Phone died on arriving train station - Travel incident report

[Nomad30]

Hi all,
On Sat 19/10 I was travelling back from Manchester Picadilly to Leeds, my phone died as I got off the train at Leeds station (ticket was scanned on the train). Instead of charging my phone for me so I can scan the ticket and be on my way they decided to take my details and was advised I will receive a letter in the post. I gave all the correct details and have now downloaded and saved the tickets on my phone. My question is what can I expect to happen next? Shall I e-mail them with all of the information? or wait until I receive a letter from them?

 

[jfollows]

Welcome!
Wait for them to write to you.
Be aware that being unable to show a valid ticket is an offence in itself, even if you have a valid ticket. So wait to see the content of their letter and respond to it. Feel free to post it and your proposed reply here for advice before sending.

 

[Nomad30]

Welcome!
Wait for them to write to you.
Be aware that being unable to show a valid ticket is an offence in itself, even if you have a valid ticket. So wait to see the content of their letter and respond to it. Feel free to post it and your proposed reply here for advice before sending.

Hi j, thanks I will wait for their letter. Do you know usually how long it takes for their letter to arrive? I've never been in this situation.

 

[jfollows]

Hi j, thanks I will wait for their letter. Do you know usually how long it takes for their letter to arrive? I've never been in this situation.

It’s likely a number of weeks, so don’t panic if you don’t get anything immediately.
In the meantime you could read the forum for similar cases, the process & their outcomes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an idea, the likely outcome is to have to pay, as an out of court settlement, an administrative fee of £100-150 plus the cost of an Anytime (Day) Single for the journey you made. Unfortunately what you already paid isn't taken into consideration.

Having had a nose at the fares (Anytime Day Single is £28.10), I'd start planning to ensure you can pay around £130-180 at fairly short notice to make the issue go away.

 

[Nomad30]

As an idea, the likely outcome is to have to pay, as an out of court settlement, an administrative fee of £100-150 plus the cost of an Anytime (Day) Single for the journey you made. Unfortunately what you already paid isn't taken into consideration.

Having had a nose at the fares (Anytime Day Single is £28.10), I'd start planning to ensure you can pay around £130-180 at fairly short notice to make the issue go away.

So I will have to pay even if I have evidence that I purchased a ticket for that journey?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So I will have to pay even if I have evidence that I purchased a ticket for that journey?

Yes. The requirement is that you both purchased a ticket and are able to produce it throughout the journey, i.e. until you have left the station at the destination. Keeping your phone charged is your responsibility; perhaps in future you may want to consider carrying a power bank or charger (TPE trains have sockets you can plug into). Or if you see your battery going low put your phone in flight mode, which will mean not using it for other purposes but will make even 1% of battery last hours.

 

[island]

So I will have to pay even if I have evidence that I purchased a ticket for that journey?

Yes. The requirement is to be able to produce the ticket upon request. For all they know, you could have given the ticket to someone else and they could have used it, while you came up with the story about your phone dying.

 

[Nomad30]

Yes. The requirement is that you both purchased a ticket and are able to produce it throughout the journey, i.e. until you have left the station at the destination. Keeping your phone charged is your responsibility; perhaps in future you may want to consider carrying a power bank or charger (TPE trains have sockets you can plug into). Or if you see your battery going low put your phone in flight mode, which will mean not using it for other purposes but will make even 1% of battery last hours.

Ok thanks.

 

[Haywain]

Instead of charging my phone for me so I can scan the ticket and be on my way

I'm afraid a flat phone battery is not the railway's problem, and is something you need to avoid.

I gave all the correct details and have now downloaded and saved the tickets on my phone.

So it wasn't simply a matter of showing the ticket?

 

[RPI]

When you get the letter then send any tickets that you have, unfortunately, technically you need to be able to show your valid ticket at the time, some TOC's will allow you one or two instances a year where you can produce your ticket later and just get a warning (though it isn't advertised), sadly, I don't believe Northern are one of those TOC's

 

[Peter0124]

Do any guards allow people to charge their phones for a few minutes if their phone is dead (and they only realise as the guard comes), or do they just penalty fare regardless?

 

[6Gman]

Do any guards allow people to charge their phones for a few minutes if their phone is dead (and they only realise as the guard comes), or do they just penalty fare regardless?

I believe we have seen examples on this Forum of "get your phone plugged in and I'll check on the way back" but solely at their discretion.

 

[Nomad30]

Yes. The requirement is to be able to produce the ticket upon request. For all they know, you could have given the ticket to someone else and they could have used it, while you came up with the story about your phone

Do any guards allow people to charge their phones for a few minutes if their phone is dead (and they only realise as the guard comes), or do they just penalty fare regardless?

The guard at the barriers pointed me towards some staff and told me they’ll charge it for you when I told them they weren’t interested and immediately asked for my details almost as if they were excited about giving me a travel incident report

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2024 ==

Hang on, surely this is outrageous?

The railway is actively encouraging people to buy tickets that are intended to be shown on electronic devices. Then, when a device needs a charge, they go the whole nine yards of out of court settlement plus the full fare for the journey. The railways knows, or can reasonably be expected to know, that some devices will lose charge during the course of normal journeys.

I think we can safely say that every single railway station in the country has an electric socket that the phone can be plugged into for a few minutes.

The "produce a valid ticket on demand" principle does not demand instant compliance. In the paper world a reasonable amount of time is always permitted for the passenger to find the ticket, get it out of the wallet and look through what may be one of several coupons to find the correct document. So why is a few minutes to plug in a phone and get the ticket up not allowed?

I do not see why this should be at anyone's discretion. If the passenger has a ticket, they should be given a fair chance to show it if their device has lost charge.

If it were me, I would be objecting in the strongest possible terms.

That’s what I thought as well I tried to persuade them but they weren’t interested at all in charging it for me and were very keen to take my details for a TIR.

 

[KirkstallOne]

I would wait and see what Northern says. After witnessing Northern prosecute dozens of cases the other week, many started with 'requests to pay the fare only' so hopefully if the OP supplies the evidence that he bought a ticket then they *may* show some discretion.

I fully agree that it seems outrageous to not give the passenger 5 mins to charge their phone given they were stuck at the Leeds ticket barrier, there was no rush.

 

[Hadders]

Moderator Note - to keep this thread focussed on helping @Nomad30 with their specific case I have moved the general discussion about what should happen when you are unable to show a ticket due to a phone running out of battery to a separate thread:

Discussion About What Should Happen if Unable to Show a Ticket Due to Phone Running Out of Charge

Moderator Note - split from: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/phone-died-on-arriving-train-station-travel-incident-report.276001/#post-7000996 Hang on, surely this is outrageous? The railway is actively encouraging people to buy tickets that are intended to be shown on electronic devices...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Nomad30]

Just realised the train I was on was TransPennine express and the staff member who took my details was northern rail, will this confuse things?

 

[AlterEgo]

Just realised the train I was on was TransPennine express and the staff member who took my details was northern rail, will this confuse things?

No.

 

[Nomad30]

No.

Thanks very much.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2024 ==

I also wasn't given any document or any printout, does this affect anything? staff took my details and then let me through the barriers.

 

[Nomad30]

Question following on from my previous thread. The barrier staff took my details but did not give a slip or a printout, does this affect anything? will it delay me getting a letter? starting to get anxious.

 

[WesternLancer]

Question following on from my previous thread. The barrier staff took my details but did not give a slip or a printout, does this affect anything? will it delay me getting a letter? starting to get anxious.

I don’t think they are required to give you any paperwork. Doubt it has any impact on how long it takes them to get in touch with you.

 

[azOOOOOma]

Do any guards allow people to charge their phones for a few minutes if their phone is dead (and they only realise as the guard comes), or do they just penalty fare regardless?

I don’t - because most of the time they can’t ‘find’ the ticket even when the phone receives a charge.

 

[Hadders]

I don’t - because most of the time they can’t ‘find’ the ticket even when the phone receives a charge.

On a long distance train, if someone can't find a paper ticket during a ticket inspection I've often seen the guard say 'I'll come vack to you in a few minutes'. And they usually do once they get to the end of the carriage.

It would be good customer service to afford someone the same level of service if their phone had died. Come back to them in a couple of minutes time giving them a short time to charge the phone.

 

[azOOOOOma]

If they don’t have a charger, then what?

 

[John R]

If they don’t have a charger, then what?

Then they aren’t able to show the ticket and get dealt with accordingly.

What do you expect a member of revenue staff to do on a busy train of 500+ people? Go through doling out leads and chargers to anyone saying their phone is dead (most of whom based on experience of those who encounter this situation daily appear to be trying it on), making a note of them, then going back (hopefully they haven’t got off at the next stop), to recover the leads and chargers. I suspect they would be replacing leads and chargers on a very regular basis. And who is going to pay for those?

 

[Hadders]

If they don’t have a charger, then what?

If they haven’t got a charger then it’s not your job to go round giving or getting them a charger. You should deal with them for not being able to show a ticket.

But if they have got a charger then I’d expect you to allow a couple of minutes, as you would almost certainly do for someone trying to find a paper ticket.

 

[wilbers]

What about the argument that since it WAS scanned on the train that arrived at Leeds and presumably will still show that, then the only part of the journey where the ticket couldn't be shown was from platform X that the train arrived at to the station exit? Though I suppose even if that argument is accepted its possible the admin fee could still be charged even if the ticket element then became £0.

 

[Haywain]

But if they have got a charger then I’d expect you to allow a couple of minutes,

If they have got a charger it would be reasonable to question why the phone is dead.

 

[azOOOOOma]

If they have got a charger it would be reasonable to question why the phone is dead.

Precisely.

 

[Hadders]

If they have got a charger it would be reasonable to question why the phone is dead.

Precisely.

They might have a charger but the plug sockets ont he train might be in use or not working - it does happen, especially on the Class 91s