Discussion About What Should Happen if Unable to Show a Ticket Due to Phone Running Out of Charge

[OLJR]

Moderator Note - split from:

Phone died on arriving train station - Travel incident report

Hi all, On Sat 19/10 I was travelling back from Manchester Picadilly to Leeds, my phone died as I got off the train at Leeds station (ticket was scanned on the train). Instead of charging my phone for me so I can scan the ticket and be on my way they decided to take my details and was advised I...

www.railforums.co.uk

Hang on, surely this is outrageous?

The railway is actively encouraging people to buy tickets that are intended to be shown on electronic devices. Then, when a device needs a charge, they go the whole nine yards of out of court settlement plus the full fare for the journey. The railways knows, or can reasonably be expected to know, that some devices will lose charge during the course of normal journeys.

I think we can safely say that every single railway station in the country has an electric socket that the phone can be plugged into for a few minutes.

The "produce a valid ticket on demand" principle does not demand instant compliance. In the paper world a reasonable amount of time is always permitted for the passenger to find the ticket, get it out of the wallet and look through what may be one of several coupons to find the correct document. So why is a few minutes to plug in a phone and get the ticket up not allowed?

I do not see why this should be at anyone's discretion. If the passenger has a ticket, they should be given a fair chance to show it if their device has lost charge.

If it were me, I would be objecting in the strongest possible terms.

 

[chawky]

Hang on, surely this is outrageous?

The railway is actively encouraging people to buy tickets that are intended to be shown on electronic devices. Then, when a device needs a charge, they go the whole nine yards of out of court settlement plus the full fare for the journey. The railways knows, or can reasonably be expected to know, that some devices will lose charge during the course of normal journeys.

I think we can safely say that every single railway station in the country has an electric socket that the phone can be plugged into for a few minutes.

The "produce a valid ticket on demand" principle does not demand instant compliance. In the paper world a reasonable amount of time is always permitted for the passenger to find the ticket, get it out of the wallet and look through what may be one of several coupons to find the correct document. So why is a few minutes to plug in a phone and get the ticket up not allowed?

I do not see why this should be at anyone's discretion. If the passenger has a ticket, they should be given a fair chance to show it if their device has lost charge.

If it were me, I would be objecting in the strongest possible terms.

If you have your own cable and are next to a public power point, then sure most staff will wait for you power up your phone.

OP says they were expecting gateline staff to ‘charge my phone for me’. They’re absolutely not obliged to do that.

 

[Fermiboson]

Hang on, surely this is outrageous?

The railway is actively encouraging people to buy tickets that are intended to be shown on electronic devices. Then, when a device needs a charge, they go the whole nine yards of out of court settlement plus the full fare for the journey. The railways knows, or can reasonably be expected to know, that some devices will lose charge during the course of normal journeys.

I think we can safely say that every single railway station in the country has an electric socket that the phone can be plugged into for a few minutes.

The "produce a valid ticket on demand" principle does not demand instant compliance. In the paper world a reasonable amount of time is always permitted for the passenger to find the ticket, get it out of the wallet and look through what may be one of several coupons to find the correct document. So why is a few minutes to plug in a phone and get the ticket up not allowed?

I do not see why this should be at anyone's discretion. If the passenger has a ticket, they should be given a fair chance to show it if their device has lost charge.

If it were me, I would be objecting in the strongest possible terms.

Firstly, it is definitely not true that every railway station has a socket, or indeed, any sort of electricity. It is also not true that any sockets, let alone working ones, are readily available on many trains, where a guard/RPI may check the ticket.

Secondly, the process of finding a paper ticket (assuming one is eventually produced) indicates that the ticket is in the possession and use of the passenger. The same cannot be said of e-tickets.

Thirdly, so, so many fare evaders will have used it as an excuse (along with its cousin, “I can’t display my railcard because my phone is dead”) that many railway staff will be immediately suspicious upon hearing such a thing. This is not necessarily a defence of the legislation but it is natural human instinct.

I agree that the railway’s push for e-tickets is mistaken, partially for the reasons you outline above. However, as it stands, when you use an e-ticket, you should know well the terms, conditions and risks, as you should when you use any product.

Full sympathy to the OP, but while a trial in the court of public opinion would likely be found in OP’s favour, the effort and hassle taken to achieve such a result is in all likelihood worth far more than the 100 pounds needed for a settlement. Hopefully Northern is able to show some humanity; if they are not, a polite letter supplying proof of purchase and travel, with an offer to pay the full fare, may lower the financial cost induced.

 

[John R]

I fully agree that it seems outrageous to not give the passenger 5 mins to charge their phone given they were stuck at the Leeds ticket barrier, there was no rush.

The OP expected the gateline staff to "charge my phone for me", and I think that is unrealistic. Neither can you expect staff to hold a supply of chargebanks and wait around, keeping an eye on the passenger to make sure they don't conveniently drift off with the chargebank. If someone has the means to charge it themselves then I agree they should be allowed to connect it to their chargebank and power the phone up, but that's about all.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Hang on, surely this is outrageous?

The railway is actively encouraging people to buy tickets that are intended to be shown on electronic devices. Then, when a device needs a charge, they go the whole nine yards of out of court settlement plus the full fare for the journey. The railways knows, or can reasonably be expected to know, that some devices will lose charge during the course of normal journeys.

I think we can safely say that every single railway station in the country has an electric socket that the phone can be plugged into for a few minutes.

The "produce a valid ticket on demand" principle does not demand instant compliance. In the paper world a reasonable amount of time is always permitted for the passenger to find the ticket, get it out of the wallet and look through what may be one of several coupons to find the correct document. So why is a few minutes to plug in a phone and get the ticket up not allowed?

I do not see why this should be at anyone's discretion. If the passenger has a ticket, they should be given a fair chance to show it if their device has lost charge.

If it were me, I would be objecting in the strongest possible terms.

Really???

How low are we going to keep dropping the bar of personal responsibility?

As far as I'm aware, every smartphone capable of displaying a rail ticket shows the remaining battery life in some form. If you know your ticket is on your phone, it's really not difficult to see your battery life running low - say 20% or less - and take steps to preserve it.

 

[KirkstallOne]

The OP expected the gateline staff to "charge my phone for me", and I think that is unrealistic. Neither can you expect staff to hold a supply of chargebanks and wait around, keeping an eye on the passenger to make sure they don't conveniently drift off with the chargebank. If someone has the means to charge it themselves then I agree they should be allowed to connect it to their chargebank and power the phone up, but that's about all.

Well we don’t know the exact interaction but from the OPs description they were far from helpful and I can picture the glee with which his request was denied.

But, for what it’s worth, for an industry with zero tolerance for not being able to show a ticket, and a push towards buying through an app, then if they were interested in having happy customers I would expect them to provide some charging facilities at a major gateline like leeds.

 

[fishwomp]

Yes. The requirement is that you both purchased a ticket and are able to produce it throughout the journey, i.e. until you have left the station at the destination. Keeping your phone charged is your responsibility; perhaps in future you may want to consider carrying a power bank or charger (TPE trains have sockets you can plug into). Or if you see your battery going low put your phone in flight mode, which will mean not using it for other purposes but will make even 1% of battery last hours.

Whilst it is possible that someone else could be using your ticket if you're not able to produce it - it would be trivial for the company to verify the last time at which said ticket was scanned. If that ticket has been scanned elsewhere, before or after, then it's fraud. If not, it's legitimate. End of story.

The railway company possesses all the facts to know whether someone is guilty or not. Perhaps they can engage Fujitsu to help prosecute?

Hang on, surely this is outrageous?

It _is_ outrageous.

The railway is actively encouraging people to buy tickets that are intended to be shown on electronic devices. Then, when a device needs a charge, they go the whole nine yards of out of court settlement plus the full fare for the journey. The railways knows, or can reasonably be expected to know, that some devices will lose charge during the course of normal journeys.
[.]

Some companies did (do?) say that paper copies of digital tickets are not allowed - even though the barcode is same whether on the app or as a print out.. Muppets.

Also, ever been on a train where the charger didn't work - I did last year, every carriage on a GWR 165, after getting off a 10 hour plane journey in Gatwick, my battery was dead. I had my laptop which had the email as back up, thankfully.

The "produce a valid ticket on demand" principle does not demand instant compliance. In the paper world a reasonable amount of time is always permitted for the passenger to find the ticket, get it out of the wallet and look through what may be one of several coupons to find the correct document. So why is a few minutes to plug in a phone and get the ticket up not allowed?

That would be interesting to know - from legal perspective., what definition of 'at the time' might mean. For example, could one ask other passengers to loan the charger, could one ask the guard (or other passenger) to let you check email on their device. The police give you 24 hours or so to produce documents at the local police station after all for some pretty serious road matters.

*Or* guess what, the guard is actually connected to the internet and could look up your details very, very, easily. Simple.

But you know what, it's _easier_ to impose one-sided unfair and unreasonable suppositions of guilt and criminality on customers, there may not be a pleasure in it, but there is extra money.

Really???

How low are we going to keep dropping the bar of personal responsibility?

As far as I'm aware, every smartphone capable of displaying a rail ticket shows the remaining battery life in some form. If you know your ticket is on your phone, it's really not difficult to see your battery life running low - say 20% or less - and take steps to preserve it.

Right, on a train with no working socket? Or when you haven't got charger or cable (I've been travelling and had 3-pin plug but no USB-A .. and vice-versa). Plenty of today's phones don't last the day when they're 2 yrs old.

The railway cannot be allowed to - and cannot afford to - criminalize honest customers. End of rant.

 

[OLJR]

Some companies did (do?) say that paper copies of digital tickets are not allowed - even though the barcode is same whether on the app or as a print out.

If my understanding is correct then that one would be very easily defended in court. The document showing the barcode, whether paper or electronic, is not actually the ticket. It is a link to the e-ticket which is held on the TOC's system. Scanning the barcode shows the inspector the ticket details. Can I assume that is how it works?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Right, on a train with no working socket? Or when you haven't got charger or cable (I've been travelling and had 3-pin plug but no USB-A .. and vice-versa). Plenty of today's phones don't last the day when they're 2 yrs old.

The railway cannot be allowed to - and cannot afford to - criminalize honest customers. End of rant.

People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. I refuse to accept that somebody who has their rail ticket on their phone is going to be unaware that their phone battery level is getting low, in good time to do something about. Less than 20% battery left, an hour or two before your train? Get off TikTok. Have a break from Instagram. Go a couple of hours without listening to your music. Turn on battery saver mode. Use flight mode. Turn the damn thing off. Find a way of getting some additional charge into it before you get on the train. If travelling with somebody, send a screenshot of the ticket to their phone. There's plenty of options beyond letting it run completely flat and then blaming the railway for it.

 

[fishwomp]

People need to start taking responsibility for their own actions. I refuse to accept that somebody who has their rail ticket on their phone is going to be unaware that their phone battery level is getting low, in good time to do something about. Less than 20% battery left, an hour or two before your train? Get off TikTok. Have a break from Instagram. Go a couple of hours without listening to your music. Turn on battery saver mode. Use flight mode. Turn the damn thing off. Find a way of getting some additional charge into it before you get on the train. If travelling with somebody, send a screenshot of the ticket to their phone. There's plenty of options beyond letting it run completely flat and then blaming the railway for it.

Well, when I was on the plane - in my example - I thought it was charging, but it wasn't.
Not everyone is on tiktok or railforums all day - sometimes the battery just goes quicker than you expect - a rogue app update can do that, or 5 mins on maps to get you to the station in an unfamiliar town..
If nothing like that has ever happened to you, you are in the minority.
It's not about "blaming the railway" - there is no "blame" - it's the railway not being reasonable. It's not the end of the world to take details and validate the ticket afterwards - the computer knows what has been used and has not.

Once this gets thrown out by the courts as unreasonable, the railway can instead pay (or rather, the taxpayer can) compensation - or it can do the right thing _now_.

 

[John R]

Well, when I was on the plane - in my example - I thought it was charging, but it wasn't.

10 hours on the plane and you didn't notice it wasn't charging? And I wouldn't travel half way round the world without a fully charged charge bank, whether or not my phone had my travel ticket on it.

 

[alistairlees]

If you also had a laptop with you, then you should have been able to access your tickets on there (via your email), and could show them on the laptop screen. That's just as valid as on a phone. As is printed paper, of course.

 

[Adam Williams]

It is a link to the e-ticket which is held on the TOC's system. Scanning the barcode shows the inspector the ticket details. Can I assume that is how it works?

No, that's not how it works.

 

[Haywain]

If my understanding is correct then that one would be very easily defended in court. The document showing the barcode, whether paper or electronic, is not actually the ticket. It is a link to the e-ticket which is held on the TOC's system. Scanning the barcode shows the inspector the ticket details. Can I assume that is how it works?

Your understanding is not correct.

 

[alistairlees]

I think that, at larger stations like Leeds, it would be sensible to have a charging station / pod (as are found at airports) with cables attached, so that customers can charge phones by enough to get them going again and show their tickets. The goal should be to help customers, and to presume innocence. The charging station / pod would need to be near the gateline, but not in the way of customer flow.

 

[Haywain]

I don't imagine it would be terribly difficult, at a station like Leeds, to find someone working in one of the retail outlets on the bridge who would be willing to help charge a phone.

 

[KNN]

I thought about spinning a thread off earlier myself. I'm not sure if it's outrageous but it's certainly not the attitude of a country I'd be proud of.

I appreciate you wouldn't take it on trust, same with "I forgot my Railcard", but it seems unfair to uphold a fine/penalty fare if it's subsequently proven that they were telling the truth.

I can understand coming down hard on short farers and the "pay when challenged" crowd, but do we really want a railway that treats simple mistakes the same as fraud?

 

[John R]

I think that, at larger stations like Leeds, it would be sensible to have a charging station / pod (as are found at airports) with cables attached, so that customers can charge phones by enough to get them going again and show their tickets. The goal should be to help customers, and to presume innocence. The charging station / pod would need to be near the gateline, but not in the way of customer flow.

So what then happens at smaller stations? “Oh last time I ran out you had somewhere for me to recharge. Why don’t you here? That’s not my fault.”

A concession quickly becomes an expectation. As has been said, it’s very clear when a phone starts to run low. You get warning messages, and the charge icon turns red. At that point, reduce your use and eventually stop using it so you still have charge at the gateline.

And if your phone is prone to running out quickly you can a) decide it’s time for a new phone b) carry a charge bank or c) use paper tickets, which are still allowed, despite many people thinking them terribly old fashioned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

10 hours on the plane and you didn't notice it wasn't charging? And I wouldn't travel half way round the world without a fully charged charge bank, whether or not my phone had my travel ticket on it.

If you put a phone in flight mode and turn the screen off it will last hours at 1%. I've even managed an hour or so listening to music on 1% though that was with wired earphones.

At say 20% you'd get a day or more.

 

[Statto]

Although i don't buy mobile tickets (i normally buy paper tickets) but when i'm out for the day (& know my phone is going to be running low) i always take a power bank with me so i can charge up my phone (& other devices), you can get decent power banks now for £20 to £30 that hold a lot of charge.

 

[trainswitheddy]

If you put a phone in flight mode and turn the screen off it will last hours at 1%. I've even managed an hour or so listening to music on 1% though that was with wired earphones.

At say 20% you'd get a day or more.

Not all batteries are built the same - battery lifespan can vary massively depending on age, charge cycles etc. My phone had a tendency to drop battery sat idle in my pocket (Not great when you're trying to use track diagrams to check when a special train is coming )
On the topic of dead phones, I'm really not sure why this is such an issue. As another commentor has said further up thread the idea that those who've made a mistake should be treated the same as those who have fare evaded is utterly ridiculous
If the railway wants to entice people to travel, why is it so desperate to punish those that are genuine fare payers?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

There are huge billboards at many stations, particularly Avanti, Northern and LNWR regarding this. If your ticket is on the device, YOU (the passenger) are responsible for keeping enough charge to show it at any point during your journey.

The absolute vast majority, like 95%+ of these situations that I come across every day and chancers that if I plug their phone into my printer it miraculously turns on with plenty of battery left.

Whilst I agree that you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush, if you can't show your ticket during a ticket inspection, regardless of whether it's paper, CCST or digital, the outcome would be the same.

 

[trainswitheddy]

There are huge billboards at many stations, particularly Avanti, Northern and LNWR regarding this. If your ticket is on the device, YOU (the passenger) are responsible for keeping enough charge to show it at any point during your journey.

The absolute vast majority, like 95%+ of these situations that I come across every day and chancers that if I plug their phone into my printer it miraculously turns on with plenty of battery left.

Whilst I agree that you shouldn't tar everyone with the same brush, if you can't show your ticket during a ticket inspection, regardless of whether it's paper, CCST or digital, the outcome would be the same.

That's still 5%> of passengers who are genuinely telling the truth. Things happen! My old phone had charging issues AND lost power extremely quickly*! Many instances on my train home where I'd have to quickly scramble to get power on it (Powerbank had died and sometimes the socket just wouldn't output power)
The idea that I'd have to potentially pay £100-£150 for this is absolutely ludicrous and had it of happened to me I would've taken my business elsewhere.

* This was pretty random, a lot of the time it was pretty ok for holding battery but every now and then it'd tank extremely quickly

 

[Dewedin]

That's still 5%> of passengers who are genuinely telling the truth. Things happen! My old phone had charging issues AND lost power extremely quickly*! Many instances on my train home where I'd have to quickly scramble to get power on it (Powerbank had died and sometimes the socket just wouldn't output power)
The idea that I'd have to potentially pay £100-£150 for this is absolutely ludicrous and had it of happened to me I would've taken my business elsewhere.

* This was pretty random, a lot of the time it was pretty ok for holding battery but every now and then it'd tank extremely quickly

I don't understand why use of a defective phone/battery should be considered the railway's problem and not the user's.

 

[fishwomp]

I don't understand why use of a defective phone/battery should be considered the railway's problem and not the user's.

Because it is the railway saying there is a problem - in spite of not allowing the solution. The solution can be any of:
* Guard allows / enables charging
* Proof of ticket after the event cancels any penalty
* Guard looks up ticket (credit card shown, surname given, if traveling by the company that ticket was bought with that should be easy)

None of these options has any fraud implication.

I really am stumped for words here.

 

[AdamWW]

Because it is the railway saying there is a problem - in spite of not allowing the solution. The solution can be any of:
* Guard allows / enables charging

I'm pretty sure that this one isn't unusual. Though not something one has a right to.

 

[pdq]

Providing passengers with basic charging facilities at the point of ticket inspection would soon call the bluff of the fare chancers who use it as a convenient excuse. I'd like to see how their demeanour changes when given the opportunity to get the phone on. I suspect many of the phones are working all along! Those whose phones really have packed up would equally be grateful for the means to show their ticket.

 

[KNN]

Providing passengers with basic charging facilities at the point of ticket inspection would soon call the bluff of the fare chancers who use it as a convenient excuse. I'd like to see how their demeanour changes when given the opportunity to get the phone on. I suspect many of the phones are working all along! Those whose phones really have packed up would equally be grateful for the means to show their ticket.

And isn't that the point, the rules are designed for people who are lying about having a ticket. Some people on here want to punish someone for being disorganised just as harshly.

 

[Dave_D]

I have to admit to being in the ‘it’s your responsibility brigade’

I have used mobile phone since 1989 every single day and on only five occasions has the phone died on me unexpectedly.

Four of those occasions the phone worked perfectly, as soon as I plugged it into the charger.

One occasion the phone literally died and could never be powered up again.

I think there is some room for compromise.

Firstly, special warning that needs to be confirmed before the sale of each ticket to say that it is the passengers responsibility.

Is it beyond the realms of technology, to allow anyone given a prosecution or penalty fare to have it reduced to, perhaps £20, providing they subsequently uploaded ticket/railcard that would’ve been valid at the time?

This would still give an incentive for people to keep their phones or devices charged or to print back up tickets but not unreasonably penalised anyone that is unfortunate enough to be unable to show them under an electronic device.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Apart from this if you're not traveloing with ScotRail there are very few "Mobile Tickets" so if you have a dodgy phone print the ticket.