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If you're extending the tram, I'd take the opportunity a tram provides to build an alignment closer to the places you're trying to serve. Trams can have steeper gradients and tighter curves than a mainline railway (especially one designed to take freight trains). They can also dive onto roads to serve town centres directly. Oldham gives a good example of how a tram into the heart of a town can be far more useful than a train station halfway up/down a hill on the edge.
Out of interest, in a city like Sheffield where the topology is, ahem, dramatic, how important are horizontal and vertical distances to the station, relative to each other when people are deciding whether to walk to them?
Gradients and rivers are very significant factors in the Sheffield area.
Here's a small part of the difficult area if you want to take the tram route off from Middlewood, on the much more populous side of the Upper Don Valley up to the railway alignment. OS map at 1:25,000 revised 1970; https://maps.nls.uk/view/196185561
Away from the talk of passenger service which will now never happen due to cost of repairing a derelict railway.... What actually happened to the once a day Aldwarke to Stockbridge Steel train, 6J57/58. We had COVID and it never returned. Why did it not return?
Only because it is one more indicator of the decline of UK manufacturing industry. The vision of the line reopening for some form of passenger rail service was never realistic.
Stocksbridge's population is too small to warrant a tram service, and it does not have a hinterland to act as a "railhead" park-and-ride facility - there is already a sizeable one at Middlewood anyway.
It is now time to remove the track and overbridges on this redundant rail alignment.
Away from the talk of passenger service which will now never happen due to cost of repairing a derelict railway.... What actually happened to the once a day Aldwarke to Stockbridge Steel train, 6J57/58. We had COVID and it never returned. Why did it not return?
Quick, blow the bridges + that'll make sure it never reopens. Not as a cycle path like the rest of the route, and not as rail if there is a turnaround in fortunes of the steelworks or a better industrial strategy.
If you were going to re-open / expand steel production, you wouldn't be doing it at Stocksbridge. It's only really tradition which kept those works open. There are much better options - even locally - than the highly constrained and difficult to access location at Stocksbridge.
If you were going to re-open / expand steel production, you wouldn't be doing it at Stocksbridge. It's only really tradition which kept those works open. There are much better options - even locally - than the highly constrained and difficult to access location at Stocksbridge.
That’s not true at all. It has additional specialist facilities for more advanced steel than other steelworks, hence why it is still going while others aren’t.
That’s not true at all. It has additional specialist facilities for more advanced steel than other steelworks, hence why it is still going while others aren’t.
Exactly. Moreover, it'd be the target of some form of regeneration - supported politically to have favourable planning consents and subsidies because ultimately it is the local big employer. Or perhaps the country's had enough of heavy industry .. you'd think it given the current political environment!
Stocksbridge's population is too small to warrant a tram service, and it does not have a hinterland to act as a "railhead" park-and-ride facility - there is already a sizeable one at Middlewood anyway.
It is now time to remove the track and overbridges on this redundant rail alignment.
There's 20,000 people along the alignment and the potential for a lot more housing to improve Sheffield's severe housing shortage (especially given the relative lack of viable sites for family housing further in).
For an extension over 7.5 miles of track (maximum), which is mostly disused and which also has potential for a fast service into Nunnery Square and joining the existing tram train later on, it should be a key SYMCA target.
Indeed it would, operationally, but the alignment is commercially not near enough to where many people live or where those who do would want to go. See any map.
It's a rail enthusiasts dream based on nostalgia and maybe a wish to reopen Woodhead.
New railway lines and stations need to be rooted in practical reality.
Indeed it would, operationally, but the alignment is commercially not near enough to where many people live or where those who do would want to go. See any map.
It's a rail enthusiasts dream based on nostalgia and maybe a wish to reopen Woodhead.
I for one would find Penistone to Sheffield Midland (including the reversal at Nunnery) in 26 minutes (current 46 minutes), although I wouldn't enjoy that being only 7 trains a day.
Now what did happen to that Levelling Up Penistone line proposal.. the new MP hasn't been as vocal as the last on this topic, although she didn't say too much in the last six months on it!
I shall be very interested to see how that one works out, although the potential population in the catchment area is supposedly 46,000. It's over an hour into Edinburgh so there'll be demand for other destinations en route that already had an established service
The real world? It has the potential to take a lot of traffic into Sheffield from Stocksbridge and act as a park and ride for the main transpennine A628 Manchester-Sheffield route (especially as the Snake Pass is on borrowed time).
It's probably one of the most viable proposals in the SYMCA area.
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Indeed it would, operationally, but the alignment is commercially not near enough to where many people live or where those who do would want to go. See any map.
It's a rail enthusiasts dream based on nostalgia and maybe a wish to reopen Woodhead.
New railway lines and stations need to be rooted in practical reality.
It doesn't have to be that way - a tram standards reopening would allow more low-cost stations closer to the areas of settlement, rather than reopening as heavy rail with the previous stations. As the alignment would be permanently converted to light rail north west of Beeley Wood, there is no potential for a Woodhead reopening either.
The real world? It has the potential to take a lot of traffic into Sheffield from Stocksbridge and act as a park and ride for the main transpennine A628 Manchester-Sheffield route (especially as the Snake Pass is on borrowed time).
It's probably one of the most viable proposals in the SYMCA area.
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I shall be very interested to see how that one works out, although the potential population in the catchment area is supposedly 46,000. It's over an hour into Edinburgh so there'll be demand for other destinations en route that already had an established service
I hope that they are successful - if it works it means elsewhere will get more confidence. If lines could be reopened ''on the cheap'' like Oxford to Bicester in 1987(ish) they could really experiment a whole lot more. Wooden platforms were fine back then - and many still are in use.
Now what did happen to that Levelling Up Penistone line proposal.. the new MP hasn't been as vocal as the last on this topic, although she didn't say too much in the last six months on it!
The previous MP really did push hard for this and the potential reopening of the route to Sheffield.
Now Labour's back in though, expect nothing. They've no interest in Stocksbridge. If it's not in the city centre, then they simply don't care.
Shame there's so much short term thinking and lack of vision. Especially since Sheffield are really pushing this net zero ULEZ twaddle - surely better public transport links would encourage people to use more of it.
Whilst ever the woeful 57 bus service takes an hour to get to Sheffield via every back-street North Sheffield has, you'll never get most Stocksbridgers out of their cars. Public transport in this district is just painful.
There's 20,000 people along the alignment and the potential for a lot more housing to improve Sheffield's severe housing shortage (especially given the relative lack of viable sites for family housing further in).
For an extension over 7.5 miles of track (maximum), which is mostly disused and which also has potential for a fast service into Nunnery Square and joining the existing tram train later on, it should be a key SYMCA target.
This is true actually,
They are in the middle of building a huge estate on the old Oughtibridge paper mill (though it's actually in Wharncliffe Side) and that's on the north side of the Don, i.e. near the line.
Similarly they are building a big estate on the site of the old sewage works just east of Deepcar, right next to where the line runs.
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The previous MP really did push hard for this and the potential reopening of the route to Sheffield.
Now Labour's back in though, expect nothing. They've no interest in Stocksbridge. If it's not in the city centre, then they simply don't care.
Shame there's so much short term thinking and lack of vision. Especially since Sheffield are really pushing this net zero ULEZ twaddle - surely better public transport links would encourage people to use more of it.
Whilst ever the woeful 57 bus service takes an hour to get to Sheffield via every back-street North Sheffield has, you'll never get most Stocksbridgers out of their cars. Public transport in this district is just painful.
My wife reports that the 57 is also very unreliable. Furthermore it is only every 30min, which means if you miss one (or one is nor running) that's a half hour wait. In fact after about 18.00 they're only every hour, and on a Sunday every two hours !
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I hope that they are successful - if it works it means elsewhere will get more confidence. If lines could be reopened ''on the cheap'' like Oxford to Bicester in 1987(ish) they could really experiment a whole lot more. Wooden platforms were fine back then - and many still are in use.
This is also true. The problem is they seem to want to gold plate everything which puts the cost up hugely, I really cannot understand how reopening a station should cost squillions of pounds. It's all very well insisting on step free access and also no crossing the line but that costs a lot of money. On the subject of which, I assume they would not insist on that for a tram stop (thus showing how inconsistent the whole thing is) !
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I for one would find Penistone to Sheffield Midland (including the reversal at Nunnery) in 26 minutes (current 46 minutes), although I wouldn't enjoy that being only 7 trains a day.
I agree, as I said earlier service frequency is as important as speed.
I am a rail fan, but I still think there is much more potential for higher use if it were made light rail and integrated into the Supertram network preferably extended off the end of the Yellow line. That would also mean quick and easy journeys to the "Hospital Quarter" and the University, plus right into the centre of town without having to change. People don't like changing....
My wife reports that the 57 is also very unreliable. Furthermore it is only every 30min, which means if you miss one (or one is nor running) that's a half hour wait. In fact after about 18.00 they're only every hour, and on a Sunday every two hours !
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This is also true. The problem is they seem to want to gold plate everything which puts the cost up hugely, I really cannot understand how reopening a station should cost squillions of pounds. It's all very well insisting on step free access and also no crossing the line but that costs a lot of money. On the subject of which, I assume they would not insist on that for a tram stop (thus showing how inconsistent the whole thing is) !
Down here in SW Sheffield we still have an hourly rail service into Sheffield, nonstop taking 7 minutes. 97/98 bus takes about 25 jerky minutes if it is on time, which it rarely is (and often seems to be cancelled), but it stops at a lot more convenient places for more people than the train and goes nearer the centre of the city.
The biggest difficulties with any rail based options are enormous capital and running costs, inflexibility of routes, and inability of one unit to overtake another without passing loops. It needs large volumes on simple routes to make them viable. The Elizabeth line, Thameslink and Docklands Light Railway work - but the cost was immense.
We just haven't the volumes to make most rail based solutions viable in a hilly city like Sheffield. By saying most I leave a door ajar for those who can make a strong business case for something that might be delivered by 2040-50!
For now I just want to see 3 tracked Sheaf Valley route into a reconfigured Sheffield Midland with enough platform space for all the full length trains it should be taking if volumes increase by a modest 25%, let alone doubling.
A new station between Tescos and Sainsbury's at Archer Road would be great but even that limited aim looks much more difficult than it sounds after looking at maps and a cab view of the line.
It's all very well insisting on step free access and also no crossing the line but that costs a lot of money. On the subject of which, I assume they would not insist on that for a tram stop (thus showing how inconsistent the whole thing is) !
<dream_mode>add on a battery version to squeeze under the Stocksbridge bypass in the tiny tunnel beyond Deepcar and head to Penistone.. it could share with pedestrians and cyclists, which is 'just fine' for trams (mind those tracks, cyclists!).</dream_mode>
I am a rail fan, but I still think there is much more potential for higher use if it were made light rail and integrated into the Supertram network preferably extended off the end of the Yellow line. That would also mean quick and easy journeys to the "Hospital Quarter" and the University, plus right into the centre of town without having to change. People don't like changing....
It should definitely link to it. 700 metres from the park and ride to the line.. you could even open that in both directions - to Stocksbridge and to Sheffield - making a loop, and a faster journey for Middlewood. Crayons away..
It should definitely link to it. 700 metres from the park and ride to the line.. you could even open that in both directions - to Stocksbridge and to Sheffield - making a loop, and a faster journey for Middlewood. Crayons away..
It's another wet and miserable day so if I'm going anywhere it will be in the car as it's a long hilly walk to the bus, and a very muddy one to the train! However time to get a crayon out.
Sheffield has two major hospitals, Royal Hallamshire where the University of Sheffield's Medical School is centred and Northern General. They work in tandem with many staff and patients moving between the two. Doctors tend to live nearer the Hallamshire but more probably work at the Northern General. It's almost 4 miles by car between them and parking around both hospitals is an expensive nightmare.
This idea must surely have been looked at in the beginning and quickly ruled out as far too expensive.
Continue the current tram route westwards past Meadowhall working up to the Tyler Street area and Holywell Lane, then Upwell Street, Owler Lane, Rushby Street to Fir Vale for the Northern General. Carry on Barnsley Road, Pitsmoor Road, Rutland Road back to Penistone Road, up through Shalesmoor to Brookhill and the University stop for the Hallamshire and then go round again in a loop.
Passing lots of terraced houses, businesses and industrial premises, all Sheffield's major retail outlets and both major hospitals. Not as close to the hospitals as many would want but the financial line has to be drawn somewhere.
It should have been done at the start but better late than never. Those who know Sheffield will understand the hills, rivers and existing railway with its cuttings, embankments bridges, tunnels and viaducts make anything new somewhat complex. Plenty of reasons why not.
However this suggestion levels up the more affluent south-west side of the city centre with the Hallamshire Hospital and University with the less well to do areas to the north-east and the Northern General.
Stupid idea. Lots of more important tasks need doing today and the rain may be stopping at last - and we've avoided major floods.
This is true actually,
They are in the middle of building a huge estate on the old Oughtibridge paper mill (though it's actually in Wharncliffe Side) and that's on the north side of the Don, i.e. near the line.
Similarly they are building a big estate on the site of the old sewage works just east of Deepcar, right next to where the line runs.
So there seems to be another 45 3 beds at the old paper mill site (so probably over a hundred new residents) and 413 new homes on the Bloor Homes Wharncliffe Park development next to Deepcar railway station. That's at least a thousand new residents, so the population has grown to 21k before the Supertram extension has even been built. With the volume of brownfield sites becoming available in the area, it would be incredibly attractive to build housing in the area if the Supertram was extended. Perhaps a Housing Infrastructure Fund could be sought towards the costs of reopening too.
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It's another wet and miserable day so if I'm going anywhere it will be in the car as it's a long hilly walk to the bus, and a very muddy one to the train! However time to get a crayon out.
Sheffield has two major hospitals, Royal Hallamshire where the University of Sheffield's Medical School is centred and Northern General. They work in tandem with many staff and patients moving between the two. Doctors tend to live nearer the Hallamshire but more probably work at the Northern General. It's almost 4 miles by car between them and parking around both hospitals is an expensive nightmare.
This idea must surely have been looked at in the beginning and quickly ruled out as far too expensive.
Continue the current tram route westwards past Meadowhall working up to the Tyler Street area and Holywell Lane, then Upwell Street, Owler Lane, Rushby Street to Fir Vale for the Northern General. Carry on Barnsley Road, Pitsmoor Road, Rutland Road back to Penistone Road, up through Shalesmoor to Brookhill and the University stop for the Hallamshire and then go round again in a loop.
Passing lots of terraced houses, businesses and industrial premises, all Sheffield's major retail outlets and both major hospitals. Not as close to the hospitals as many would want but the financial line has to be drawn somewhere.
It should have been done at the start but better late than never. Those who know Sheffield will understand the hills, rivers and existing railway with its cuttings, embankments bridges, tunnels and viaducts make anything new somewhat complex. Plenty of reasons why not.
However this suggestion levels up the more affluent south-west side of the city centre with the Hallamshire Hospital and University with the less well to do areas to the north-east and the Northern General.
Stupid idea. Lots of more important tasks need doing today and the rain may be stopping at last - and we've avoided major floods.
Maybe a line could be considered from Chapeltown - Ecclesfield - Sheffield Lane Top - Fir Vale - Pitsmoor - Neepsend to join the existing route near Infirmary Road, then diverge off at University Square and past the Royal Hallamshire to Broomhill, Ranmoor and Fulwood.
This would be part of a later Supertram expansion, but for now I think we should focus on Stocksbridge.
It's-a coming. Work would have started already, but someone objected to the overnight route closures required.
If money was no object, you could build a viaduct from Victoria, straddling the A61 and tying in with the existing viaduct. Then you could run services into Midland or Cathedral. Or Meadowhall, with the right connection at Nunnery or (more likely) Attercliffe. But you'd have to re-double the whole route, and you won't have the money once you've built the viaduct
This is true actually,
They are in the middle of building a huge estate on the old Oughtibridge paper mill (though it's actually in Wharncliffe Side) and that's on the north side of the Don, i.e. near the line.
Similarly they are building a big estate on the site of the old sewage works just east of Deepcar, right next to where the line runs.
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My wife reports that the 57 is also very unreliable. Furthermore it is only every 30min, which means if you miss one (or one is nor running) that's a half hour wait. In fact after about 18.00 they're only every hour, and on a Sunday every two hours !
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Not Surprised the 57 is unreliable & late, it interworks with the 2 Barnsley service & buses on 57a run dead to & from Ecclesfield depot to City Centre to run the route.
Not Surprised the 57 is unreliable & late, it interworks with the 2 Barnsley service & buses on 57a run dead to & from Ecclesfield depot to City Centre to run the route.
The 57 has been unreliable and late for the last 20 years. When First ran the service, the 57s were often inter-worked with Castleton services and that never turned out well during the rush hour.
I used the 57s for twenty years, (and most former services around the area: Sheffield bound services: SL, 58, X66, X67 and even the Barnsley/Meadowhall services: 23, 24, 25, 201). As you can see there were loads of buses up until 2004 and then they all got cut, year on year and reliability tanked. The 57 and the very truncated 201 are the only survivors. Public transport in Stocksbridge is hard to use and requires a lot of endurance. I would battle to get to work, having to get the one before the one I could catch because the service was so unreliable that you'd expect it not to turn up more often than not.
In 2020 I finally gave up and bought a car. I wouldn't go back to using the buses. I'd certainly consider a train or tram though.
It's-a coming. Work would have started already, but someone objected to the overnight route closures required.
If money was no object, you could build a viaduct from Victoria, straddling the A61 and tying in with the existing viaduct. Then you could run services into Midland or Cathedral. Or Meadowhall, with the right connection at Nunnery or (more likely) Attercliffe. But you'd have to re-double the whole route, and you won't have the money once you've built the viaduct
Regardless of all that I am sure that the Deepcar line would be much busier if it just joined on to the end of the Yellow route. The journey as far as Middlewood would be pretty quick anyway as its off road and there probably wouldn't be more than three stops on it between Stocksbridge and Middlewood*.
I admit it'd be slower from Middlewood onwards, but to balance that there would be many more places one could get to without having to change, thus there would be a more frequent service which would balance the slower end to end journey time.
* possible stops ?
Fox Valley (terminus)
Deepcar
Wharncliffe Side (ex Oughtibridge paper mill)
Oughtibridge
What is most unfortunate is there does not appear to be anywhere a P&R could be set up in Stocksbridge / Deepcar. I am sure that'd do very well. Straight off the A616 (or any of the surrounding villages) then onto a tram which would be limited stop to Middlewood. All those doctors living out there with their big houses and horse paddocks could get straight to the hospitals Quarter without changing !
Also the site of the ex Oughtibridge station is rather congested with new housing now so I am not entirely sure where the stop could go ?
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The 57 has been unreliable and late for the last 20 years. When First ran the service, the 57s were often inter-worked with Castleton services and that never turned out well during the rush hour.
I used the 57s for twenty years, (and most former services around the area: Sheffield bound services: SL, 58, X66, X67 and even the Barnsley/Meadowhall services: 23, 24, 25, 201). As you can see there were loads of buses up until 2004 and then they all got cut, year on year and reliability tanked. The 57 and the very truncated 201 are the only survivors. Public transport in Stocksbridge is hard to use and requires a lot of endurance. I would battle to get to work, having to get the one before the one I could catch because the service was so unreliable that you'd expect it not to turn up more often than not.
In 2020 I finally gave up and bought a car. I wouldn't go back to using the buses. I'd certainly consider a train or tram though.
I don't know how old you are Mat, but did you ever use the buses when it was SYT ?
Heavily subsidised I know, but the service was far better, more reliable and more frequent.
I have a 1978 timetable and the service was :
3 servs per hour (2 per hour after 18.00) last bus from town 23.00.
45 Minutes (Town to Unsliven Bridge), this was only 45min because Deepcar had the 66/67 doing a circular route so the 57 did not have to divert all over the place to provide a service off the main road. Nor did it have to serve Worrall, the 65/68 did that. In addition Oughtibridge had the 65/68 at two services per hour (1/hr after 18.00) up to 23.15.
2024 :
2 servs per hour (1 per hour after 18.00) last bus from town 22.50
65 Minutes (Town to Unsliven Bridge), due to no separate circular route within Deepcar.
