Chiltern railways fare penalty

[nicolapepe]

I was travelling from Bristol to Oxford and then from Oxford to princes risborough to visit my father. There were ticket inspectors at the gate at princes risborough and once I got off the train to exit I realised I did not have my ticket on me anymore, I only had my Bristol to Oxford ticket, and I had no data on my phone to
Show proof of purchase, once I told this to the ticket inspector he said I have two options, 1 to pay a penalty fare or 2 give him my details and wait to receive a letter and explain what happened and take it from there, I asked him which he recommends and he said the latter so I agreed. However, after reading lots of things this seems to be a bad choice as it seems they may prosecute me for this even though this is the first time anything like this has happened to me. Does anyone know what could possibly happen next?

 

[WesternLancer]

I was travelling from Bristol to Oxford and then from Oxford to princes risborough to visit my father. There were ticket inspectors at the gate at princes risborough and once I got off the train to exit I realised I did not have my ticket on me anymore, I only had my Bristol to Oxford ticket, and I had no data on my phone to
Show proof of purchase, once I told this to the ticket inspector he said I have two options, 1 to pay a penalty fare or 2 give him my details and wait to receive a letter and explain what happened and take it from there, I asked him which he recommends and he said the latter so I agreed. However, after reading lots of things this seems to be a bad choice as it seems they may prosecute me for this even though this is the first time anything like this has happened to me. Does anyone know what could possibly happen next?

Sadly the former would have resolved it for £50. Not cheap but easier than the latter. Tho you will be able to avoid prosecution with help from here I strongly suspect.

Apart from being let off there and then a penalty fare is almost always the least worst option.

 

[nicolapepe]

Sadly the former would have resolved it for £50. Not cheap but easier than the latter. Tho you will be able to avoid prosecution with help from here I strongly suspect.

Apart from being let off there and then a penalty fare is almost always the least worst

Ahh I know, I should’ve just paid it there but the agent said I should do the other choice, not sure why. Is it possible when I receive the letter in a couple months time to just write back and say I’ll pay the penalty fare and that will be that? Really don’t want this to go to court etc

 

[gray1404]

I would be inclined to complain about this inspector.

The two options were:

1. Issue a penalty fare for which there is a formal 3 stage appeal procedure and you have time to pay it.

2. Report for prosecution

The way the inspector presented the first option implies that it would need paying on the spot and the second option is not fully informing the OP of what will happen.

The fact that a penalty fare was being considered means that what he should have issued.

 

[nicolapepe]

I would be inclined to complain about this inspector.

The two options were:

1. Issue a penalty fare for which there is a formal 3 stage appeal procedure and you have time to pay it.

2. Report for prosecution

The way the inspector presented the first option implies that it would need paying on the spot and the second option is not fully informing the OP of what will happen.

The fact that a penalty fare was being considered means that what he should have issued.

Yes that’s exactly what happened.

Do you think there is anything I can do to stop this from becoming an issue in regards to court and prosecution etc?

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes that’s exactly what happened.

Do you think there is anything I can do to stop this from becoming an issue in regards to court and prosecution etc?

Pretty much no sadly. You will most likely have to request an out of court settlement- which is very probable to get (even more so if you can support your story with proof of ticket payment).

See some other threads to get the idea / post your questions here to know what to expect next.

 

[nicolapepe]

Pretty much no sadly. You will most likely have to request an out of court settlement- which is very probable to get (even more so if you can support your story with proof of ticket payment).

See some other threads to get the idea / post your questions here to know what to expect next.

Ah ok, I guess I just have to wait for the letter then and shall ask what to reply once I get it! Thanks for the help

 

[Egg Centric]

While it doesn't change anything about the legal position - had you bought both tickets independently or were they bought together as part of a single itinerary from a retailer supporting splits?

 

[nicolapepe]

While it doesn't change anything about the legal position - had you bought both tickets independently or were they bought together as part of a single itinerary from a retailer supporting splits?

I bought the Bristol - oxford journey on Trainline, and the Oxford - princes risborough as a physical ticket at Oxford as it was a last minute change in where I was meeting my father and I had no data to purchase the change on Trainline. How come?

 

[WesternLancer]

Ah ok, I guess I just have to wait for the letter then and shall ask what to reply once I get it! Thanks for the help

Yes. But there are things you can do to prepare in the meantime

- look at other threads to get an idea of how these things play out

- look back through your own ticket buying records to see if any occasions you had invalid tickets because that is what the railway company will now do. If none then that is helpful for you to have records to hand if needed.

 

[nicolapepe]

Yes. But there are things you can do to prepare in the meantime

- look at other threads to get an idea of how these things play out

- look back through your own ticket buying records to see how many occasions you had invalid tickets because that is what the railway company will now do.

I have been and it’s been very helpful! And I have never purchased invalid tickets before except once in 2019 when I just paid the difference on the train and this was with GWR, this is only my 3rd time on Chiltern.

 

[WesternLancer]

I bought the Bristol - oxford journey on Trainline, and the Oxford - princes risborough as a physical ticket at Oxford as it was a last minute change in where I was meeting my father and I had no data to purchase the change on Trainline. How come?

Will you have a bank record to show that? Or did you buy with cash. Helps if you have a record ideally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

I have been and it’s been very helpful! And I have never purchased invalid tickets before except once in 2019 when I just paid the difference on the train and this was with GWR, this is only my 3rd time on Chiltern.

That’s good.

 

[Egg Centric]

I bought the Bristol - oxford journey on Trainline, and the Oxford - princes risborough as a physical ticket at Oxford as it was a last minute change in where I was meeting my father and I had no data to purchase the change on Trainline. How come?

Because, rarely, common sense applies when even with their cynical mindset they can see you're blatantly honest. Unfortunately a secondary ticket bought in a different format from a different retailer is much less likely to be persuasive with their guilty until proven innocent mindset. I'll leave you with the other replies now - was just checking to see if there might have been something unusually hopeful there!

 

[Hadders]

Chiltern are normally reasonably straightforward to deal with these days. As long as you co-operate with them I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement although this is likely to cost more than the Penalty Fare.

When the letter arrives, post a copy of it in this thread along with you draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. Do redact any personal details before uploading.

Once the matter is concluded then I would consider making a complaint about the member of staff.

 

[gray1404]

Was the inspectors body camera recording at the time of your interaction?

 

[nicolapepe]

Was the inspectors body camera recording at the time of your interaction?

I’m not sure, I hope it was though as it would surely help my case. I didn’t get any of his details either because the way he explained it I didn’t think it would be necessary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2024 ==

Chiltern are normally reasonably straightforward to deal with these days. As long as you co-operate with them I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement although this is likely to cost more than the Penalty Fare.

When the letter arrives, post a copy of it in this thread along with you draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you. Do redact any personal details before uploading.

Once the matter is concluded then I would consider making a complaint about the member of staff.

Ok I will do, is it worth to be proactive and tell them the situation etc and say I’m willing to pay the penalty fare in which I was offered. Surely because I was offered the penalty fare and mislead about it all they won’t prosecute or is that just me being naive and hopeful?

 

[some bloke]

Maybe it'll be possible to be let off rather than pay anything.

Will you have a bank record to show that? Or did you buy with cash.

Also, is it not possible for companies to check whether the relevant ticket was bought from a ticket office or machine around the relevant time?

If, say, the only purchase at the ticket office of that ticket that morning was a few minutes before your train left, that could give reasonable grounds for giving you the benefit of the doubt even though you technically failed to produce a ticket.

 

[gray1404]

I’m not sure, I hope it was though as it would surely help my case. I didn’t get any of his details either because the way he explained it I didn’t think it would be necessary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Oct 2024 ==


Ok I will do, is it worth to be proactive and tell them the situation etc and say I’m willing to pay the penalty fare in which I was offered. Surely because I was offered the penalty fare and mislead about it all they won’t prosecute or is that just me being naive and hopeful?

At the very least I would hope they would allow you to pay the amount a PF would have been, given it wasn't explained correctly, rather then a higher out of court settlement.

This inspector does need restraining on how to communicate with customers and to give them the correct information.

I would request any body cam footage separate to commenting on the interaction first.

 

[some bloke]

The station CCTV could show you buying the ticket (or at least, actions consistent with it).

How long ago did you travel? CCTV recordings may well be erased after around 30 days.

You could make a subject access request for that.

Tactfully raising the possibilities that Chiltern could check ticket purchases and CCTV could help you.

 

[nicolapepe]

At the very least I would hope they would allow you to pay the amount a PF would have been, given it wasn't explained correctly, rather then a higher out of court settlement.

This inspector does need restraining on how to communicate with customers and to give them the correct information.

I would request any body cam footage separate to commenting on the interaction first.

That’s a good idea I shall do that, I’m not even fussed if I have to pay an out of court settlement I just don’t want this to escalate further as the last thing I need is a court case etc, I wish I knew all this information prior because I wouldn’t of let the inspector convince me to choose the letter option. I just hope it can be settled quickly as well because waiting months for a letter to come is awful. Additionally I always see people saying the best thing to do is to co operate with the investigation etc, how do I do that as I am more than happy to.

 

[Hadders]

I think there are a number of things we need to think about here.

1. @nicolapepe was unable to show a valid ticket when asked to do so. This is a criminal offence and Chiltern are within their rights to persue this. Chiltern are unlikely to be interested in proof of purchase - they want to see the actual ticket.

2. Penalty Fare or Details Taken. @nicolapepe tells us that the inspector recommended having details taken as the best course of action. On face value that is poor advice but my view is it will be difficult to prove exactly what was said. We don't know if the inspector was wearing a body camera, and if they were whether it was recording or whether the camera footage was preserved. Body worn cameras are deployed primarily to record evidence of potential harm and aggresion.

If the objective is to keep this matter out of court then it's important to co-operate with Chiltern. Historically they are one of the more 'robust' train companies to deal with, although they do appear to have become more pragmatic this year. As ever, the wording of the response to Chiltern's letter will be important and in addition to the points I normally recommend are mentioned I would consider adding something about the member of staff saying that having details taken was better than a Penalty Fare.

I would not recommend asking Chiltern to check CCTV for ticket purchases. You could ask for a copy of the bodycam footage (if it exists), but due to the timelines involved it would be better to use this for a separate complaint once the matter is concluded.

@nicolapepe - when the letter from Chiltern arrives post a copy of it in this thread (but do redact any personal details) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[nicolapepe]

I think there are a number of things we need to think about here.

1. @nicolapepe was unable to show a valid ticket when asked to do so. This is a criminal offence and Chiltern are within their rights to persue this. Chiltern are unlikely to be interested in proof of purchase - they want to see the actual ticket.

2. Penalty Fare or Details Taken. @nicolapepe tells us that the inspector recommended having details taken as the best course of action. On face value that is poor advice but my view is it will be difficult to prove exactly what was said. We don't know if the inspector was wearing a body camera, and if they were whether it was recording or whether the camera footage was preserved. Body worn cameras are deployed primarily to record evidence of potential harm and aggresion.

If the objective is to keep this matter out of court then it's important to co-operate with Chiltern. Historically they are one of the more 'robust' train companies to deal with, although they do appear to have become more pragmatic this year. As ever, the wording of the response to Chiltern's letter will be important and in addition to the points I normally recommend are mentioned I would consider adding something about the member of staff saying that having details taken was better than a Penalty Fare.

I would not recommend asking Chiltern to check CCTV for ticket purchases. You could ask for a copy of the bodycam footage (if it exists), but due to the timelines involved it would be better to use this for a separate complaint once the matter is concluded.

@nicolapepe - when the letter from Chiltern arrives post a copy of it in this thread (but do redact any personal details) along with your draft reply and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

Thank you very much for the advice, I will do. Yes my objective is to keep it out of court, I’m not fussed about paying whatever it is they want I will not argue that, I just really want to keep it out of court, do you think that is likely?

 

[Hadders]

Thank you very much for the advice, I will do. Yes my objective is to keep it out of court, I’m not fussed about paying whatever it is they want I will not argue that, I just really want to keep it out of court, do you think that is likely?

While I cannot guarantee the outcome I'd be very surprised if Chiltern prosecute you. As long as you send a short, concise reply to their letter then I expect they will offer you an out of court settlement.