Allowed to board by staff but fined

[Stellies]

Hi all,

I'm seeking advice on how to successfully appeal a penalty fare I received recently, as I believe the situation was unfair. Here’s what happened:

I had a return ticket booked from Huntingdon to Finsbury Park on Thameslink. However, due to a misunderstanding, I was dropped off at Peterborough station by mistake (I’m new to the UK and unfamiliar with the area). Since I had an important appointment in London and couldn’t drive back to Huntingdon, I decided to leave from Peterborough. At the station, I tried scanning my ticket, but it didn’t work. I realised then that I should probably ask an attendant for help and information, as I was unsure about what to do as I was at the wrong station (Huntingdon is one stop away from Peterborough). I asked an attendant if I could use the ticket I had and explained my situation. She looked at my ticket and told me it “shouldn’t be a problem,” and then manually opened the barrier to allow me through. She did not mention that I needed to purchase an additional ticket, and I (mistakenly) thought that my ticket was valid for all stops (that's how it works in my home country - I realise that this was wrong now).

During the journey, a ticket inspector scanned my ticket and said it wasn’t valid for the Peterborough to Huntingdon leg. He then took my details and issued a penalty notice, saying “I won’t charge you today,” but he didn’t give me the chance to explain the situation. I didn’t understand what was going on until he handed me the fine, even though I would have happily paid for the extra leg if I’d known that was an option. The entire time he was rude, terse, and did not really explain what was going on. I believe that he was being purposefully opaque, as if I had known I was receiving a fine, given the situation, I would have at the very least have tried to explain the situation to him.

I should add that I use National Rail to commute to work on an almost daily basis and have no issues paying for any leg of any journey - it was an honest mistake that was made worse by being given the incorrect information.

I've looked at the National Rail guidelines, and I believe there are two main issues with how this was handled:

Upon reviewing the National Rail penalty fare guidelines, I believe this penalty fare was issued incorrectly for the following reasons:

1. Misleading Information by a Railway Employee: As noted in the guidelines (Page 11, Section 4), an authorized collector cannot charge a penalty fare if an employee acting on behalf of the operator indicated that the passenger was permitted to board the train. In this instance, the attendant at Peterborough Station indicated that it would not be an issue for me to board the train with my ticket, and thus, I boarded under the impression that I had authority to do so.
   
   
2. Failure to Provide Adequate Explanation and Opportunity to Respond: According to Page 8 of the National Rail guidelines, passengers should expect to be spoken to clearly, to be given an opportunity to explain themselves, and to have the penalty fare process explained. None of these expectations were met during my interaction with the ticket inspector. He was unclear, abrupt, and did not offer me the chance to explain the situation in detail or provide alternative options, such as paying the fare for the portion I had mistakenly traveled without a valid ticket.

Does anyone have experience with appealing in a situation like this? I’d appreciate any advice on how to structure my appeal or if there’s anything specific I should include to increase my chances of success.

Thanks in advance!

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you upload a copy of the Penalty Fare notice with your personal details redacted? This is always the first place to start when seeing if an appeal can be mounted, as there are often mistakes with filling them out which render them unenforceable or void.

 

[Stellies]

Could you upload a copy of the Penalty Fare notice with your personal details redacted? This is always the first place to start when seeing if an appeal can be mounted, as there are often mistakes with filling them out which render them unenforceable or void.

Sure, see attached

 

[John R]

The PF notice reason appears incorrect, in that you did have a ticket, but not for the full length of your journey.

 

[Starmill]

Was this notice given to you on-board a train or at Huntingdon? Did your train stop at Huntingdon if it was on-board?

 

[Stellies]

So how does a almost daily user of railways not know that you need to pay for a leg for which you don't have a ticket?

Would you be able to specifically identify who allowed you to board? Otherwise all you are basing your appeal on is "he said/she said" argument.

A penalty fare exists for this sort of mistakes. The alternative was for the inspector to report you for investigation and that process would have cost you a lot more.

If Railways allow anyone who doesn't have a valid ticket to just pay for the ticket (or portion there of), what is to prevent from everyone trying their luck and not buying tickets at all?

Perhaps more experienced members can advise on how you can challenge on technicalities, but without anything to evidence your permission to board, it will be difficult to prove point 1 above.

And following from that, point 2 is neither here nor there, because (if you can't provr the permission to board), your offence was committed the moment you stepped on the train. The inspectors method of communication will not negate the offence or the PF.

You mentioned quite a few things but I'll try respond appropriately:

1. I travel each day by tapping in and out with my phone. I've not yet had the opportunity to travel much in the UK and this was my first time using this service to travel further.

2. Yes, I'd easily be able to identify who. You also cannot get on the platform without someone physically opening the barriers for you. She was dressed in a uniform of the railway company and was stood at the barrier. There are numerous cameras in the building?

3. The evidence is that I was let through a barrier that is impossible to get through unless you force through it, or with a valid ticket, or by it being opened by a rep.

4. I take your point re: the inspector's communication, I was merely quoting the guidance available online.

Was this notice given to you on-board a train or at Huntingdon? Did your train stop at Huntingdon if it was on-board?

It was given to me between Huntingdon and Peterborough. The penalty notice reads that the journey is from Peterorough to Huntingdon, though this is not correct, as I was travelling to Finsbury Park and did have a valid ticket for the originally planned journey.

The PF notice reason appears incorrect, in that you did have a ticket, but not for the full length of your journey.

Thank you for this, I noticed it too. Shall I add it to my appeal?

 

[185]

Frustratingly, the fare for the shorter journey (Huntingdon) is £35.50 Single. The longer journey is actually cheaper £35.00 Single (Peterborough).

The fare between the two is £5.60 hence the penalty of £105.60. Only error I see on the PF is 'no ticket' which is not strictly true.

 

[Stellies]

Frustratingly, the fare for the shorter journey (Huntingdon) is £35.50 Single. The longer journey is actually cheaper £35.00 Single (Peterborough).

The fare between the two is £5.60 hence the penalty of £105.60. Only error I see on the PF is 'no ticket' which is not strictly true.

Do you think that this may have been why the attendant said that it shouldn't be a problem and let me through?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==

Was this notice given to you on-board a train or at Huntingdon? Did your train stop at Huntingdon if it was on-board?

It was given to me on board between Peterborough and Huntingdon. The train stopped at Huntingdon.

 

[185]

Do you think that this may have been why the attendant said that it shouldn't be a problem and let me through?

It's hard to say, but others will advise if this is worth mentioning in the appeal.

 

[BongoStar]

Was this notice given to you on-board a train or at Huntingdon? Did your train stop at Huntingdon if it was on-board?

It was given to me on board between Peterborough and Huntingdon. The train stopped at Huntingdon.

For the journey between Peterborough and Huntingdon, he did not have a ticket. PF are to be issued to the next station only, unless the passenger explicitly asks for it. So it is not incorrect.

The fact that he had a ticket from the next station to Euston is not relevant. Infact it is no different from someone having no ticket at all from Peterborough to Euston and getting caught between Peterborough and Huntingdon. That person will be issued the same PF, be required to get off at Huntingdon and if they wish to continue, purchase a Huntingdon to Euston ticket.

I should add that I use National Rail to commute to work on an almost daily basis and have no issues paying for any leg of any journey - it was an honest mistake that was made worse by being given the incorrect information.

It would be best not to bring this to their attention if you are still thinking if appealing on any ground. A regular user should know that a ticket from Huntingdon gives no rights at all to board from Peterborough.

You will struggle to prove Point 1 above happened as you say (a case of he said/she said) and Point 2 is neither here nor there as the offense was committed the moment you boarded the train (if you fail to prove permission to board).

 

[Stellies]

For the journey between Peterborough and Huntingdon, he did not have a ticket. PF are to be issued to the next station only, unless the passenger explicitly asks for it. So it is not incorrect.

The fact that he had a ticket from the next station to Euston is not relevant. Infact it is no different from someone having no ticket at all from Peterborough to Euston and getting caught between Peterborough and Huntingdon. That person will be issued the same PF, be required to get off at Huntingdon and if they wish to continue, purchase a Huntingdon to Euston ticket.



It would be best not to bring this to their attention if you are still thinking if appealing on any ground. A regular user should know that a ticket from Huntingdon gives no rights at all to board from Peterborough.

You will struggle to prove Point 1 above happened as you say (a case of he said/she said) and Point 2 is neither here nor there as the offense was committed the moment you boarded the train (if you fail to prove permission to board).

Tried responding to your original message which disappeared. You've posted again. I'm copying and pasting my original reply which is:

You mentioned quite a few things but I'll try respond appropriately:

1. I travel each day by tapping in and out with my phone. I've not yet had the opportunity to travel much in the UK and this was my first time using this service to travel further.

2. Yes, I'd easily be able to identify who. You also cannot get on the platform without someone physically opening the barriers for you and there is only one place where you can enter to reach the platforms. She was dressed in a uniform of the railway company and was stood at the barrier. There are numerous cameras in the building?

3. The evidence is that I was let through a barrier that is impossible to get through unless you force through it, or with a valid ticket, or by it being opened by a rep.

4. I take your point re: the inspector's communication, I was merely quoting the guidance available online.

 

[Gloster]

I am not sure why Euston has come into the question: it reads to me that Finsbury Park was the destination. (This probably doesn’t alter the basic argument in #10.)

 

[Starmill]

So it is not incorrect.

It wasn't issued at Huntingdon so I'm not sure how it's not incorrect.

 

[BongoStar]

It wasn't issued at Huntingdon so I'm not sure how it's not incorrect.

My reading of the PF is that it was issued to OP on train between Peterborough and Huntingdon and authorises him to complete the journey to Huntingdon.

 

[Starmill]

My reading of the PF is that it was issued to OP on train between Peterborough and Huntingdon and authorises him to complete the journey to Huntingdon.

It would say on train if that were the case.

 

[Stellies]

It would say on train if that were the case

Does that mean that there is a error on the penalty?

 

[Snow1964]

Frustratingly, the fare for the shorter journey (Huntingdon) is £35.50 Single. The longer journey is actually cheaper £35.00 Single (Peterborough).

The fare between the two is £5.60 hence the penalty of £105.60. Only error I see on the PF is 'no ticket' which is not strictly true.

Does this mean if you had been sold an excess for the difference, it would have been minus 50p

Instead you were charged the single fare of £5.60 (plus a penalty) as a separate ticket, not the extension. Not sure if this affects the potential outcome.

 

[30907]

It would say on train if that were the case.

Maybe it should be, but Is that invariably the case?
Fairly certain we've seen PFs issued on-train with a station name before.

 

[John R]

Maybe it should be, but Is that invariably the case?
Fairly certain we've seen PFs issued on-train with a station name before.

Yes, by my recollection it usually states the nearest station at which the train is at. In this case there aren’t any between Peterborough and Huntingdon.

I doubt an appeal would succeed on that basis. I’m more interested in whether “no ticket” as the reason might do, particularly in light of the relative costs of the tickets as highlighted earlier.

 

[Stellies]

Yes, by my recollection it usually states the nearest station at which the train is at. In this case there aren’t any between Peterborough and Huntingdon.

I doubt an appeal would succeed on that basis. I’m more interested in whether “no ticket” as the reason might do, particularly in light of the relative costs of the tickets as highlighted earlier.

Would you recommend that when I appeal, then, that I highlight:

1. That the "no ticket" is incorrect as I did have a fully paid return ticket, I just got on at the incorrect station.
2. That the cost of the ticket from Huntingdon is actually more expensive than from Peterborough and so, technically, they are not losing out on any income.

This is all quite new to me and I've never received a fine before so want to be sure that I do it right the first time.

 

[BongoStar]

I don't think that "on train" vs "Huntingdon" is going to win an appeal. Both are acceptable and not always accurate. If anything, in this specific case, the train was physically in Huntingdon area (RTT says arrival at 14:57).

Don't want to discourage OP on "no ticket" basis of appeal, but technially he had no ticket for the Peterborough to Huntingdon leg, for which this PF relates to. Him having Huntingdon to elsewhere is not relevant, because even if he didn't have it, the PF issued would have been the same.

If such appeals were to be upheld, what would prevent anyone from short-faring to the last station on any multi-stop journey by just buying a ticket for the last hop.

An appeal on basis of no loss to revenue might have a better chance.

 

[Haywain]

Frustratingly, the fare for the shorter journey (Huntingdon) is £35.50 Single. The longer journey is actually cheaper £35.00 Single (Peterborough).

The fare between the two is £5.60 hence the penalty of £105.60. Only error I see on the PF is 'no ticket' which is not strictly true.

I'm not sure that comparisons between single fares are useful when the OP held a return ticket, one for which we don't know the route or the exact ticket type.

 

[furlong]

You will struggle to prove Point 1 above happened as you say (a case of he said/she said)

Under the regulations, the passenger doesn't need to prove it - the train company can try to disprove it if it chooses to, otherwise an appeal on such a point succeeds. (You'll need to quote the regulations at them to remind them of this.) It should be straightforward for the train company to obtain the ticket scan data, and identify who opened the barrier right after and to confirm whether or not they gave permission to travel and then decide whether or not to oppose the appeal.

What was the precise ticket held? How much was paid for it? (A typical ticket for a Sunday is cheaper for the longer distance so giving permission might be a rational thing to do, but they ought to have added an annotation to the ticket to avoid exactly what happened.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Under the regulations, the passenger doesn't need to prove it - the train company can try to disprove it if it chooses to, otherwise an appeal on such a point succeeds.

In theory and not in practice, as we have found several times.

 

[Stellies]

Hi all,

Thanks for your help.

My appeal was rejected, though I feel there are circumstances that are incorrect.

1. Ticket Purchasing Facilities:
   They said that since Peterborough station had ticket purchasing facilities available (like a ticket office or vending machines), I should have bought a valid ticket for the entire journey before boarding. Because I didn’t do that, they said I broke the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT).
2. Penalty Fare Regulations:
   They explained that Penalty Fares aren’t an accusation of fare evasion but are higher fares that apply if you board without a valid ticket. Since Peterborough is a Penalty Fare station, they said I should have been aware of the consequences of boarding without the right ticket.
3. Staff Permission:
   I told them that a staff member at Peterborough told me it "shouldn’t be a problem" for me to take the train with my original ticket, but they rejected this because I couldn’t provide proof that the staff gave me permission. They said all staff are trained not to give that kind of advice and without proof, they wouldn’t accept this as a valid reason.
4. Mitigating Circumstances:
   I mentioned that I’m new to the UK and still getting used to the transport system, but they said this wasn’t enough to overturn the penalty. According to them, it was still my responsibility to make sure I had the correct ticket before traveling.
5. No Breach of Discretion Guidelines:
   They reviewed the actions of the ticket inspector and concluded that he followed the rules properly, so there were no grounds to overturn the penalty based on how it was issued.

Overall, they rejected my appeal because they believe I had the opportunity to buy the right ticket, didn’t provide enough proof that staff gave me permission, and felt the mitigating circumstances weren’t strong enough.

There was an error in their letter, however, as they said I was two stops away, not one, which is incorrect. They also did not take into consideration the fact that the station that I left from was 40 pence cheaper for the total journey as opposed to the correct journey. Does anyone know if I am able to get a history of when the ticket was scanned which can show that it was rejected. Also, is it possible to get security footage of me asking for help and then being allowed through the barrier by the attendant?

 

[Cuthbert]

Hi all,

Thanks for your help.

My appeal was rejected, though I feel there are circumstances that are incorrect.

1. Ticket Purchasing Facilities:
   They said that since Peterborough station had ticket purchasing facilities available (like a ticket office or vending machines), I should have bought a valid ticket for the entire journey before boarding. Because I didn’t do that, they said I broke the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT).
2. Penalty Fare Regulations:
   They explained that Penalty Fares aren’t an accusation of fare evasion but are higher fares that apply if you board without a valid ticket. Since Peterborough is a Penalty Fare station, they said I should have been aware of the consequences of boarding without the right ticket.
3. Staff Permission:
   I told them that a staff member at Peterborough told me it "shouldn’t be a problem" for me to take the train with my original ticket, but they rejected this because I couldn’t provide proof that the staff gave me permission. They said all staff are trained not to give that kind of advice and without proof, they wouldn’t accept this as a valid reason.
4. Mitigating Circumstances:
   I mentioned that I’m new to the UK and still getting used to the transport system, but they said this wasn’t enough to overturn the penalty. According to them, it was still my responsibility to make sure I had the correct ticket before traveling.
5. No Breach of Discretion Guidelines:
   They reviewed the actions of the ticket inspector and concluded that he followed the rules properly, so there were no grounds to overturn the penalty based on how it was issued.

Overall, they rejected my appeal because they believe I had the opportunity to buy the right ticket, didn’t provide enough proof that staff gave me permission, and felt the mitigating circumstances weren’t strong enough.

There was an error in their letter, however, as they said I was two stops away, not one, which is incorrect. They also did not take into consideration the fact that the station that I left from was 40 pence cheaper for the total journey as opposed to the correct journey. Does anyone know if I am able to get a history of when the ticket was scanned which can show that it was rejected. Also, is it possible to get security footage of me asking for help and then being allowed through the barrier by the attendant?

Anyone with a TKK device or similar can.
Will show the history of scans via gates or hand held.
Will also show rejection and reason for this.
If it has a barcode

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi all,

Thanks for your help.

My appeal was rejected, though I feel there are circumstances that are incorrect.

1. Ticket Purchasing Facilities:
   They said that since Peterborough station had ticket purchasing facilities available (like a ticket office or vending machines), I should have bought a valid ticket for the entire journey before boarding. Because I didn’t do that, they said I broke the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT).

That is correct, you did need to purchase an additional ticket to cover the portion not covered by your ticket regardless of any other circumstances.

1. Penalty Fare Regulations:
   They explained that Penalty Fares aren’t an accusation of fare evasion but are higher fares that apply if you board without a valid ticket. Since Peterborough is a Penalty Fare station, they said I should have been aware of the consequences of boarding without the right ticket.

They are entitled to say that as you did, to my knowledge, not raise any appeal relating to signage, so they are effectively saying here "the station has signage and adequate warning you may be Penalty Fared".

1. Staff Permission:
   I told them that a staff member at Peterborough told me it "shouldn’t be a problem" for me to take the train with my original ticket, but they rejected this because I couldn’t provide proof that the staff gave me permission. They said all staff are trained not to give that kind of advice and without proof, they wouldn’t accept this as a valid reason.

Posters may come along and tell you that the appeal is supposed to investigate this and accept your word on this. This is, in theory true. However, this is problematic because anyone can say "well I was told I could board without a ticket" without evidencing that. In reality, any investigation will be:
- Asking you to describe/name the member of staff
- The member of staff being asked "weeks ago this guy got a penalty fare and said you let him through without a ticket and it would be fine - is that true?" to which their answer will inevitably be "that was weeks ago, and I see hundreds of people a day...what guy?" or "I wouldn't say that".
- therefore this avenue is self-defeating

1. Mitigating Circumstances:
   I mentioned that I’m new to the UK and still getting used to the transport system, but they said this wasn’t enough to overturn the penalty. According to them, it was still my responsibility to make sure I had the correct ticket before traveling.

That seems reasonable.

1. No Breach of Discretion Guidelines:
   They reviewed the actions of the ticket inspector and concluded that he followed the rules properly, so there were no grounds to overturn the penalty based on how it was issued.

The penalty fare was correctly made out and I don't see any procedural issues with it.

Overall, they rejected my appeal because they believe I had the opportunity to buy the right ticket, didn’t provide enough proof that staff gave me permission, and felt the mitigating circumstances weren’t strong enough.

There was an error in their letter, however, as they said I was two stops away, not one, which is incorrect.

Nothing turns on this.

They also did not take into consideration the fact that the station that I left from was 40 pence cheaper for the total journey as opposed to the correct journey.

Nothing turns on this unless you argued under compelling circumstances that you shouldn't have to pay the penalty fare for this reason - was this part of your argument?

Does anyone know if I am able to get a history of when the ticket was scanned which can show that it was rejected.

What would this show that would assist your appeal?

Also, is it possible to get security footage of me asking for help and then being allowed through the barrier by the attendant?

You could certainly ask for it, if the footage is still available. But it will have no sound, so its utility may be limited.

 

[GodAtum]

Story is a bit confusing. How did the ticket inspector know you got on at Peterborough. Did they check between Peterborough - Huntingdon, or after Huntingdon?

 

[Stellies]

That is correct, you did need to purchase an additional ticket to cover the portion not covered by your ticket regardless of any other circumstances.


They are entitled to say that as you did, to my knowledge, not raise any appeal relating to signage, so they are effectively saying here "the station has signage and adequate warning you may be Penalty Fared".


Posters may come along and tell you that the appeal is supposed to investigate this and accept your word on this. This is, in theory true. However, this is problematic because anyone can say "well I was told I could board without a ticket" without evidencing that. In reality, any investigation will be:
- Asking you to describe/name the member of staff
- The member of staff being asked "weeks ago this guy got a penalty fare and said you let him through without a ticket and it would be fine - is that true?" to which their answer will inevitably be "that was weeks ago, and I see hundreds of people a day...what guy?" or "I wouldn't say that".
- therefore this avenue is self-defeating


That seems reasonable.


The penalty fare was correctly made out and I don't see any procedural issues with it.


Nothing turns on this.


Nothing turns on this unless you argued under compelling circumstances that you shouldn't have to pay the penalty fare for this reason - was this part of your argument?


What would this show that would assist your appeal?


You could certainly ask for it, if the footage is still available. But it will have no sound, so its utility may be limited.

Thank you for this, very helpful. Yes, I did argue under compelling circumstances that the rail company incurred no financial losses, but they did not acknowledge this in the response letter.

I want to get the scanning history as it shows that the ticket would have been rejected just prior to me being let through the barrier (with a time stamp).

I want to get the footage as two to three seconds after the ticket was rejected, I asked the attendant for help, who let me through. This and the above point will counteract their statement that staff are provided with training not to give such advice.

I also have photographic proof that it is physically impossible to go through the barrier without being allowed through by a person, as they are the glass type which would break if I pushed through them. This is the only way to access this platform (I've uploaded a pic) You will note on the right of the picture (where the pink bit is) is where a staff member would stand (under the information sign). This is where the women who let me through was standing.

 

[Cuthbert]

Thank you for this, very helpful. Yes, I did argue under compelling circumstances that the rail company incurred no financial losses, but they did not acknowledge this in the response letter.

I want to get the scanning history as it shows that the ticket would have been rejected just prior to me being let through the barrier (with a time stamp).

I want to get the footage as two to three seconds after the ticket was rejected, I asked the attendant for help, who let me through. This and the above point will counteract their statement that staff are provided with training not to give such advice.

I also have photographic proof that it is physically impossible to go through the barrier without being allowed through by a person, as they are the glass type which would break if I pushed through them. This is the only way to access this platform (I've uploaded a pic) You will note on the right of the picture (where the pink bit is) is where a staff member would stand (under the information sign). This is where the women who let me through was standing.

You will have to get a DSAR for the footage. Normally footage is held for 21 days depending on company.
Time span of 30 mins or less is handy. The scan on your ticket should give a very good estimate.