New railway lines and stations for South Yorkshire

[GardenRail]

Sorry for the slow reply - election season!
I meant a branch on street up Leppings Lane and Halifax Road to the Stockbridge line overbridge and then repurposing the access road on the left before the bridge to rise to the level of the railway line. Some works needed, but not a huge amount.

Would the actual railway between Woodburn and your Halifax Road proposal close then? That would require some quite expensive signalling works if not.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Would the actual railway between Woodburn and your Halifax Road proposal close then? That would require some quite expensive signalling works if not.

I'd assume the goods services still need to access Stockbridge, so I'd say the expensive signalling would have to be installed.

 

[Mat17]

I'd assume the goods services still need to access Stockbridge, so I'd say the expensive signalling would have to be installed.

I think those have been mothballed, don't quote me on that, but I'm sure I read on here it's been out of use for a while now.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think those have been mothballed, don't quote me on that, but I'm sure I read on here it's been out of use for a while now.

Ah so it could be used for the tram train without expensive signalling at least initially, great!

 

[GardenRail]

I think those have been mothballed, don't quote me on that, but I'm sure I read on here it's been out of use for a while now.

Hmmmm. It used to be regular as clockwork, every day. Since COVID it's not returned. Not sure what happened to the demand or need etc.

 

[GardenRail]

Another test train went up to Deepcar this morning. 1Q53.

 

[Iskra]

Thanks for the update

 

[fishwomp]

Another test train went up to Deepcar this morning. 1Q53.

Another scheduled today;

Realtime Trains | 2Q20 1041 Peterborough Shunt Spur to Derby | 29/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 2Q20 1041 departure from Peterborough Shunt Spur to Derby on 29/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Anyone know what it is and why? It's covering some territory rather than direct and is class 2, which I have seen track recording as before with a class 153, so it might be just that.

 

[zwk500]

Another scheduled today;

Realtime Trains | 2Q20 1041 Peterborough Shunt Spur to Derby | 29/07/2024

Real-time train running information for 2Q20 1041 departure from Peterborough Shunt Spur to Derby on 29/07/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Anyone know what it is and why? It's covering some territory rather than direct and is class 2, which I have seen track recording as before with a class 153, so it might be just that.

Almost certainly a test train - The TSC listed in RTT isn't found on Rail Record https://www.rail-record.co.uk/train-service-codes/, but the first 7 digits match all the other Colas test train service codes.

 

[Iskra]

That's quite the tour. Could it be the 950 (Network Rail 150) that often seems to be around Doncaster? Good to see a bit more activity on the line. I might go out for an evening stroll...

 

[zwk500]

That's quite the tour. Could it be the 950 (Network Rail 150) that often seems to be around Doncaster? Good to see a bit more activity on the line. I might go out for an evening stroll...

It's quite normal for a test train schedule to do that kind of all-about route. It's pathed as a Loco at 75mph rather than a DMU so I suspect it's probably a mix of different inspection elements rather than the TRU.

 

[Iskra]

It's quite normal for a test train schedule to do that kind of all-about route. It's pathed as a Loco at 75mph rather than a DMU so I suspect it's probably a mix of different inspection elements rather than the TRU.

Interesting, thank you.

 

[GardenRail]

Sad thing is, it's probably nothing to do with getting passenger trains up to Deepcar. I'd love to see the Steel Traffic start again though.

 

[Iskra]

Partially cancelled after Derby due to a problem with the traction equipment according to RTT, so unless another path appears then no Stocksbridge train today.

 

[TheGuy77]

http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/H26%20Sheffield.pdf

HSUK has made their own scheme for what local rail services in South Yorkshire could look like.

HSUK/Network North will serve Sheffield at new station on site of former Sheffield Victoria station
• This will form Sheffield’s new rail hub, integrating high speed intercity services at the high level platforms and local services at low level platforms on the existing approaches to Sheffield Midland
• Proposed HSUK works will enable establishment of greatly improved local services on all radial routes into Sheffield.

 

[zwk500]

http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk/H26%20Sheffield.pdf

HSUK has made their own scheme for what local rail services in South Yorkshire could look like.

8tph to Dore. Good to see they're consistently optimistic on feasibility.

 

[D365]

But if I wanted to catch a train to say York, Lincoln or Manchester. I'd have to drive to Middlewood, park and wait for a tram. Then catch a yellow tram to Hillsborough, change at Hillsborough and wait ten minutes for a blue route tram to then catch that to the station, to change again. Or stick with a yellow route tram to alight at Castle Square and then do the trudge all the way to Sheffield Midland.

Fitzalan/Ponds Forge to Midland is hardly a long trudge. Admittedly it’s not very well signposted, but the walk via the bus interchange is no more than five minutes.

 

[Killingworth]

Fitzalan/Ponds Forge to Midland is hardly a long trudge. Admittedly it’s not very well signposted, but the walk via the bus interchange is no more than five minutes.

I'd suggest all but the very fittest would need to allow 10 minutes, depending on where the timing starts, assuming they know the way and are happy on hills.

But signposting around that area is indeed poor and you may have to pass a few beggars on the way.

The free Sheffield Conect bus will be encountered at some point and should be the best way. It's not, but that's another subject for another thread.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I used to quite like the idea of building a new station in the vicinity of Sheffield Victoria, my personal preference later superseeded to significant sections of new line and tunnel to the West of Hope!

 

[Killingworth]

I used to quite like the idea of building a new station in the vicinity of Sheffield Victoria, my personal preference later superseeded to significant sections of new line and tunnel to the West of Hope!

A big part of the difficulty getting from Sheffield to Manchester is the complex geology of the South Pennines. Mam Tor, the shivering mountain, is the best known but as you travel along Edale you can see several old land slips. We know the tracks were sliding between Strines and New Mills very recently. Cowburn Tunnel is very wet as is Totley Tunnel. Minor land slips along the route occur from time to time and this makes it difficult to raise line speeds at reasonable cost.

In Norway they just blast their way through mountain ranges with minimal lining. Tunnels through the Pennines go through more difficult rocks and need different methods usually requiring lining throughout. In an ideal world, money no object, I'd start boring below Sheffield Midland, almost dead straight to Manchester Piccadilly, totally in tunnel, virtually level. No junctions, no bridges, level crossings, trespassers or weather to contend with. 20 minutes end to end for 32.5 miles.The Sheff-Man or Man-Sheff line - the Peak Tube. As a concession I might allow my friends in Glossop a deep tunnel station as the straight line goes almost exactly beneath Glossop station. Start with 3 trains an hour, one stopping at Glossop.

It'll never happen but imagine getting between the centres of those two cities quicker than to their suburbs! A good example of railway levelling up in practice.

Dream on - but see how well the Elizabeth line is doing and look back at the difficult times it had to reach completion.

 

[Trackman]

Another test train went up to Deepcar this morning. 1Q53.

Deepcar branch goes out of use in a couple of hours time at 00.01 29/09/2024
That includes test trains.

 

[Iskra]

Deepcar branch goes out of use in a couple of hours time at 00.01 29/09/2024
That includes test trains.

Sad news

 

[daodao]

Sad news

Only because it is one more indicator of the decline of UK manufacturing industry. The vision of the line reopening for some form of passenger rail service was never realistic.

 

[GardenRail]

That's it then. It'll never come back now.

 

[Iskra]

I’m glad that I did the line to Deepcar while I could a few years back then

 

[Trackman]

View attachment 166416View attachment 166417View attachment 166418I’m glad that I did the line to Deepcar while I could a few years back then

I'm taking it was the 'the last chance?' railtour? In which it was.

Checked Traksy this morning, now showing as OOU

 

[Iskra]

I'm taking it was the 'the last chance?' railtour? In which it was.

Checked Traksy this morning, now showing as OOU

No, it was a Martin House one a couple of years before, I think it also did Drax Power Station and was a pair of 37’s.

 

[Justin Smith]

The problem with both Stocksbridge and Barrow Hill routes is that the stations aren't particularly well sited to serve the passenger demand. Given the Tram P&R sites already along these lines, I'm not sure the modal shift potential is very good on these lines.

If you have to interchange at Nunnery, is it any better for an end-to-end journey than driving to Middlewood Tram Stop? The railway isn't going to be massively fast with a sharp curve out of Stocksbridge and following the valley. Especially as you'll need to take 2 trams from Nunnery Square to Midland (changing at Ponds Forge) or would you introduce an additional Rotherham/Meadowhall-Halfway route?

Speaking as someone who lives between Deepcar and Hillsborough there is ample chance of significant "modal shift" because the traffic is horrendous even getting to the P&R at Middlewood. Plus many people haven't got a car (or some other member of the family is using it....), or want to go out for the night whatever and can't drive etc.
Having said that service frequency is as important as speed, thus the ideal would be to put in a chord from the current extremity of the tram (at Middlewood) onto the Deepcar line and run trams, as many as poss but a minimum of 3 per hour (poss every other service ? ) all the way out to Deepcar.
I agree many stations would be in "sub optimal" locations but many people would be prepared to walk for a reliable tram service, which, my wife tells me, the bus is not.

 

[zwk500]

Speaking as someone who lives between Deepcar and Hillsborough there is ample chance of significant "modal shift" because the traffic is horrendous even getting to the P&R at Middlewood. Plus many people haven't got a car (or some other member of the family is using it....), or want to go out for the night whatever and can't drive etc.
Having said that service frequency is as important as speed, thus the ideal would be to put in a chord from the current extremity of the tram (at Middlewood) onto the Deepcar line and run trams, as many as poss but a minimum of 3 per hour (poss every other service ? ) all the way out to Deepcar.

If you're extending the tram, I'd take the opportunity a tram provides to build an alignment closer to the places you're trying to serve. Trams can have steeper gradients and tighter curves than a mainline railway (especially one designed to take freight trains). They can also dive onto roads to serve town centres directly. Oldham gives a good example of how a tram into the heart of a town can be far more useful than a train station halfway up/down a hill on the edge.

I agree many stations would be in "sub optimal" locations but many people would be prepared to walk for a reliable tram service, which, my wife tells me, the bus is not.

Out of interest, in a city like Sheffield where the topology is, ahem, dramatic, how important are horizontal and vertical distances to the station, relative to each other when people are deciding whether to walk to them?

 

[Justin Smith]

If you're extending the tram, I'd take the opportunity a tram provides to build an alignment closer to the places you're trying to serve. Trams can have steeper gradients and tighter curves than a mainline railway (especially one designed to take freight trains). They can also dive onto roads to serve town centres directly. Oldham gives a good example of how a tram into the heart of a town can be far more useful than a train station halfway up/down a hill on the edge.

Out of interest, in a city like Sheffield where the topology is, ahem, dramatic, how important are horizontal and vertical distances to the station, relative to each other when people are deciding whether to walk to them?

I don't think it's practical to divert the tram off the Deepcar line down into Oughibridge and Wharncliffe Side, the two biggest villages between Hillsborough and Deepcar, particularly as that would require building bridges to take the line over the Don (for both O/B and W/S). It would cost a fortune and extend journey times substantially. Most residents have to walk down the hill to catch the bus anyway, and back up it on the way home.

Obviously a flat walk would be preferable, but people living in hilly areas get use to it !