Class 379 Miscellanea

[O L Leigh]

Last week a set was swapped over at Bishops Stortford because the relief driver didn't sign them, so a 317 was quickly brought out of the sidings and did a couple of trips. 379 was then brought back out of the sidings and carried on.

*Raises hand*

O L Leigh

 

[STN commuter]

I can see all the peak hour Lynn trains being 379's.

The 379's will not go onto Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn services until December. The only planned changes between now and December is the withdrawal of 317's on Stansted services.

It looks like the 317's are being withdrawn on the airport service in order of unpleasantness - I haven't been on a 317/5 or 317/8 to and from the airport in a week or two, there are a few 317/6 still in use, but the services not operated by the 379's appear to be now largely serviced by the 317/7's, which is logical.

 

[Skimble19]

*Raises hand*

O L Leigh

Ahh, when are you going to be let onto the most lit up trains in the country?

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

It looks like the 317's are being withdrawn on the airport service in order of unpleasantness - I haven't been on a 317/5 or 317/8 to and from the airport in a week or two, there are a few 317/6 still in use, but the services not operated by the 379's appear to be now largely serviced by the 317/7's, which is logical.

It does appear that Ilford have finally got it right (in the end!) and most Stansted Express services not worked by 379's are indeed worked by 317/7's. However, 317882, 884, 885 & 889 have been noted working Stansted Express services very recently. The 317/5's still work the slow service to the airport.

 

[317666]

I've noticed that suddenly most of the 317s to serve Cambridge are /6s, and that a lot of these services are now formed of two units. Before then, the most common subclass at Cambridge from my experience were the /8s. Especially 317890 (PEST :-x)

 

[jopsuk]

Having missed a slow Cambridge service by seconds at Broxbourne last night, I saw several services pass at speed- the 379s really are a heck of a lot quieter flying through. Much quieter motors and they must be much better on the track- the 317 service that came through made everything shake rather more.

 

[Flywaver]

Tottenham Flyer get your coat! There is x2 379 on 0725 arrival at Cambridge today. Passed it at Elsenham

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Tottenham Flyer get your coat! There is x2 379 on 0725 arrival at Cambridge today. Passed it at Elsenham

So I hear. Apparently it's for one round only though....

 

[jopsuk]

formed the 0748 back to London. Seems a lot smoother ride from the inside than the 317s.

 

[STN commuter]

I've noticed that suddenly most of the 317s to serve Cambridge are /6s, and that a lot of these services are now formed of two units. Before then, the most common subclass at Cambridge from my experience were the /8s. Especially 317890 (PEST :-x)

The 317/6 units are being repatriated from STEX service as the 379's are introduced.

Ironically they were originally destined for Bishops Stortford/Cambridge services many years ago when they were refurbed from 317/2 units, so they are just going back where they belong
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 317/5's still work the slow service to the airport.

They are ALL slow, it's just that the stoppers are slower :cry:

You can tell I have been commuting for too long (since 1978 from Liverpool Street), I remember when the 322's were introduced on airport service, most were non stop, and the scheduled journey time was a genuine 41 minutes (unlike the propaganda time today "average 46 minutes" yeah, right) and they would frequently do it in 37/38 minutes :eek:

 

[Flywaver]

You are right STN commuter!
I was based at Bishops Stortford in the mid 90s and i did one trip in 29mins on the Up but that was non stop. As 2359 never called at Tottenham Hale.
The 322s got knackered in the end. But we always had great runs.

 

[notadriver]

It's a shame they can't re-signal/realign the track to allow 100 mph running particularly between Tottenham Hale and Broxbourne.

 

[Flywaver]

100mph is totally pointless.Way too much traffic. Too many crossings and too many stations. Understandable if four track running. I remember a short 90 stretch from Broxbourne to Neutral section at Roydon but other than that 80 is sufficient. The 379s will get the best running at higher speeds for longer periods Ely to Kings Lynn.

 

[notadriver]

Was just looking at the Sectional Appendix. Most of it seems to be 80/85. Just trying to think of a way of speeding of Stansted Expresses.

 

[O L Leigh]

As Flywaver said, by getting the slow traffic out of the way.

O L Leigh

 

[STN commuter]

It's a shame they can't re-signal/realign the track to allow 100 mph running particularly between Tottenham Hale and Broxbourne.

Most of the time is lost between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It looks like the 317's are being withdrawn on the airport service in order of unpleasantness - I haven't been on a 317/5 or 317/8 to and from the airport in a week or two, there are a few 317/6 still in use, but the services not operated by the 379's appear to be now largely serviced by the 317/7's, which is logical.

I should have kept my mouth shut - I got a 317/8 on the 1655 ex LST home this evening :cry:

 

[O L Leigh]

Most of the time is lost between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street

With respect, no it isn't.

On the "down", the StanEx leaves Liv St with a clear track ahead of it and is timetabled to take 12 minutes to reach Tottenham Hale. There really isn't any time lost during this phase. Likewise on the "up", once the StanEx is in the platform at Tottenham Hale whatever service was running ahead of it will clear the line quickly and not cause delays to the following StanEx. Granted there are times when a late running Chingford train will result in a StanEx being held on the cord between Coppermill and Clapton Junctions and some StanEx services are timetabled to follow a slow train from the Seven Sisters line into Liv St, but most are unimpeded.

Where the time savings can be made are further down the line.

On the "down" the StanEx usually finds itself behind something slower and time is built-in to allow for this. It's usually on approach to Broxbourne when following Hertfords or slow Airports (from Stratford), or Bishops Stortford when following a Cambridge. All StanEx runs on the "down" have an additional 2 minutes time between Harlow and Bishops Stortford so that the crossings at Sawbridgeworth and Spellbrook can be synchronised with trains on the "up", and some have up to 4 additional minutes. On the "up" it's usually somewhere around Cheshunt where the slower services are caught. Provided it's an "up" Cambridge it's not too bad but a late-running "up" Hertford can really cause problems.

We know all about this and can "time" a service to minimise the impact of it. However, there isn't much that can be done to accelerate the service when the StanEx has to share the tracks with so many other services. It's pointless trying to increase the linespeed while this situation exists as we can't even make full use of the existing linespeeds. If I've stopped at Harlow Town on the "down" I will only get the train up to 65mph and then coast from the river bridge north of Sawbridgeworth so that the speed bleeds away until I'm down to 45mph for the restriction through Bishops Stortford. This keeps me perfectly to time and uses up the 2 additional minutes almost to the second and also means I rarely get stopped for Sawbridgeworth or Spellbrook crossings. As Flywaver has already said we could massively accelerate the service now if only we could get a clear run. Increasing the linespeed will make no difference at all.

O L Leigh

 

[31A]

You will find that Class 379s will enter service on a regular basis on Cambridge - Liv St services from Monday morning (13/06). There should be 2 pairs and a single running about.

31A (Soon to be 55F)

 

[O L Leigh]

Has the GSM-R been fixed then...? Heavens!!

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

which services will those operate then?

 

[STN commuter]

With respect, no it isn't.

On the "down", the StanEx leaves Liv St with a clear track ahead of it and is timetabled to take 12 minutes to reach Tottenham Hale. There really isn't any time lost during this phase. Likewise on the "up", once the StanEx is in the platform at Tottenham Hale whatever service was running ahead of it will clear the line quickly and not cause delays to the following StanEx. Granted there are times when a late running Chingford train will result in a StanEx being held on the cord between Coppermill and Clapton Junctions and some StanEx services are timetabled to follow a slow train from the Seven Sisters line into Liv St, but most are unimpeded.

Where the time savings can be made are further down the line.

On the "down" the StanEx usually finds itself behind something slower and time is built-in to allow for this. It's usually on approach to Broxbourne when following Hertfords or slow Airports (from Stratford), or Bishops Stortford when following a Cambridge. All StanEx runs on the "down" have an additional 2 minutes time between Harlow and Bishops Stortford so that the crossings at Sawbridgeworth and Spellbrook can be synchronised with trains on the "up", and some have up to 4 additional minutes. On the "up" it's usually somewhere around Cheshunt where the slower services are caught. Provided it's an "up" Cambridge it's not too bad but a late-running "up" Hertford can really cause problems.

We know all about this and can "time" a service to minimise the impact of it. However, there isn't much that can be done to accelerate the service when the StanEx has to share the tracks with so many other services. It's pointless trying to increase the linespeed while this situation exists as we can't even make full use of the existing linespeeds. If I've stopped at Harlow Town on the "down" I will only get the train up to 65mph and then coast from the river bridge north of Sawbridgeworth so that the speed bleeds away until I'm down to 45mph for the restriction through Bishops Stortford. This keeps me perfectly to time and uses up the 2 additional minutes almost to the second and also means I rarely get stopped for Sawbridgeworth or Spellbrook crossings. As Flywaver has already said we could massively accelerate the service now if only we could get a clear run. Increasing the linespeed will make no difference at all.

O L Leigh

'Downs' are indeed mostly timetabled at 12 minutes.

By quoting 'Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street', I was referencing the 'up' services.

My morning train is the 0615 ex SSD. It is timetabled at 16 minutes TH to LivST, but frequently is nearer 20. One of the worst trains in the morning peak is the 0700 ex SSD which is timetabled at 21 minutes for that leg!

My post and reference was really following on from my earlier thread about how the journey time has stretched over the years - in the days when the StEx used to be timetabled at 41 minutes and regularly did it in 38-39, the LivSt to TH leg was timetabled at around 8 minutes, so has stretched by around 50%, to near 100% in some cases.

In relative terms (i.e. the distance between TH and Liv St is probably less than 20% of the StEx route, but with some services can take around 35% of the total journey time) this is a massive increase.

As I mentioned earlier, the propaganda says average journey time is 46 minutes (how come they have not been censured for that blatant porkie?), in reality it is between 52 and 59 minutes depending on the service.

I do however totally agree that this is largely down to extra traffic on the line, which has grown considerably over the years, and must now be pretty much at capacity.

There have been many versions of the timetable over the last 15 years or so since the number of total services on the line were increased, and there have been many absolute scheduling howlers, such as where the StEx left LivSt right behind slow stopping services.

In NEx's defence, given the constraints of too many trains going in and out of LivSt at peak times to ever be able to go back to the heady days of 41 minute StEx services, the current version of the timetable is probably the best there has ever been regarding scheduling fast and slow services in relation to each other. The StEx services went through an absolutely diabolical period of timekeeping in the five years or so after the Hatfield crash, and when the timetable was radically altered to put Stortford and Harlow stops in, then going to the 15 minute timetable, hardly any StEx services ran to timetable.

As you mention, there is 'padding' built in to the working timetable, but sadly part of this is probably to allow buffer time so the PPM figures do not result in financial penalty.

Acts of God, scheduled maintenance overruns and plagues of locusts apart, the services generally run pretty much to timetable these days - (although StEx still has pretty much the worst timekeeping statistics of all the services at LivSt).

 

[Aictos]

Pardon me for asking but why are there slow Stansted Express services calling practically everywhere between Stansted and London Stratford when it's supposed to be a premier airport service, the fast Stansted Express services are perfect in that they are limited stops only stopping at Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale.

Yes the slow Stansted Express services may only be a hourly service at the moment but passengers requiring the stops on that service could change at Bishops Stortford and use the Bishops Stortford services towards Stratford.

Why not withdraw the slow Stansteds and instead use the pathing now available to improve the pathing of the remaining West Anglia services, any one wanting to join the Stansted could do so at Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale or at the terminus of Liverpool Street and Stansted.

 

[jopsuk]

I think that's on the plan for the December 2011 timetable...

 

[STN commuter]

Pardon me for asking but why are there slow Stansted Express services calling practically everywhere between Stansted and London Stratford when it's supposed to be a premier airport service, the fast Stansted Express services are perfect in that they are limited stops only stopping at Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale.

Yes the slow Stansted Express services may only be a hourly service at the moment but passengers requiring the stops on that service could change at Bishops Stortford and use the Bishops Stortford services towards Stratford.

Why not withdraw the slow Stansteds and instead use the pathing now available to improve the pathing of the remaining West Anglia services, any one wanting to join the Stansted could do so at Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale or at the terminus of Liverpool Street and Stansted.

For the sake of accuracy, pretty much all of the 'fast' (don't start me on that one again) services have at least Bishops Stortford or Harlow Town stops in, some have both, and some of the morning peak 'up' services have four stops in apart from Tottenham Hale. Not exactly 'fast'.

As I understand it the Stratford - SSD service is a fill in to connect Stratford and intermediate stations to the airport and is not, nor has ever to my knowledge, been branded as a 'Stansted Express'.

Rumour has it it was originally also started as a service to get airport workers to and from the airport, but I don't know if this is fact.

 

[O L Leigh]

By quoting 'Tottenham Hale to Liverpool Street', I was referencing the 'up' services.

I do appreciate that. However, I wanted to give the complete picture of where the time gets added.

My post and reference was really following on from my earlier thread about how the journey time has stretched over the years - in the days when the StEx used to be timetabled at 41 minutes and regularly did it in 38-39, the LivSt to TH leg was timetabled at around 8 minutes, so has stretched by around 50%, to near 100% in some cases.

8 minutes...!!! How in god's name did they manage that? It's timetabled for 12 minutes because it takes 12 minutes. hock:

In relative terms (i.e. the distance between TH and Liv St is probably less than 20% of the StEx route, but with some services can take around 35% of the total journey time) this is a massive increase.

My former point notwithstanding, there really isn't anything much that can be done about this section of the route. It's busy and the linespeed is generally low. Even if you diverted them via Stratford it would probably just add time as it's a longer way around and the linespeed between Coppermill Junction and Stratford is also low.

As I mentioned earlier, the propaganda says average journey time is 46 minutes (how come they have not been censured for that blatant porkie?), in reality it is between 52 and 59 minutes depending on the service.

Yes some are slower than the quoted average journey time, but most services are indeed timetabled to take around 46 minutes.

I do however totally agree that this is largely down to extra traffic on the line, which has grown considerably over the years, and must now be pretty much at capacity.

Yup. There aren't many gaps left south of Broxbourne and yet there are still plans to increase the service. It seems that the Southbury loop is going to have to start taking up the slack, which is probably the reason why the Hertfords will eventually start going that way again.

As you mention, there is 'padding' built in to the working timetable, but sadly part of this is probably to allow buffer time so the PPM figures do not result in financial penalty.

Not really, no. It's there mostly to prevent you running into the back of the slower service ahead. Even by "sand-bagging" between Harlow and Bishops Stortford you really only get there just after the slower train ahead has pushed off.

Acts of God, scheduled maintenance overruns and plagues of locusts apart, the services generally run pretty much to timetable these days - (although StEx still has pretty much the worst timekeeping statistics of all the services at LivSt).

The StanEx is the most vulnerable service to late arrivals as a consequence of delays to other services, but they usually recover pretty quickly due to the generous amount of time at each end. The WA division's performance as a whole has been pretty good and usually outperforms the GE/Mainline side.

Pardon me for asking but why are there slow Stansted Express services calling practically everywhere between Stansted and London Stratford when it's supposed to be a premier airport service, the fast Stansted Express services are perfect in that they are limited stops only stopping at Bishops Stortford and Tottenham Hale.

It's not a Stansted Express service and is not branded as such. There was a time when the PIS announced it as such but that was corrected pretty quickly. However, it is a very popular and well-used service, not so much between Stratford and the airport but it provides an additional slow service north of Broxbourne and a good link with Stratford.

For the sake of accuracy, pretty much all of the 'fast' (don't start me on that one again) services have at least Bishops Stortford or Harlow Town stops in, some have both, and some of the morning peak 'up' services have four stops in apart from Tottenham Hale. Not exactly 'fast'.

Yes, that is unfortunate. However, it is necessary to provide some relief to the Hertfords at that time of the morning. Very often you're full and standing even before you've made it off the branch and it would be impossible for everyone waiting along the Lea Valley to fit in. Not that it would stop them trying. Even with the assistance of the additional stops on the StanEx those Hertfords can get pretty cosy.

O L Leigh

 

[Kingfisher200262]

These are great posts... I hope the GAF bidders are reading as they might learn more than they can get from any data room in Marsham Street!

In your view, is there anything that could be done to speed up the journey time between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street?

 

[jopsuk]

dig a tunnel... go straight between the two rather than twisting through a twin track section with a tunnel and a station (not served by trains that call at Tottenham Hale) followed by a not-very-straight viaduct through east London.

Just guessing, but I reckon that without such drastic actions, OL Leigh's more considered answer is going to be "no".

 

[Aictos]

If in the December 2011 timetable, as it looks like Hertford has a half hourly service to and from London would they be able to be fitted in around the existing Chingford and Enfield Town services if they get diverted full time to use the Southbury Loop and Seven Sisters into Liverpool Street?

Or would it be better to alternate the Hertfords so the xx09s go via Seven Sisters and the xx39s go via Tottenham Hale?

********************************************

Will the Hertfords ever be increased to a 20 minute frequency like the FCC Hertfords and how would this be possible if at all?

Between 09:33 and 17:33 between Monday to Friday, FCCs depart Hertford for Moorgate at xx:13, xx:33 and xx:53.

NXEA could time their services if only possible to depart Hertford for Liverpool Street at xx:03, xx:23 and xx:43 in this same time period.

One of the 3 services could even be timed as a fast service so all stations to Broxbourne then fast to Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street which if proves to a faster service then anything FCC can present will be popular, the 07:33 FCC is very popular with passengers and leaves Hertford well loaded.

 

[87015]

You can send the Hertfords via Southbury no problem with minimal juggling for Cheshunt Jn, but there is only a need/want to do it in the peaks. Off peak it just about works with an extra train to make it half hourly into Stratford. No need for an off-peak 20 minute Hertford frequency and it wouldn't work against the half-hourly base frequency on the rest of West Anglia anyway.

Might be a better idea to cape the Hertford East branch altogether apart from some peak trains with the amount of trouble the "locals" like causing along it

 

[jon0844]

If the line is to capacity, I guess the only logical move is to make more services 12-car... but can many stations be upgraded?