Class 800 overshot Chippenham station (29/09)

[Boilinthebag]

It might be worth referring to SS2 and the definitions of shunting/wrong direction movements for this (could be one or both for this) This type of movement involves rules in SS2/TW7 and TW1 possibly.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes and this is not one of those circumstances.

I should know because I have reversed a train before for a considerable distance, in one of those permitted circumstances.

I thought that reversing a train after an overshoot was TOC-dependent? I know some that are “forward-only” & others that will allow it. The rule book evidently allows it.

 

[43066]

You would like to know that reversing is allowed by the Rulebook under certain circumstances .
Even if it was not one of them, unlikely driver would be sacked .
Meeting ( perhaps more than one ) with managers(s) without tea and biscuits , yes , but sacking very unlikely .

For driving a train backwards in a situation not permitted? That’s going to be treated very seriously.

I thought that reversing a train after an overshoot was TOC-dependent? I know some that are “forward-only” & others that will allow it. The rule book evidently allows it.

Setting back - as distinct from reversing - is dependent on the signaller allowing you to do it, and very much involves changing ends.

 

[Llanigraham]

In a multiple unit the driver is required to change ends. You're thinking of the rule regarding the maximum distance a driver may be permitted by the signaller to return to the platform after over-running a station.

That is permitted in the rule book, a maximum distance of 400m.

But isn't that exactly what happened in this case?
Therefore what was done was perfectly correct.

 

[TurboMan]

I thought that reversing a train after an overshoot was TOC-dependent? I know some that are “forward-only” & others that will allow it. The rule book evidently allows it.

It's not TOC dependent, it's rolling stock dependent. TW7 says:

If you are authorised to make a wrong-direction movement, you must drive the train from the cab at the leading end of the movement, if there is one.

If there is no cab at the leading end of the movement, you can drive from another cab as long as a competent person is available to control the movement.

 

[Horizon22]

Setting back - as distinct from reversing - is dependent on the signaller allowing you to do it, and very much involves changing ends.

Yes I was discussing setting back here, not reversing. Of course in this discussion, some were not aware of the technical language involved and were presuming one and the same.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==

It's not TOC dependent, it's rolling stock dependent. TW7 says:

I think however that even if it is dependent and physically allowed, some TOCs disallow it regardless and as states have a “forward only” policy and would not allow setting back.

 

[theageofthetra]

My first clue was the non-functioning displays, turns out driver was preoccupied with sorting that and the non-functioning FMS in general and misjudged the braking.

Exactly what I thought.

 

[fishwomp]

I’d be very surprised if it was as simple as ‘forgetting’, given every GWR service in the Up direction is currently booked to call.

I was wondering who was crewing the Oxford-Bristol services: is it Bristol based crew that have just learnt the route to Oxford, or Oxford crew that have just learnt it to Bristol. I was wondering having seen a few workings of Oxford-Didcot as ECS over summer - rather than because of this incident.

 

[High Dyke]

I must say, it's been fun seeing the various comments here. Those that know where to find the information can do so, if they choose. Suffice to say an station incident occurred and the matter was dealt with by the TOC and signaller/control as appropriate.

As an aside, if you are overcharged when grocery shopping, do you ever wonder what happens to the cashier after you've had the matter rectified and you have left the store? I don't!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I was wondering who was crewing the Oxford-Bristol services: is it Bristol based crew that have just learnt the route to Oxford, or Oxford crew that have just learnt it to Bristol. I was wondering having seen a few workings of Oxford-Didcot as ECS over summer - rather than because of this incident.

For all we know, they’re changing crews at Swindon.

 

[12LDA28C]

But isn't that exactly what happened in this case?
Therefore what was done was perfectly correct.

Indeed, it seems so. I was merely trying to reference the significance of the 400m measurement which was being referred to in relation to something else.

 

[OscarH]

As an aside, if you are overcharged when grocery shopping, do you ever wonder what happens to the cashier after you've had the matter rectified and you have left the store? I don't!

If they overcharge then I'd assume a handshake

If they underchange on the other hand...

(this should be read with the appropriate amount of sarcasm)

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I was wondering who was crewing the Oxford-Bristol services: is it Bristol based crew that have just learnt the route to Oxford, or Oxford crew that have just learnt it to Bristol. I was wondering having seen a few workings of Oxford-Didcot as ECS over summer - rather than because of this incident.

Or neither.

 

[Class45]

As an aside, if you are overcharged when grocery shopping, do you ever wonder what happens to the cashier after you've had the matter rectified and you have left the store? I don't!

There's probably a cash register enthusiasts forum on the web somewhere where they discuss such things in minute detail

 

[Merle Haggard]

When I worked on the railway (I'm long retired) this interest did puzzle me.

I think the answer is that the railway's production line is visible to the general public, unlike almost every other industry (buses are similar to railways, though).
I'm sure that, if the public could watch the production line at a baked beans canning factory there would be just as many questions/criticisms/suggestions about the faults of the process and personnel. But they can't...

 

[InkyScrolls]

To clear up some misconceptions (and I am actually a driver, so I do know what I'm talking about!):-

• This incident could be either driver error or due to poor adhesion, there's no certain evidence either way
• Following an over-run a train may make a wrong direction move back to the station with permission from the signalman, but not if more than 440 yds (400 m)
• The driver will most definitely NOT have 'reversed' but will have changed ends and driven from what had been the rear
• For movements where the train is being driven from other than the leading cab, the movement must be controlled by someone competent in the traction and the route, i.e. another driver acting as shunter
• There is NO chance that the conductor was acting as the driver's eyes - this would result in sacking for both of them
• Some companies (including Northern) make a distinction between 'driving from other than the leading cab' and 'propelling', but the distinction is not relevant here

 

[Surreytraveller]

I was wondering how prevalent 'propelling' is these days. Obviously freight going into yards, but with shunters present, but are there any instances of passenger stock, either ECS or otherwise?

 

[sh24]

I was wondering how prevalent 'propelling' is these days. Obviously freight going into yards, but with shunters present, but are there any instances of passenger stock, either ECS or otherwise?

Night Riviera at Penzance ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

I was wondering how prevalent 'propelling' is these days. Obviously freight going into yards, but with shunters present, but are there any instances of passenger stock, either ECS or otherwise?

It's pretty rare. One example is if the driving controls are defective in the leading cab of a MU, and you need to clear the line.

 

[officewalla]

Incident currently under investigation so everything else is speculation unless you are the driver, signaller or control staff involved.

 

[High Dyke]

There's probably a cash register enthusiasts forum on the web somewhere where they discuss such things in minute detail

Quite probably.

 

[Tester]

When I worked on the railway (I'm long retired) this interest did puzzle me.

I think the answer is that the railway's production line is visible to the general public, unlike almost every other industry (buses are similar to railways, though).
I'm sure that, if the public could watch the production line at a baked beans canning factory there would be just as many questions/criticisms/suggestions about the faults of the process and personnel. But they can't...

As Sir Peter Parker (ex British Railways Board chairman) once famously said, 'On the railway, every day is an Open Day'.

 

[Towers]

When I worked on the railway (I'm long retired) this interest did puzzle me.

I think the answer is that the railway's production line is visible to the general public, unlike almost every other industry (buses are similar to railways, though).
I'm sure that, if the public could watch the production line at a baked beans canning factory there would be just as many questions/criticisms/suggestions about the faults of the process and personnel. But they can't...

It’s exactly the same reason that production companies make and viewers watch things like Air Crash Investigation; people find process and procedure interesting, and there is curiosity as the cause when it goes wrong. It isn’t morbid or intrusive, it’s just human nature!

I’ve never really understood why some folk on this forum get so upset about it, it’s perfectly understandable for a discussion to happen when an operating incident has very obviously happened!

 

[357]

I’ve never really understood why some folk on this forum get so upset about it, it’s perfectly understandable for a discussion to happen when an operating incident has very obviously happened!

I understand the ones that get irritated at the automatic accusations against the driver or staff involved.

I have no time for the "Rail UK Accident Investigation Branch" or the Soviet-esque "No discussion is permitted until the report is published" brigades.

 

[Falcon1200]

I was wondering how prevalent 'propelling' is these days. Obviously freight going into yards, but with shunters present, but are there any instances of passenger stock, either ECS or otherwise?

Caledonian Sleepers, with passengers on board, at Edinburgh and Carstairs.

 

[12LDA28C]

I was wondering how prevalent 'propelling' is these days. Obviously freight going into yards, but with shunters present, but are there any instances of passenger stock, either ECS or otherwise?

Propelling movements of (empty) passenger stock take place regularly on maintenance depots up and down the country.

 

[43066]

I was wondering how prevalent 'propelling' is these days. Obviously freight going into yards, but with shunters present, but are there any instances of passenger stock, either ECS or otherwise?

The “Strood Shunt” where a train is driven backwards from the London end cab, so that the driver can bring it back into the platform once it’s cleared the ground signal, with a guard in the country end to observe the starting signal. This was/is done because there’s no way to change ends on non gangwayed stock.

Less common now AIUI given that that 375s are in use on the route.