The Labour Party under Andy Burnham

[Tetchytyke]

A PS: A private education is beyond the means of most professional middle class people these days. A fairly standard sort of private school in the north of England is asking around 15k a year. Bedford School is asking £25k a year. Eton is £16 to 17K per term

Absolutely.

I’m the definition of middle class, my household income is £120,000 or so. The private school here charges £25,000 per year for a day student. I can’t afford those fees for two children, I probably couldn’t afford it for one tbh. I’m on a damn good wage and private school is beyond my means.

The fact is that I’m subsidising people to buy something that is way beyond my means. Time for change.

The people this affects are extremely wealthy. The trouble is they don’t consider themselves that way. Hence the wibble about the “suffering” of having to change schools, as though poorer children never that trouble when a parent loses a job and has to move to find work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==

My sister isn't wealthy and if her father in law hadn't stepped in to offer to pay the VAT then moving to a new school would have been a reality for my nephews

If things are that tight then it will happen within two years anyway, as schools are putting their underlying fees up by 10% a year at the moment. Interesting that the school intends to pass the VAT on in full; so much for their charitable aims to help people!

Of course starting a new school is nerve-wracking. What it isn’t is “suffering”.

 

[Richard Scott]

If things are that tight then it will happen within two years anyway, as schools are putting their underlying fees up by 10% a year at the moment. Interesting that the school intends to pass the VAT on in full; so much for their charitable aims to help people!

Of course starting a new school is nerve-wracking. What it isn’t is “suffering”.

10% is more manageable than 20%, if I'm honest I have no idea whether or not their fees are going up by that much. My sister hasn't mentioned it so assume not.
Charitable aims only have so much in their pocket, a lot of private schools actually aren't making money at all and are struggling with finances.
As for last statement that depends for some children it can be suffering. I work in education with years of experience, believe me it happens.

 

[neilmc]

Middle class parents have a way of working these things out. If private schooling becomes too expensive and the local authority schools aren't too brilliant they will move to the catchment area of a good state school and harass the staff endlessly to ensure they meet their little darlings needs.

A headmaster in Macclesfield stated to some parent friends of mine that his aim in his job was to make sue that the parents who had paid to send their kids to private schooling had wasted their money, if only everyone had this view.

 

[Richard Scott]

Middle class parents have a way of working these things out. If private schooling becomes too expensive and the local authority schools aren't too brilliant they will move to the catchment area of a good state school and harass the staff endlessly to ensure they meet their little darlings needs.

A headmaster in Macclesfield stated to some parent friends of mine that his aim in his job was to make sue that the parents who had paid to send their kids to private schooling had wasted their money, if only everyone had this view.

Again a very misguided view, that isn't always that easy. There seems to be a view from some people that middle class, as they call it, means made of money. It's not the case.
The second paragraph shows that some heads do know how to do it but, unfortunately, there are far too many who don't. A decent head will also stop demanding parents harass the staff and, believe me, they come from all backgrounds and there are plenty of 'little darlings' from all walks of life.

 

[Falcon1200]

As for “suffer”, well, that’s just hyperbole. Having to move to a new school is hardly “suffering”.

Of course starting a new school is nerve-wracking. What it isn’t is “suffering”.

That rather ignores the capacity of some teenage children (in particular) to bully and otherwise make their classmates' lives a misery, and someone removed from a private school and sent to the local comprehensive is undoubtedly going to, yes, suffer that.

 

[Harpo]

That rather ignores the capacity of some teenage children (in particular) to bully and otherwise make their classmates' lives a misery, and someone removed from a private school and sent to the local comprehensive is undoubtedly going to, yes, suffer that.

No bullying of any sort in private schools then??

 

[Snow1964]

If things are that tight then it will happen within two years anyway, as schools are putting their underlying fees up by 10% a year at the moment. Interesting that the school intends to pass the VAT on in full; so much for their charitable aims to help people!

A local news report, (can't remember which towns they mentioned) says local authority now have problems because so many are applying to transfer to good state school they haven't got the room. Potentially going to need to spend millions expanding schools as now getting waiting lists, plus the additional costs of teaching those that were previously private.

Apparently it legally needs about 18 months minimum notice of school changing its admission criteria, and the crowded state schools are stuck with existing in year admissions rules for those currently applying.

I might be missing something but if VAT increases price, and then many transfer to state schools which need expanding, isn't that going to cost Government more than the VAT income. Is it just Labour not understanding consequences.

 

[Tetchytyke]

A local news report, (can't remember which towns they mentioned) says local authority now have problems because so many are applying to transfer to good state school they haven't got the room.

As always, the best state schools will be oversubscribed. But overall there is excess capacity within the schooling system.

I know the Independent Schools Council are trying to claim it’ll cost more than it raises, but I don’t see it.

Less than 6% of school age children are in private education. Despite the wailing it is very much a niche activity.

I also really genuinely don’t think there’s going to be a mass desertion from the private sector. If there’s even a 10% reduction in pupil numbers in the private sector I’ll be amazed. But even if there is, a 10% reduction in private pupils is only about a 1% increase in state pupils.

 

[takno]

A local news report, (can't remember which towns they mentioned) says local authority now have problems because so many are applying to transfer to good state school they haven't got the room. Potentially going to need to spend millions expanding schools as now getting waiting lists, plus the additional costs of teaching those that were previously private.

Apparently it legally needs about 18 months minimum notice of school changing its admission criteria, and the crowded state schools are stuck with existing in year admissions rules for those currently applying.

I might be missing something but if VAT increases price, and then many transfer to state schools which need expanding, isn't that going to cost Government more than the VAT income. Is it just Labour not understanding consequences.

How many children do you seriously expect to move, and do you expect them all to move in the first year? Even if 10% of private school kids ultimately move, that's far less than a 10% increase in kids in state schools, and happening over a few years at a time when admissions are falling anyway it will likely barely be noticed.

Is it perhaps Labour fully understanding consequences and you not?

 

[JamesT]

As always, the best state schools will be oversubscribed. But overall there is excess capacity within the schooling system.

I know the Independent Schools Council are trying to claim it’ll cost more than it raises, but I don’t see it.

Less than 6% of school age children are in private education. Despite the wailing it is very much a niche activity.

I also really genuinely don’t think there’s going to be a mass desertion from the private sector. If there’s even a 10% reduction in pupil numbers in the private sector I’ll be amazed. But even if there is, a 10% reduction in private pupils is only about a 1% increase in state pupils.

It’s 6% of the overall numbers, but 18% when looking at over-16s (ie 6th-form).

 

[Snow1964]

How many children do you seriously expect to move, and do you expect them all to move in the first year? Even if 10% of private school kids ultimately move, that's far less than a 10% increase in kids in state schools, and happening over a few years at a time when admissions are falling anyway it will likely barely be noticed.

Is it perhaps Labour fully understanding consequences and you not?

I said it was local problems, where schools are full, don't forget lots more families have moved to Somerset & Wiltshire and family sized houses are being built in large numbers in some towns.

I used to live in outer London so I know there are falling primary school numbers there. Doesn't mean can apply London ideas and data to every town nationally.

 

[takno]

I said it was local problems, where schools are full, don't forget lots more families have moved to Somerset & Wiltshire and family sized houses are being built in large numbers in some towns.

I used to live in outer London so I know there are falling primary school numbers there. Doesn't mean can apply London ideas and data to every town nationally.

There are a few areas of the country with rising numbers of pupils, although not many and even where there is it's more of a short bulge than any likely long term trend. The demographics just aren't there to make it happen at scale.

Even if it does though, the effect of the people from private schools on the numbers will be minimal, to the point of complete irrelevance when compared to the new housebuilding.

 

[Richard Scott]

No bullying of any sort in private schools then??

Nobody said that didn't happen did they?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==

How many children do you seriously expect to move, and do you expect them all to move in the first year? Even if 10% of private school kids ultimately move, that's far less than a 10% increase in kids in state schools, and happening over a few years at a time when admissions are falling anyway it will likely barely be noticed.

Is it perhaps Labour fully understanding consequences and you not?

Some schools are already full with classes of 35 plus. A few extra children may make a difference and has a negative effect on these who are already there.
Labour understanding the consequences, really? After their covid performance I would never accuse them of understanding consequences.

 

[Harpo]

Nobody said that didn't happen did they?

No. But it was suggested that it would happen as a result of going from private to state schools, as though bullying doesn’t exist in private schools.

I’ve always accepted that, except for those headed for a civil or military enforcement role, school is probably the most violent phase of most peoples’ lives.

 

[takno]

Some schools are already full with classes of 35 plus. A few extra children may make a difference and has a negative effect on these who are already there.
Labour understanding the consequences, really? After their covid performance I would never accuse them of understanding consequences.

The numbers we're talking about are a maximum of about 1 child per 3 classes. This is all pretty desperate stuff tbh.

 

[oldman]

Some schools are already full with classes of 35 plus. A few extra children may make a difference and has a negative effect on these who are already there.
Labour understanding the consequences, really? After their covid performance I would never accuse them of understanding consequences.

Maybe, in a very small number of cases, which will no doubt be dealt with without undue difficulty.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

However, that is really what we are all about as a society, chasing the quick pound, and leaving ourselves at the mercy of the rest of the world.

It really saddens me - we just do not think long term.

 

[jfollows]

I know I'm old (it's my 63rd birthday today!) but the balance has shifted - I went to Manchester Grammar School and I passed both its entrance exam plus one from Cheshire County Council (maybe the 11+?) which got me a free place there and my travel expenses (rail and bus pass) paid for. Then university (Oxford and Imperial College) which - through my incompetence - ended up being four years, all paid for, plus travel expenses after the first year when I lived more than 3 miles away.

That was 1973-1984.

Obviously the main beneficiaries were my parents; I think they'd have paid if they had to. School if not university anyway. As it was I left the latter with a £1,000 credit card debt which my father paid off and I paid him back interest-free.

MGS is now >£15,000/year as has been said already.

I'd have hated boarding school.

If the free alternative is good enough, then it doesn't seem unreasonable to charge and to charge VAT also. My limited observation is that it's a postcode lottery.

Bottom line seems to me that school and university used to be a sop towards the middle classes in the 1970s/1980s when the numbers were relatively small. Now that lots more people go to university than used to (a good thing) the bung can't be afforded.

 

[nw1]

MGS is now >£15,000/year as has been said already.

Just out of interest does anyone know how much typical school fees were in say the 80s? It would be interesting to see how the current fees compare with the late 20th century.

Not wanting to get into the political discussion about whether VAT should be applied or not (I can see pros and cons) - but I think it's plain that £15,000 a year is unaffordable even for a typical affluent middle class household.

 

[jfollows]

Just out of interest does anyone know how much typical school fees were in say the 80s? It would be interesting to see how the current fees compare with the late 20th century.

Not wanting to get into the political discussion about whether VAT should be applied or not (I can see pros and cons) - but I think it's plain that £15,000 a year is unaffordable even for a typical affluent middle class household.

I can't answer your question and I'd be interested to know also.
I was at the end of the Direct Grant/11+ system, and I went to Cheadle Hulme School (the one you can see from the train between Handforth and Cheadle Hulme stations) 1970-73 which I think my parents paid for; I then passed both its entrance exam and the one for Manchester Grammar School but I remember that the "free place" exam I also passed was only applicable to the latter even though it was Cheshire County Council paying for it - my parents gave me the choice which was good of them, but in the end I decided I needed the challenge of MGS and went there for free.

By 1980 I was second in the school Mathematics Sixth Form (there was one boy who was obviously better than me and the rest of us) and had no problem going to university - once there it was a different story of course.

So back to your point - would my parents have been able to stump up the equivalent of £15,000/year for 7+ years? I don’t know. All I know is that I had an opportunity that I might not have today.

 

[Richard Scott]

Maybe, in a very small number of cases, which will no doubt be dealt with without undue difficulty.

Ok, so I work in education faced with all these issues but seems everyone else knows better.
This is why we are at 35 or so because of small numbers just being dealt with and it'scrept up over time. I'm willing to state that investment in schools will not significantly change over the next 5 years. The VAT will make no difference to state education bar putting some more children into it that would have otherwise gone to a private school. If they are small numbers they still need accommodating and there are times where one or two extra children starting means they cannot be easily accommodated in the correct group for their ability as they are full.
I expect all those who know better will have some answers for this but why should I know, I only do it for a living!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2024 ==

The numbers we're talking about are a maximum of about 1 child per 3 classes. This is all pretty desperate stuff tbh.

You have figures for that? Is that primary or secondary? It's not desperate at all, it's a realistic issue.

 

[Falcon1200]

But it was suggested that it would happen as a result of going from private to state schools, as though bullying doesn’t exist in private schools.

Of course it does, but the bullying a 'posh kid' will undoubtedly endure after being moved from a private to a state school will be at a different level.

 

[Richard Scott]

Of course it does, but the bullying a 'posh kid' will undoubtedly endure after being moved from a private to a state school will be at a different level.

Definitely would depend on the school, one thing I have noticed over the years is kids are more tolerant of differences than they were.
Not saying bullying doesn't happen, though, because it does.

 

[AlterEgo]

That rather ignores the capacity of some teenage children (in particular) to bully and otherwise make their classmates' lives a misery, and someone removed from a private school and sent to the local comprehensive is undoubtedly going to, yes, suffer that.

Undoubtedly? No.

Gosh it must be so hard to be a privileged child fitting in with 95% of the rest of society. What about the rest of the children who suffer bullying at school, for much more depressing reasons than that they are privileged? This can happen in the state or private sector and is totally separate to any policy decision about whether school fees should be subject to VAT.

 

[Falcon1200]

What about the rest of the children who suffer bullying at school, for much more depressing reasons than that they are privileged?

I agree, but bullying is wrong, whatever the reason and this;

Gosh it must be so hard to be a privileged child fitting in with 95% of the rest of society.

is plain nasty.

 

[Tetchytyke]

the bullying a 'posh kid' will undoubtedly endure after being moved from a private to a state school will be at a different level.

Famously nobody is ever bullied for being poor.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree, but bullying is wrong, whatever the reason and this;



is plain nasty.

Sorry but I do not have any sympathy for your use of this as an argument against charging VAT on school fees. Saying "bullying is wrong" while only saying you're concerned about the (fairly low level) bullying meted out to children who have engaged and privileged parents does not really work. Trying to use it as a reason why their parents shouldn't be subsidised to send them to a better school is not a good argument.

Bullying happens at every level of society and I have to say, being picked on because your parents have a little money and you have better life chances is one of the least egregious forms of it. If I had to be bullied for something about myself, I'd choose that, actually, over being say, fat, ugly, gay, black, stupid, or any other immutable thing which would mark me out as not privileged.

Schools everywhere should aim to stop bullying and merely accepting it as a fact while using it as part of an argument against a government policy you don't like doesn't wash.

 

[nw1]

Not wanting to get into the VAT argument but I have to say I am with @Falcon1200 on the bullying issue.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not wanting to get into the VAT argument but I have to say I am with @Falcon1200 on the bullying issue.

Bullying is always unpleasant.

I'm genuinely not sure what point they are trying to make though. Kids are bullied in private schools. Kids are bullied in state schools.

Kids transferring from private to state school might be bullied- but they also might not be. They might be bullied for being rich- but they also might not be. Depends on the kid, depends on the school.

Kids may also be bullied for being poor. Or for wearing supermarket clothes, or for being gay, or for being ginger, or fat, or skinny, or for wearing glasses, or for not being good at football, or for liking steam trains, or for any number of other reasons.

 

[Cowley]

It might be a good idea if we try and move the discussion back towards the Labour Party in general now rather than going to far down the bullying avenue.

That might be worth a separate thread in itself but with a long running thread about politics you could easily end up with a separate topic for every single policy.

Thanks