people leeds york should not use XC when there is 3 tpe and 1 northern per hour.

 

[tbtc]

Good point, I’ve done that route on a diverted Voyager in the past. I don’t think missing out Doncaster is particularly necessary though when it is already the faster route compared to the Leeds alternative. I’m already very happy with the 3 hour Birmingham to Newcastle journey time offered by this route, and hence Birmingham to York or Leeds in 2 hours by one train an hour to each.

The tricky thing with Doncaster is that East Coast (and GNER/NXEC before them) have been dropping Doncaster calls from the Edinburgh/Newcastle services. The market from Doncaster to places further north (which includes those from the further afield changing trains there) has therefore been left to XC (in the way that XC were left the responsibility for flows like Chester le Street - Newcastle and Dronfield - Sheffield).

Again, possible to do, but every improvement means cutting something else

 

[button_boxer]

You could run along the line through Pontefract (currently gets two Northern services a day, but offers the fastest route from Sheffield to York)

Is York to Sheffield via Pontefract really faster than via Doncaster? It's clearly shorter but does it take any less time?

 

[tbtc]

I think missing out leeds is a bad idea. But make leeds the slower service, and doncaster the faster service because alot fo people get on at leeds to go northbound. What XC needs to discourage is local passengers. Like people leeds york should not use XC when there is 3 tpe and 1 northern per hour.

Leeds still has an hourly TPE service. The problem is that (either because Virgin had a few ORCATS raids or because other TOCs have pulled out of areas) the XC franchise ends up trying to serve hundreds of markets and cannot satisfy everything/everyone.
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Is York to Sheffield via Pontefract really faster than via Doncaster? It's clearly shorter but does it take any less time?

Depends on the line speeds. The Northern "stopper" can do the end to end journey in a similar time to the XC service via Doncaster (IIRC) though

 

[sprinterguy]

So would you cut the service back so it only runs from Plymouth to Edinburgh or would you start some services back at Penzance and run some through to Aberdeen or maybe even Inverness?

I’d view the Crosscountry network more as a set of overlapping route sections than in providing the longest end to end journey. While I strongly believe that XC should offer a true Intercity service due to them being the longest distance Intercity operator, you are right when you have said in the past that very few people would ever travel all the way from Penzance to Aberdeen by rail. For that matter, there can only be a limited number of people who would make the entirety of the journey from Plymouth to Edinburgh via XC, when it would be considerably quicker to change at New Street and travel via the West Coast.

As an example of this, and with no particular service pattern in mind here, I’d suggest that the XC network could be broken down into Penzance to Manchester, Bournemouth to Manchester, Plymouth to Newcastle and Reading to Edinburgh/Aberdeen as the typical length of service that should operate which would maintain direct links through the “core” section, on the most likely journeys such as Oxford to Manchester, Bristol to Leeds or, in the north, Sheffield to Edinburgh.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Leeds still has an hourly TPE service. The problem is that (either because Virgin had a few ORCATS raids or because other TOCs have pulled out of areas) the XC franchise ends up trying to serve hundreds of markets and cannot satisfy everything/everyone.
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Depends on the line speeds. The Northern "stopper" can do the end to end journey in a similar time to the XC service via Doncaster (IIRC) though

I think it needs more than an hourley service to newcastle though i travel this route regularly and it is never empty (can be middle of day sometimes but where isnt)

Yeah i travvelled it for first time the other day and we never seemed to reach any kind of speed. but still faster i think due to the more direct nature.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it needs more than an hourley service to newcastle though i travel this route regularly and it is never empty (can be middle of day sometimes but where isnt)

Maintaining regular links, and sufficient capacity, between the likes of Leeds and Newcastle is imperative to the prosperity of the economy in the North East, so I agree with you there. My native Tyne and Wear is something of a satellite community in relation to the other big northern towns.

There's definitely a big Leeds to Newcastle market.

 

[Trainbuff]

Perhaps what needs to be done is reduce the scope of the XC franchise? Run 1tph as an intercity service along the major axes (e.g. Edinburgh-Plymouth) using intercity spec rolling stock.

Then have regional operators run regional semi-fast services to maintain/increase capacity.

So, on the Edinburgh-Plymouth route, XC would run an intercity service making few stops, and, for example
- EMT run services such as Birmingham-Tamworth-Burton-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield then on to Leeds/York/Hull
- Northern/TPE run similar connecting services in the North-East
- ATW/LM run Cardiff-Birmingham semi-fast services
- etc

That way, the XC franchise is focussed on intercity services.

EDIT: The XC franchise could then exclusively use proper intercity stock such as HSTs, with Voyagers cascaded to the regional operators.

Of course XC stopping at intermediate stations gives them an extra financial incentive. If they stopped at less stations they would lose a share of ALL fares from that station. Do you think that XC would do this ,as it would cause less money to be streamed into their cash cow, which they are milking dry

 

[Zoe]

For that matter, there can only be a limited number of people who would make the entirety of the journey from Plymouth to Edinburgh via XC, when it would be considerably quicker to change at New Street and travel via the West Coast.

However not everyone finds changing at New Street easy and if you are going to make XC an Intercity service and remove some of the calls then journey time to Edinburgh would be faster. As for the extreme ends of the network though I'm not sure you'd even get a single journey between Penzance and Aberdeen in a week but Aberdeen should still have a direct service at least to Birmingham. You could also run one XC service each day to Inverness to give a direct link between the Midlands and the Highlands.

 

[Aictos]

Trouble with that is that it means Doncaster and Scunthorpe would lose a Manchester service, and Sheffield-Cleethorpes via Lincoln is one hell of a long way.

What Sheffield-Cleethorpes via Lincoln service?

I can see Scunthorpe to Lincoln via Sheffield though which although is shorter then from Cleethorpes is still a hell of a long way.

 

[sprinterguy]

However not everyone finds changing at New Street easy and if you are going to make XC an Intercity service and remove some of the calls then journey time to Edinburgh would be faster. As for the extreme ends of the network though I'm not sure you'd even get a single journey between Penzance and Aberdeen in a week but Aberdeen should still have a direct service at least to Birmingham. You could also run one XC service each day to Inverness to give a direct link between the Midlands and the Highlands.

Removing stops from the existing Crosscountry services won’t necessarily make them much faster (It’ll save a few minutes here and there I’m sure), as they will still have to be pathed amongst the other, slower services either side. This is particularly relevant over route sections such as Sheffield to Leeds where they’re amongst Northern services, or the Birmingham Cross City line from Kings Norton. The principal reason for removing stops from XC would be to discourage local passengers from making journeys on the long distance services, reducing overcrowding and making travel a more relaxing experience that is better suited to a long distance journey between major cities.

As I say, a Birmingham to Aberdeen journey on XC would still be possible by my rule of thumb, it’s the longest distance journeys such as Bristol (or further into the south west) to Aberdeen that would be lost without having to make a change. Nothing wrong with having one or two trains a day that break from the norm and extend beyond these core sections, but there’s a limited length of journey that should realistically be possible without making a change of train, especially where a faster alternative exists as this reduces the attractiveness of the slower service even though some people would prefer to make the through journey. This’ll probably open a can of worms about the London to Inverness service…

 

[Zoe]

This is particularly relevant over route sections such as Sheffield to Leeds

The plan was though to run the longer distance services via Doncaster to save time and Plymouth to Edinburgh services should take this route. There is a question though over if Penzance needs to have an XC service at all when anyone going from Penzance to the North East could change at Plymouth. I'm not convinced that Penzance even needs as many London services as it currently gets. Many journeys from stations in Cornwall are only as far as Plymouth.

 

[sprinterguy]

The plan was though to run the longer distance services via Doncaster to save time and Plymouth to Edinburgh services should take this route. There is a question though over if Penzance needs to have an XC service at all when anyone going from Penzance to the North East could change at Plymouth. I'm not convinced that Penzance even needs as many London services as it currently gets. Many journeys from stations in Cornwall are only as far as Plymouth.

Which is already the faster route anyway, so the journey time benefits from running via Doncaster are already there. I simply mentioned Sheffield to Leeds as one of the most obvious examples of where XC timings will conflict with those of other, slower services. These conflicts still exist to a less extent over most, if not all, sections of the Crosscountry network.

The Penzance services, particularly the London trains, should definitely not be cut back. Penzance is another location that relies on good links to the rest of the region, and preferably beyond, to maintain its’ prosperity. Good links to the regional centre of Plymouth from Penzance are as important as good links to the regional centre of Leeds (eurgh) are from Newcastle in my example above. There's a big tourist trade in the area surrounding Penzance that deserves to have direct train services from Birmingham at the very least, connecting into other services from the north.

 

[Zoe]

Good links to the regional centre of Plymouth from Penzance are as important as good links to the regional centre of Leeds (eurgh) are from Newcastle in my example above. There's a big tourist trade in the area surrounding Penzance that deserves to have direct train services from Birmingham at the very least, connecting into other services from the north.

Yes, good links between Penzance and Plymouth are needed. The question is if Penzance needs as many direct trains to London as it currently gets. The wires are never going to reach Penzance so needing to continue the current service to Penzance will result in bi-mode or DMUs for all services to the Westcountry long term even after HSTs. Is there any reason why the Penzance to London direct service could not be cut back to say 3 or 4 trains each day?

 

[sprinterguy]

Yes, good links between Penzance and Plymouth are needed. The question is if Penzance needs as many direct trains to London as it currently gets. The wires are never going to reach Penzance so needing to continue the current service to Penzance will result in bi-mode or DMUs for all services to the Westcountry long term even after HSTs. Is there any reason why the Penzance to London direct service could not be cut back to say 3 or 4 trains each day?

I’ve considered it before, and while I cannot provide figures for the size of the market for travel between London and Penzance, my limited experiences of rail services in that neck of the woods suggests that Penzance does need more than three or four direct trains to London each day, even though maintaining a diesel operated Penzance to Birmingham (and beyond) XC service makes more sense operationally, possibly interspersed with a Cardiff to Penzance service (although even this loses its’ appeal if the wires get to Plymouth and stop there) to give good connections into regular London trains at Bristol.

 

[OxtedL]

Cornwall needs direct trains to the rest of the country to help it remain prosperous. Without them, people will not use the train, and will either drive (which is quite difficult at some times of year) or go elsewhere. Maybe Spain.

It would be lovely to be able to cut back all inter-regional services to Plymouth, and might even give the route a business case for electrification, for example, but it would simply be a bad idea. One that I've wondered about before, however...

 

[MCR247]

Love how people go

- Always ridiculously overcrowded
- No advance tickets/very expensive

 

[WestCoast]

Love how people go:

Advance tickets I can understand, but increasing the already extortionate walk-up fares and adding further restrictions seems puerile.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Would you still call it intercity if the train started at Birmingham and only ran to York?

Yes, absolutely. And would deserve an InterCity standard of train with first class and hot food available.

 

[dfishw]

I think a pattern where by the "core" network sees the same or even increase in service: eg bristol, reading, manchester, york square. Whilst the outer bits have a reduced service allowing trains to run to/from other areas. I mean like is it necessary to have a train every hour from edinburgh to plymouth, when say cardiff hasnt got very many? Same thing could be said about portsmouth, brighton etc. This was the pattern virgin used and it was better as it kept the best of both worlds. On the trains, i think there definatly should be hot meals at least in first class and probably in other classes. Just sandwiches and snacks for a long journey availabel at only ad hoc times is usueless for any long distance traveller. As to how long i dont know. Some are very busy but others arent so i guess it is either you put long trains on all stretches, split/join coaches for where you know the busy bits will be or just run them as they are. Have no idea how you get round that. I also think that turbostars should be replaced with voyagers. I agree they arent the best trains but are a massive improvment on a turbostar: at least they have a "cross country style" feel to them and it would bring trolley services and first class accom to these services, something lacking at present,

 

[RichmondCommu]

I do actually hate travelling on XC. Nature of work means I have to travel a lot, sometimes at short notice, and usually it means some form of XC service due to the places I need to go. More than once I've turned up and upgraded to First class out of my own pocket due to the entire train being utterly RAMMED. Not just busy, I'm talking aisles and vestibules full, cases and bags occupying every piece of space that isn't already occupied by a person. People stretched out in the vestibules, the trolley isolated at (sods law) the opposite end of where I am.

I know that this isn't XC's fault for inheriting the worst pieces of "Intercity" stock ever, but a bit of investment to lengthen these things would be an absolute lifesaver. How on earth can you justify such long Intercity cross-country routes stretching the length and breadth of the country, serving huge population centres...with 4 coach trains?

The "worst pieces of Intercity stock ever" are far better than a clapped out cl47 and mk2 coaches. I agree that there are no where near enough Voyagers on XC but they are at least very reliable and very quick.

 

[Greenback]

I think a pattern where by the "core" network sees the same or even increase in service: eg bristol, reading, manchester, york square. Whilst the outer bits have a reduced service allowing trains to run to/from other areas. I mean like is it necessary to have a train every hour from edinburgh to plymouth, when say cardiff hasnt got very many? Same thing could be said about portsmouth, brighton etc. This was the pattern virgin used and it was better as it kept the best of both worlds. On the trains, i think there definatly should be hot meals at least in first class and probably in other classes. Just sandwiches and snacks for a long journey availabel at only ad hoc times is usueless for any long distance traveller. As to how long i dont know. Some are very busy but others arent so i guess it is either you put long trains on all stretches, split/join coaches for where you know the busy bits will be or just run them as they are. Have no idea how you get round that. I also think that turbostars should be replaced with voyagers. I agree they arent the best trains but are a massive improvment on a turbostar: at least they have a "cross country style" feel to them and it would bring trolley services and first class accom to these services, something lacking at present,

Cardiff already has direct trains to and from Manchester, Nottingham and Portsmouth. If you reduce or withdraw the Plymouth services then Plymouth will only have the London trains.

I don't think that is sufficient for a city like Plymouth. It needs services to Bristol and Birmingham, which the XC services currently provide.

 

[222007]

I used this service back in 2009 from Birmingham to Nuneaton and it seemed very strange that it was only a two car 170. It was as may be expected, full and standing.

Indeed spare a thought for us poor staff who have to work these units. People criticise the voyagers but try a 170 thats full and standing. We do our best to get people to where they want to be. We work with what we are given and try to keep a smile on our face. CrossCountry is not perfect but show me an operator that is. When your hands are tied by the political red tape stopping you from doing anything without there say so it makes it difficult. But hey tomorows another day

 

[Mojo]

I am surprised about the comments regarding XC's First class service - it is a marked improvement from Virgin days who introduced the derided snack boxes. Now with XC where First class hosts are provided customers can choose from a menu which includes hot items. In addition to this, XC have recruited new First class hosts meaning that services are available between Bristol and Plymouth and between Newcastle and Edinburgh.

This is a much better offer compared to, say, FGW who only offer drinks and light bites (nuts, crisps, biscuits, fruit).

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Three simple reasons for the dislike:

1. Lack of capacity
2. Lack of capacity
3. Lack of capacity

It's not very often that we agree on things but this is one time that we are going to agree. Having travelled on a few Voyagers when they are crowded and packed and then being forced to either stand or sit in the vestibles, the ride is very uncomfortable and there is a horrible noise from the connection pods

Some people just hate Arriva - they would get stick if they ran any TOC!

Have you noticed how Arriva and XC are owned by the same company, I think and could be wrong, and people don't like either of them?

 

[WestCoast]

Have you noticed how Arriva and XC are owned by the same company, I think and could be wrong, and people don't like either of them?

Do you mean DB? Well, they also directly operate the well praised Chiltern Railways (instead of through Arriva)...

 

[IanPooleTrains]

I know, it is a weird situation.

I'll be the first to admit I don't like Cross Country and I really don't like Arriva Trains Wales but I love travelling on Chiltern

I don't know why it is but I'll only travel on ATW and Xc if I have to

 

[Bayum]

It's not very often that we agree on things but this is one time that we are going to agree. Having travelled on a few Voyagers when they are crowded and packed and then being forced to either stand or sit in the vestibles, the ride is very uncomfortable and there is a horrible noise from the connection pods



Have you noticed how Arriva and XC are owned by the same company, I think and could be wrong, and people don't like either of them?

And this is exactly the reason why the XC franchise have tried to shy away from the 'arriva' name, because they know people don't necessarily associate it with a good operator.

 

[WestCoast]

I am surprised First still puts its name to franchises, their bus operations (and arguably some of their trains), have a dismal reputation. Some of their bus divisions are absolutely pathetic anyway.

Stagecoach has never done it with a TOC and Arriva have stopped doing it (apart from ATW which still lingers from previous policy).