Gold Card discount applied in error?

[Leisurefirst]

Hi there,
I bought split tickets for a return journey from Paddington to Exeter St. Davids.
The site I used split at Reading and I have a Gold Card so I added that when searching.
It appears that it has applied the Gold Card discount to both the PAD to Reading and the Reading to EXD tickets, the latter erroneously if I am correct.
Am I going to have any issues onboard?
Thx.

 

[furlong]

Which website or app did you use?
What are the two fares you have paid?

- Some websites/apps (including the forum's favourite, TrainSplit) sometimes erroneously show that a discount has been applied when the amount paid indicates that actually there was no discount.
- The discount on Reading to Exeter applies when you travel via Basingstoke and Salisbury.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Which website or app did you use?
What are the two fares you have paid?

- Some websites/apps (including the forum's favourite, TrainSplit) sometimes erroneously show that a discount has been applied when the amount paid indicates that actually there was no discount.
- The discount on Reading to Exeter applies when you travel via Basingstoke and Salisbury.

TrainPal.
£82.20 for an Off-Peak Return Paddington to Reading and a Super Off-Peak Return Reading to Exeter St. Davids Route "Any Permitted" and an itinerary for direct train PAD to EXD via Bristol.
Has definitely applied the Gold Card discount to both tickets even though shouldn't for the EXD leg (shows up on both e-tickets too).

 

[bcarmicle]

I agree that that's applied the Gold Card to both legs (£23.55 + £58.65) despite it not being valid with an itinerary via Bristol. Presumably what's happened is that TrainPal has identified that there is a Gold Card discounted fare but not validated it against the itinerary.

I would imagine that so long as you are travelling on the exact trains in accordance with the itinerary against which the ticket was sold, you are legally in the clear. But GWR guards will presumably recognise that the Gold Card is not valid on that route and may try to charge you for a new ticket, and may not accept the itinerary. If you'd rather avoid any potential trouble, you could ask TrainPal for a fee-free refund referring them to the Gold Card validity map.

 

[Leisurefirst]

I agree that that's applied the Gold Card to both legs (£23.55 + £58.65) despite it not being valid with an itinerary via Bristol. Presumably what's happened is that TrainPal has identified that there is a Gold Card discounted fare but not validated it against the itinerary.

I would imagine that so long as you are travelling on the exact trains in accordance with the itinerary against which the ticket was sold, you are legally in the clear. But GWR guards will presumably recognise that the Gold Card is not valid on that route and may try to charge you for a new ticket, and may not accept the itinerary. If you'd rather avoid any potential trouble, you could ask TrainPal for a fee-free refund referring them to the Gold Card validity map.

Agree on all this but how would I be expected to know as an ordinary customer?
I have an outward itinerary but not for the return as it was booked as an "open return".
Even more strangely this fare did not appear when choosing a specific return train, only when choosing "Open Return".
The site is IMHO poor in that it doesn't tell you which tickets have the Railcard applied (or not) clearly either unlike Trainsplit.
TrainPal had a 4% money-off offer on.

 

[Haywain]

how would I be expected to know as an ordinary customer?

As a railcard holder is it unreasonable to expect you to know where and when the railcard can be used?

 

[Leisurefirst]

As a railcard holder is it unreasonable to expect you to know where and when the railcard can be used?

So if I walk up to you in a ticket office, show you a Railcard and ask for a return from x to z via y on a specific train and you sell me a ticket that's not valid that'd be my fault, would it?
I entered the Gold Card on the site to obtain a discount on the leg of any split I was entitled to it on.
As I have said, the fact TrainPal doesn't indicate which legs it has applied it to isn't great.
It was only because I thought it cheaper than expected I compared elsewhere and realised what had happened.

 

[Haywain]

So if I walk up to you in a ticket office, show you a Railcard and ask for a return from x to z via y on a specific train and you sell me a ticket that's not valid that'd be my fault, would it?

So you don't think a railcard holder should have some knowledge of where and when it can be used? You asked how you would be expected to know, and the very fact that you have queried it here demonstrates that my point is valid. You have chosen to reject it with something that isn't what you initially asked.

 

[Leisurefirst]

So you don't think a railcard holder should have some knowledge of where and when it can be used? You asked how you would be expected to know, and the very fact that you have queried it here demonstrates that my point is valid. You have chosen to reject it with something that isn't what you initially asked.

As you like.
I bought a ticket on a website from Paddington to Exeter direct splitting as per it's doing at Reading with a Railcard applied.
That it applied it to both legs was not my intention and not knowing the full price for these tickets beforehand not something I took advantage of.
For all I know, it could've just applied the discount to the first leg only as (unlike Trainsplit) it doesn't make it clear.
You do you, though.
The customer is obviously always wrong.
FWIW it actually makes me feel really uncomfortable, I'm the kind of idiot that always tells people if they've given me too much change or I've been undercharged in shops or cafés.

 

[Hadders]

If the ticket has been sold in accordance with an itinerary, and you travel in accordance with an itinerary then the ticket has to be accepted. That said, we do know that some staff might not take that view.

I'd expect a competent retailer to retrospectively assist a passenger in this situation, although whether Trainpal can be relied on to be competent when it comes to this sort of thing is open to debate.

 

[Leisurefirst]

If the ticket has been sold in accordance with an itinerary, and you travel in accordance with an itinerary then the ticket has to be accepted. That said, we do know that some staff might not take that view.

I'd expect a competent retailer to retrospectively assist a passenger in this situation, although whether Trainpal can be relied on to be competent when it comes to this sort of thing is open to debate.

Thanks.
Quite

 

[RJ]

It is a weakness with certain discounts that the only check the powers that be have put in is if the origin and destination stations are covered by the discount. Some customers have clocked on and get them issued at ticket offices and don't like it when clerks who are wise to it don't sell them!

 

[Adam Williams]

Some websites/apps (including the forum's favourite, TrainSplit) sometimes erroneously show that a discount has been applied when the amount paid indicates that actually there was no discount.

Can you send a screenshot so we can take a look at this? I can see a ticket in the issue tracker related to this, but it was closed back in July so I don't think it should happen anymore.

 

[OscarH]

It is a weakness with certain discounts that the only check the powers that be have put in is if the origin and destination stations are covered by the discount. Some customers have clocked on and get them issued at ticket offices and don't like it when clerks who are wise to it don't sell them!

A limitation for TVMs and ticket offices selling without an itinerary - assuming there's no data anomaly, an online retailer like TrainPal issuing an itinerary without checking is very concerning, and poor on their part

 

[Benjwri]

So you don't think a railcard holder should have some knowledge of where and when it can be used? You asked how you would be expected to know, and the very fact that you have queried it here demonstrates that my point is valid. You have chosen to reject it with something that isn't what you initially asked.

It’s exactly this attitude that makes the railway so unfriendly to customers. Sure on the face of it it’s fairly simple, but as with everything there are a host of caveats and easements. If the railway wants to play those silly games it should provide the tools to understand them.

Very few people have even a slight proper idea of how ticketing works on the railway because it so complicated, and the railway makes no attempt to make learning it even resemble easy. So when a website which is ‘National Rail accredited’ tells them it is valid, it is not the slightest bit unreasonable to believe that website over what understanding they do have.

Of course all this is without considering actual rights given the ticket was sold by the website which that knowledge of the railcard.

 

[redreni]

I don't think the OP could be expected to know that he's been erroneously undercharged in these circumstances, so had he not taken to the internet and left a trail of evidence demonstrating that he does know, I would say he could have relied on the itinerary and tickets he was sold.

 

[richw]

I don't think the OP could be expected to know that he's been erroneously undercharged in these circumstances, so had he not taken to the internet and left a trail of evidence demonstrating that he does know, I would say he could have relied on the itinerary and tickets he was sold.

Agreed, in these circumstances you have to stay quiet and plead ignorance to have any such case.

With the discount the issued ticket is only valid via Basingstoke and Salisbury routing. The itinerary being issued muddies things a bit as a contract has been entered via the routing in his itinerary.

 

[infobleep]

Agree on all this but how would I be expected to know as an ordinary customer?
I have an outward itinerary but not for the return as it was booked as an "open return".
Even more strangely this fare did not appear when choosing a specific return train, only when choosing "Open Return".
The site is IMHO poor in that it doesn't tell you which tickets have the Railcard applied (or not) clearly either unlike Trainsplit.
TrainPal had a 4% money-off offer on.

So what are you going to do? People have advised you can follow the itinerary but you have no return itinerary, which you can follow.

 

[richw]

So what are you going to do? People have advised you can follow the itinerary but you have no return itinerary, which you can follow.

Without a return itinerary he’d have to go the valid routing.

 

[TUC]

So you don't think a railcard holder should have some knowledge of where and when it can be used? You asked how you would be expected to know, and the very fact that you have queried it here demonstrates that my point is valid. You have chosen to reject it with something that isn't what you initially asked.

Frankly, isn't it up to ticket office staff to know validity, and for those programming TVMs and ticketing sites to know validity? A customer who has put the appropriate information in has no reason to double check that a machine or member of staff has done what they should.

 

[Haywain]

Frankly, isn't it up to ticket office staff to know validity, and for those programming TVMs and ticketing sites to know validity?

I don't disagree with that, but I maintain that if you buy a railcard you need to know where and when you can use it and I struggle to understand why that view is seen as contentious.

 

[BongoStar]

Anyone getting a railcard has agreed to its terms and conditions. I have a network card and I am expected to know very well that it is not valid on weekdays before 9:30am or beyond Banbury northwards. If a discount does get erroneously applied, there is an expectation that I will do something to double check. Just as I check that a discount has been applied on valid tickets.

A railcard user is presumed to be a regular user (otherwise why get the railcard in the first place) and the defence that I don't know how tickets or discounts work isn't going to hold up as easily.

 

[Benjwri]

I don't disagree with that, but I maintain that if you buy a railcard you need to know where and when you can use it and I struggle to understand why that view is seen as contentious.

Anyone who has even touched railway ticketing knows it is a minefield, and there are a million documented and undocumented routes. Even buying a flexible ticket often confuses people. Yes it is reasonable to expect them to know the area of validity, however when a railway accredited site tells them something it is valid, it is wholly unreasonable to expect them to even doubt it.

If a discount does get erroneously applied, there is an expectation that I will do something to double check. Just as I check that a discount has been applied on valid tickets.

Why though? The railway has told the passenger this ticket is valid. For all they know there is some easement that's possibly documented somewhere deep in some document, maybe not even available to the public. Why should they have to spend their time working it our when it is the industry that is making the mistake.

 

[Vexed]

I have a network card and I am expected to know very well that it is not valid on weekdays before 9:30am

I don't want to by that guy but it's 10am.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Anyone getting a railcard has agreed to its terms and conditions. I have a network card and I am expected to know very well that it is not valid on weekdays before 9:30am or beyond Banbury northwards.

Is that assertion actually correct? Other than where time restriction easements are specifically permitted, Network Railcard discounted tickets aren't normally ever valid for midweek travel before 10.00 a.m., are they?

 

[Haywain]

Anyone who has even touched railway ticketing knows it is a minefield, and there are a million documented and undocumented routes.

I have lots of experience in that field, so don't need to be told it's complex.

Yes it is reasonable to expect them to know the area of validity,

So, you actually agree with me!

when a railway accredited site tells them something it is valid,

It's been stated a number of times in this thread that the outward journey in this case is valid if used in accordance with the itinerary that has been generated and provided to the customer. And, by the way, why the emphasis on 'railway accredited', I don't represent the railway industry.

it is wholly unreasonable to expect them to even doubt it.

And in that, I disagree. The OP doubted it and was not being unreasonable in doing so. In any commercial transaction it is best to exercise some doubt over what you are paying for as mistakes will very often not be to ones advantage, as they sre in this case.

 

[BongoStar]

I don't want to by that guy but it's 10am.

Is that assertion actually correct? Other than where time restriction easements are specifically permitted, Network Railcard discounted tickets aren't normally ever valid for midweek travel before 10.00 a.m., are they?

My bad, it's 10am.

 

[redreni]

Without a return itinerary he’d have to go the valid routing.

If the OP didn't happen to know that the route on the outbound itinerary goes outside the Gold Card area, then I don't think it could reasonably be said that he ought to have known when an accredited retailer was telling him otherwise.

And if that's correct (which I acknowledge is debatable) then I really don't see how he could magically be expected to know the same routing would be invalid on the way back.

I do wonder if some people interpret the right to travel in accordance with the itinerary against which the ticket was sold without having the reason for it in mind. The reason that right has to exist (despite not being stated in the routing guide afaik) is because it would be unreasonable to expect the consumer to know or suspect that they'd been sold something that wasn't valid. In this case, it is either reasonable to expect the OP to know he couldn't go via Bristol on that ticket or it isn't. I really don't see how one can accept he couldn't reasonably know when he makes the outbound journey but then expect him to check the route against the Gold Card area map before returning, when the return route is the same. Not having a return itinerary may well carry an obligation to check things like peak/off-peak or TOC restrictions, or time restrictions on the use of the Railcard, but in the reasonable customer's mind the validity of that ticket via Bristol has already been established by the fact it was sold to him on an itinerary via Bristol. It's not as if we're talking about two entirely separate journeys or different tickets, here. So in that respect, I do wonder if the right to do things that would otherwise not be valid based on an itinerary is interpreted too narrowly by some?

Conversely if, as a matter of fact, the customer does know that an error has been made by the retailer that means their ticket is invalid and there is evidence of this, I would not personally even think about relying on an itinerary which I know to be erroneous and can be shown to have known was erroneous before I travelled. That is just asking for trouble.

There may, of course, be cases where the customer doesn't know about the retailer's error when they make the outbound journey but does know before they make the return journey (e.g. if they are alerted to the issue during their outbound journey in the course of a ticket check). That is a situation I am less sure about. The customer could not, in my view, then return via Bristol on that ticket, but if it were me I would try to get the retailer to issue me with a new ticket, valid to make the return journey via Bristol, for no additional charge given they sold me a return ticket.

 

[Surreytraveller]

A railcard user is presumed to be a regular user (otherwise why get the railcard in the first place) and the defence that I don't know how tickets or discounts work isn't going to hold up as easily.

Not necessarily. You can get the cost of a Railcard back by making one journey

 

[richw]

Not necessarily. You can get the cost of a Railcard back by making one journey

Both my Devon and Cornwall and friends and family covered their full costs in one trip on each. My D&C is my every day card, and saved Nearly £20 on one trip to take the kids to see their grandparents at Camborne from Liskeard.

Friends and family saved more than it’s cost on one round trip from Liskeard to Gatwick for 2 adults 4 kids.