Gold Card discount applied in error?

[BlueLeanie]

My bad, it's 10am.

Except when there are easements to the rule!

https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/download/clientfiles/files/NR_Easements_10June2024.pdf

 

[Watershed]

I don't disagree with that, but I maintain that if you buy a railcard you need to know where and when you can use it and I struggle to understand why that view is seen as contentious.

I have just gone through the process of buying an annual season ticket on the GWR website. At no point are the conditions of Gold Cards explained, or even alluded to in any of the many terms and conditions you're linked to. Other sites may be better but I don't expect you would get any more information when buying an annual season at a ticket office, for example.

It is therefore far from obvious how, when "buying" such a Railcard, you should be expected to find out its conditions of use. If you mostly travel around the southeast and simply apply the Gold Card discount for any journeys not covered by your season ticket, it would not at all be obvious there are limits to its validity as you wouldn't usually encounter any.

It is all rather different to the usual process of buying a Railcard, where you have to tick a box signifying you have read and agree to the Railcard conditions. Indeed (for plastic/paper Railcards) you have to sign the Railcard to agree to its conditions before it becomes valid.

Putting yourself in the shoes of the average customer makes it much easier to see how ridiculous the railway's attitude is - "customers should always know and abide by the rules perfectly, but our staff and systems are allowed to get it wrong". I'm not saying that's your attitude, but it's certainly one most train companies, and an alarmingly large minority ogf staff, hold.

 

[superkopite]

As a railcard holder is it unreasonable to expect you to know where and when the railcard can be used?

Yes, very unreasonable

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2024 ==

Anyone getting a railcard has agreed to its terms and conditions. I have a network card and I am expected to know very well that it is not valid on weekdays before 9:30am or beyond Banbury northwards. If a discount does get erroneously applied, there is an expectation that I will do something to double check. Just as I check that a discount has been applied on valid tickets.

A railcard user is presumed to be a regular user (otherwise why get the railcard in the first place) and the defence that I don't know how tickets or discounts work isn't going to hold up as easily.

This type of attitude keeps rail in the dark ages. Extremely unhelpful to end users.

 

[73128]

Anyone who has even touched railway ticketing knows it is a minefield, and there are a million documented and undocumented routes. Even buying a flexible ticket often confuses people. Yes it is reasonable to expect them to know the area of validity, however when a railway accredited site tells them something it is valid, it is wholly unreasonable to expect them to even doubt it.

Why though? The railway has told the passenger this ticket is valid. For all they know there is some easement that's possibly documented somewhere deep in some document, maybe not even available to the public. Why should they have to spend their time working it our when it is the industry that is making the mistake.

It's not the railway, it's a third party website. I've overheard staff telling customers who had purchased erroneously on the Trainline, that if they had bought their ticket from a TOC website or booking office, staff are duty bound to help them, but could not with third party providers. Seemingly Trainline in particular have a habit of selling off peak tickets for journeys before they are valid.

 

[OscarH]

It's not the railway, it's a third party website. I've overheard staff telling customers who had purchased erroneously on the Trainline, that if they had bought their ticket from a TOC website or booking office, staff are duty bound to help them, but could not with third party providers. Seemingly Trainline in particular have a habit of selling off peak tickets for journeys before they are valid.

This is nonsense. Staff have a habit of making up lies like that about third parties - they are under the same requirements as TOCs, they power most of the TOC websites.

As for off peak tickets sold wrong, I think it's safe to bet in 99% of cases the issue is because the TOC has misentered the data, not the retailer actually misissuing.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

It's not the railway, it's a third party website.

How do you even define that in the (still just about) privatised age? Is “the railway” anything whose antecedents were owned by British Rail in 1990?

 

[AlterEgo]

It's not the railway, it's a third party website. I've overheard staff telling customers who had purchased erroneously on the Trainline, that if they had bought their ticket from a TOC website or booking office, staff are duty bound to help them, but could not with third party providers.

The staff are wrong.

Seemingly Trainline in particular have a habit of selling off peak tickets for journeys before they are valid.

The staff are still duty bound to help them, which in this case, is to allow travel as the ticket was purchased against a booked and contracted itinerary.

 

[AdamWW]

I don't disagree with that, but I maintain that if you buy a railcard you need to know where and when you can use it and I struggle to understand why that view is seen as contentious.

Meanwhile I struggle to understand how someone can genuinely believe that if I buy a ticket for a particular itinerary from an authorised seller having told it what railcard I hold, it's my fault if I'm sold an invalid ticket.

So you don't think a railcard holder should have some knowledge of where and when it can be used? You asked how you would be expected to know, and the very fact that you have queried it here demonstrates that my point is valid. You have chosen to reject it with something that isn't what you initially asked.

The fact that on this occasion the purchaser spotted a mistake does not in fact prove the point that railcard holders should always be capable of doing so, let alone should be expected to.

As the OP said: "Agree on all this but how would I be expected to know as an ordinary customer?"

If a discount does get erroneously applied, there is an expectation that I will do something to double check.

Is there? Why? How am I as a passenger supposed to know that it's my job not just to get everything right myself but make sure that the railway can do its job too?

 

[mikeg]

It's not the railway, it's a third party website. I've overheard staff telling customers who had purchased erroneously on the Trainline, that if they had bought their ticket from a TOC website or booking office, staff are duty bound to help them, but could not with third party providers. Seemingly Trainline in particular have a habit of selling off peak tickets for journeys before they are valid.

That's incorrect, if a site is National Rail accredited, or a Rail Appointed Travel Agent it is acting as an agent of the railway and the TOCs are obliged to accept the itinerary.

 

[BongoStar]

Is there? Why? How am I as a passenger supposed to know that it's my job not just to get everything right myself but make sure that the railway can do its job too?

That's incorrect, if a site is National Rail accredited, or a Rail Appointed Travel Agent it is acting as an agent of the railway and the TOCs are obliged to accept the itinerary.

I totally agree with what is being said. There should be no hassle for the rail passenger. However, as can be seen in the forum posts, staff at the stations/train do not hesitate to make rules on the fly.

Yes, the accredited retailer is in error; Yes, the staff has got poor training and should not have refused etc etc, but the reality on the ground is that me as a passenger is more likely to be Penalty Fared, asked to buy a new ticket, refused boarding, etc etc. The usual advise of having a cool head and buying a new ticket/paying the PF etc and then complain/appeal/demand refund is all well and good. But is it worth the hassle?

A ticket that usually costs £15 and with railcard discount comes to £10. If I get charged £9.5, I can easily overlook and any appeal will be successful. But if the system erronously issues it at £2 and then I get into hassle, the most I will get is the £10 back and a response that it was a system error. Whether its worth anyones time is up to them.