Class 379 Miscellanea

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't the original plan (back when the 30 units were ordered) to operate the airport services as 12 car most of the day?

The implication being that the use on Cambridge services is very much plan B - to use up an oversupply of 379s?

 

[DjU]

Wasn't the original plan (back when the 30 units were ordered) to operate the airport services as 12 car most of the day?

The implication being that the use on Cambridge services is very much plan B - to use up an oversupply of 379s?

Thats kind of it. When ordered the intention was to move to 12 car operations all day, but I don't think the forecast growth happened (the peaks are still nice an cosy though ).

 

[jon0844]

The 317's are not planned to be used in 12 car formation on the West Anglia route.

317s don't operate in 12 car formation on FCC either, or at least not that I've seen (I have seen it when they're empty or moving around the depot). That's exclusively for 365s AFAIK.

 

[Skimble19]

317s don't operate in 12 car formation on FCC either, or at least not that I've seen (I have seen it when they're empty or moving around the depot). That's exclusively for 365s AFAIK.

You are correct Ironic really considering 317's have gangways between units and 365's don't.. then again, given the choice between FCC's 317's and a 365 I know which I'd pick..!

 

[jon0844]

I know it's probably too late now, given there will be new trains built, but if the 317s had been given the 317/6 treatment with the 365 interior (more or less), they'd be just fine. In fact, if they were given aircon, I'd have potentially favoured them over the 365s.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if only Wagn and then FCC hadn't been able to simply do a minor refresh. It's fair to say the trains will be cascaded somewhere when/if FCC no longer need them, so imagine if they'd been transformed in the early 2000s instead of new paint, carpet and seat covers.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

I know it's probably too late now, given there will be new trains built, but if the 317s had been given the 317/6 treatment with the 365 interior (more or less), they'd be just fine. In fact, if they were given aircon, I'd have potentially favoured them over the 365s.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if only Wagn and then FCC hadn't been able to simply do a minor refresh. It's fair to say the trains will be cascaded somewhere when/if FCC no longer need them, so imagine if they'd been transformed in the early 2000s instead of new paint, carpet and seat covers.

Retro-fitting air con onto Mk III derivative EMUs is no easy task as WAGN found with the 317/7s, which was a total disaster.

This does not bode well for "The Adonis Plan", which is to upgrade 319s and cascade them to Thames Valley and North West Triangle services.

WAGN's refurbisher for 317/7 chose a roof mounted air con option. I think I would have gone for an underframe mounted solution as per loco hauled Mk IIIs, but this would have been impossible for the motor car as there's no space. So, a dilemma... which is better, a successful air con fitment on three of four cars, or one that is a failure on all four cars? Think I'd go for fitting 3/4 successfully.

 

[jon0844]

Ah, that explains why I boarded a 317/7 and found water on the table and down the wall. I wonder if the pipework to drain the extracted fluid was finding its way back inside?

I assumed someone had just spilled/sprayed water.

Surely the system could work if the windows were all closed? On my train they were nearly all open. So, the aircon has to work a billion times harder and is always going to be a total disaster. How the **** could both the TOC and the company doing the work not realise that after spending a LOT of money to presumably fit it, changing the windows was ignored?

At the VERY LEAST, why not put stickers on every single hopper vent to say 'keep closed except in emergency'?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Ah, that explains why I boarded a 317/7 and found water on the table and down the wall. I wonder if the pipework to drain the extracted fluid was finding its way back inside?

I assumed someone had just spilled/sprayed water.

Surely the system could work if the windows were all closed? On my train they were nearly all open. So, the aircon has to work a billion times harder and is always going to be a total disaster. How the **** could both the TOC and the company doing the work not realise that after spending a LOT of money to presumably fit it, changing the windows was ignored?

At the VERY LEAST, why not put stickers on every single hopper vent to say 'keep closed except in emergency'?

Actually, I think in the case of this particular refurb, the air con supplier simply bit off more than they could chew taking the contract on. The system has never performed properly, windows open or windows closed (although I do agree that retaining the hoppers for uncontrolled passenger use hasn't helped matters).

 

[Nym]

This is gonna sound silly, but why not use domestic air conditioning systems? The coolant could circulate between carrages with all of the conditioning packs placed under the trailer unit, with roof mounted air con units installed in each coach?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

This is gonna sound silly, but why not use domestic air conditioning systems? The coolant could circulate between carrages with all of the conditioning packs placed under the trailer unit, with roof mounted air con units installed in each coach?

Because air con refrigerant circulates in a "closed loop" between the condenser and the evaporator and introducing jumper connectors between carriages, which could be disconnected / reconnected when splitting and joining carriages would simply not be practical.

Also, domestic air con systems would not be considered suitable to install on passenger vehicles, for a number of reasons, including fire / smoke / toxicity of materials (mainly plastics in cables and trim parts), electromagnetic compatibility, shock & vibration etc etc etc.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be suitable, I'm saying that they wouldn't be considered suitable by the powers that be.

 

[STN commuter]

Retro-fitting air con onto Mk III derivative EMUs is no easy task as WAGN found with the 317/7s, which was a total disaster

Ain't that a fact!

Plus the air operated internal doors....they are either jammed open, won't open on the button, or flap open and shut of their own accord for the whole journey.....:roll:

Surely the system could work if the windows were all closed? On my train they were nearly all open. So, the aircon has to work a billion times harder and is always going to be a total disaster. How the **** could both the TOC and the company doing the work not realise that after spending a LOT of money to presumably fit it, changing the windows was ignored?

At the VERY LEAST, why not put stickers on every single hopper vent to say 'keep closed except in emergency'?

When I get on a 317/7 at Liverpool St to go home in the evening and it is obviously one of the few that the air con actually still works, I close all the hoppers around my seat, or next to any unoccupied blocks of seats. That normally gets you a look of death from the other passengers (well, commuters, mainly), even if you explain why :roll:

Conversely, from the airport in the mornings you get as far as Bishops Stortford until the commuters get in and rip all the hoppers open, seemingly unconnected to what the outside/carriage temperature might be - it is not uncommon for someone to get on in the middle of winter with coat, scarf and gloves on, and still open the window. You then often have to sit in a howling gale all the way to Liverpool Street.

When the 317/7 stock was introduced ten years or so ago I wrote, at the time, to the then managing director of WAGN and the route director of Stansted Express suggesting that as this was happening and in warm weather the air con was attempting to chill East Anglia, which wasn't going to work, wouldn't it be a good idea to have some stickers put on the hoppers explaining that the air con wouldn't work if they were open. "What a good idea" said they, "we'll do that".

It never happened :roll:

Life is made up of little pleasures - and one that still makes me smile is when my morning train from the airport (now a 379 for the last three weeks or so) pulls into Bishops Stortford, and there are no hoppers for them to open

(with apologies to any Bishops Stortford commuters posting in this thread )

 

[captainbigun]

Retro-fitting air con onto Mk III derivative EMUs is no easy task as WAGN found with the 317/7s, which was a total disaster.

This does not bode well for "The Adonis Plan", which is to upgrade 319s and cascade them to Thames Valley and North West Triangle services.

WAGN's refurbisher for 317/7 chose a roof mounted air con option. I think I would have gone for an underframe mounted solution as per loco hauled Mk IIIs, but this would have been impossible for the motor car as there's no space. So, a dilemma... which is better, a successful air con fitment on three of four cars, or one that is a failure on all four cars? Think I'd go for fitting 3/4 successfully.

The fitment of aircon is highly restricted in that the tertiary winding on the transformer was never designed to provide power for such things. Any install will always be compromised.

 

[Nym]

And by the time you re-transformer these units, you're spending a lot of money...

 

[jon0844]

If it's always going to be tricky, making the whole system having to try and cool the whole of East Anglia is bordering on gross negligence!

Seriously, you can't expect the system to work if you make such a fundamental mistake like allowing the windows to remain open.. and not just a few, but nearly all of them (I too get on some trains where regulars open the window come rain or shine, even in the winter..).

Why bother spending any money adding aircon to the 317s when the result cannot ever be expected to work by not doing the job properly? Give the system at least a fighting chance.

If the same happens on the 319s one day, that will also be a disaster.

 

[317666]

What I find a bit ironic is that when the 317/7s were refurbished, new hopper windows were fitted to replace the old ones - why didn't they just fit non-opening ones?

 

[jon0844]

Really? That's madness!

I accept that Joe Public are often too ignorant to know that aircon needs to work in a sealed environment, but what about the people who did the work? Didn't anyone mention it at the time??!

If the windows couldn't be replaced with lockable windows, then the idea that I suggested (and it later turns out someone suggested to National Express, who agreed) about at least putting stickers on the windows should have been done immediately.

It would at least make it easier for people to ask for others to shut the window, given everyone will see from their nearest window that they should be kept shut. If anyone feels hot, they'll actually be able to ask someone to CLOSE the window - silly as it sounds to people who don't understand how aircon works.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On the FGW 166s, the emergency hoppers do have stickers explaining that they should not normally be opened because of the air conditioning, but people still just open them anyway! ( Unlike other emergency hoppers, those on the 166s do not need staff to unlock them. )

 

[jon0844]

Do they all get opened, and if they do, is it easier to ask for them to be closed on account of it helping cool the train?

If not, I stand corrected and have to accept that people will always be idiots! I hope they don't then complain about the trains being too hot! Okay, when the train is moving at speed it may feel cooler with the movement of air, but not when it's stopped or has been sitting in the sun before it gets going.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have said on many occasions that opening the vents on a Cl317/7 doesn't have the effect of cooling the outside environment but of actually heating the inside of the coach. The blast of cool air coming in at ceiling height hits the thermostats which makes the system think that the internal temperature is too low and consequently the coach heating comes on. I've explained this endlessly to people but the penny never seems to drop. You can usually find me at each end of the trip going through a Cl317/7 closing all the windows and doors to try and give the A/C a fighting chance. But the problem is that once the heating has come on in a coach it takes a while for the A/C to equalise the temperature, and it still requires the windows to be kept shut. Not unreasonably as the coach is hot it doesn't take long for the windows to be opened again.

On the subject of the windows, I have also suggested to our fleet department that the windows could easily be sealed up simply by replacing the handles with a metal spring clip. The windows by the disabled "robo-loo" are sealed in just this way.

Water on a table is probably nothing to do with the A/C as the condensers seem to be with the rest of the kit over the door vestibules. If they leak that's where the water tends to end up.

BTW, STN Commuter, no need to be so polite about your fellow travellers from a certain station. I share your sentiments and have my own issues with them too.

O L Leigh

 

[STN commuter]

I have said on many occasions that opening the vents on a Cl317/7 doesn't have the effect of cooling the outside environment but of actually heating the inside of the coach. The blast of cool air coming in at ceiling height hits the thermostats which makes the system think that the internal temperature is too low and consequently the coach heating comes on. I've explained this endlessly to people but the penny never seems to drop. You can usually find me at each end of the trip going through a Cl317/7 closing all the windows and doors to try and give the A/C a fighting chance. But the problem is that once the heating has come on in a coach it takes a while for the A/C to equalise the temperature, and it still requires the windows to be kept shut. Not unreasonably as the coach is hot it doesn't take long for the windows to be opened again.

Been there too You may as well bang your head on the wall as try to explain to people that if you shut the hoppers on a 317/7 it will cool down!

BTW, STN Commuter, no need to be so polite about your fellow travellers from a certain station. I share your sentiments and have my own issues with them too.

I'd better say no more on this subject! Let's just say no other station on the line is like it.....

O L Leigh

I'm sure our paths must have crossed O L. I used to be friendly with John Stevens, way back in the days when he was on station duty at Liv St, before he became a driver. I haven't seen him for some while, is he still around?

 

[jopsuk]

Full December 2011 weekday timetable for the West Anglia route plus loads of "comparison" documents- cute the way they claim all the services to/from Cambridge are booked 317/6.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do you mean they are showing all the services NOW are 317/6?

Cos there are clearly marked 12 car 379s from Cambridge from December...

 

[jopsuk]

all services now "3176" (as they put it in those documents)- by comparison Enfield town has some services now booked "3175" and from Decemeber "31758" (with the rest 315 apart from a couple of 3176) and hertford East mainly 3175 now, 31758 from Decemeber.

Up until this week (now 3179) the 0748 from Cambridge has definitely NOT always been "3176"- all four varients have been regular!

I notice the Stansted Airport "now" column has specific 317/7 and 317/8 allocations- how well are these adhered to?

 

[317666]

I hope some 317/5s will still make their way to Cambridge - not as loud as the /6s, but they are much more comfortable for sleeping on, after a long day in London.

That said, I have managed to fall asleep on a 315 before

Also, does anyone know what happened to the proposals to add a 3rd train per hour off-peak between CBG and LST, apparently running non-stop from Bishops Stortford to Tottenham Hale?

 

[swt_passenger]

Gotcha - thought that's what you must have meant...

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm sure our paths must have crossed O L. I used to be friendly with John Stevens, way back in the days when he was on station duty at Liv St, before he became a driver. I haven't seen him for some while, is he still around?

Quite possibly. If your regular train is the 0615 ex SSD (0623 at BIS) you might even have seen me this morning wandering up the unit in P3.

John is still around but hasn't driven a train in a while. I believe he's up at Control at the moment but could be wrong.

O L Leigh

 

[jopsuk]

Also, does anyone know what happened to the proposals to add a 3rd train per hour off-peak between CBG and LST, apparently running non-stop from Bishops Stortford to Tottenham Hale?

Seem to have gone the same way as the Ely-Airport service, though some of the peak "fasts" from Cambridge are doing Bishops Stortford to Tottenham Hale non-stop.

 

[Orange Box]

Seem to have gone the same way as the Ely-Airport service, though some of the peak "fasts" from Cambridge are doing Bishops Stortford to Tottenham Hale non-stop.

Also objections from the pink door lot out of Cambridge who saw it as too much like competition, and at an hour Cambridge-Liv St with 379s it would probably have been quite popular.

 

[STN commuter]

Quite possibly. If your regular train is the 0615 ex SSD (0623 at BIS) you might even have seen me this morning wandering up the unit in P3.

John is still around but hasn't driven a train in a while. I believe he's up at Control at the moment but could be wrong.

O L Leigh

At BIS at 0623 this morning I was getting ready to put my magazine away and catch up on half an hour's sleep! Sacrilege on 379010/011 this morning, someone had turned the bugger round and the 1st class was on the front! :-x

That does ring a bell re John. He had eye problems at one time and couldn't drive, and I seem to recall he was on Control for a while then went out driving again. Amusing chap
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I notice the Stansted Airport "now" column has specific 317/7 and 317/8 allocations- how well are these adhered to?

Not very well :roll:

Seen both 317/6 and 317/5 on airport service today.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Seen both 317/6 and 317/5 on airport service today.

No 317/5's on Stansted Express services today. 317510 was on Stratford - Stansted.

The only 317/6 on Express duties was 649 coupled to 889.

All other Express services 379 or 317/7 operated, bar 317890.