Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[takno]

The problem is that there are vast areas where public transport is impractical for people to use and it is not practical or sensible to deliver buses to all these places. I for example cannot finish work at 5pm and get home for half past to collect the kids from school and nursery by public transport with the hourly bus. Nor can I sensibly get to work for a 7am start by bus. But I can manage that by car or cycle (it's 6miles and 20-25mins).

If you increase parking charges you stop people travelling to towns who can't sensibly use public transport (I'll be blowed if I'm getting three buses and spending over an hour to travel 6miles - I can walk it in 100mins) and of course there are those who simply won't use pubtra.

I was being slightly tongue in cheek. It is important to recognise in this though that you are trying to change behaviour and service patterns. If more people are pushed to/kept on buses you can start to make the argument for more regular and direct buses.

In terms of supporting people who live in areas where public transport is never going to be an option, it's better to support them directly, for example with a discounted parking pass, rather than just keeping car park prices low generally.

I think there's a reasonable argument for saying that you don't increase public transport prices without imposing at least as large an increase on private cars, and making it clear that that's a policy you plan to stick with. People can then take longer term decisions on car ownership and where they want to live based on the trade-off

 

[ic31420]

All very good points, there is a lot of carrot and stick and chicken and egg.

There are no clear sensible solutions to many problems and issues that are not simple.

I've pondered it a bit today and I think I have sort of concluded - to bring this back on topic, it wouldnt take much of a fare rise, to see me using the bus less. Making the £2 fare £3 would probably do it - it would also write off any ideas of short journeys such as the school run on a wet miserable day.

What I do find annoying is that 10 singles are cheaper than a weekly ticket so people travelling 5 days a week, catching 1 bus each way but 10 tickets a week, with all the inherent faff and time wasted that causes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I do find annoying is that 10 singles are cheaper than a weekly ticket so people travelling 5 days a week, catching 1 bus each way but 10 tickets a week, with all the inherent faff and time wasted that causes.

With tap on tap off contactless there's no such faff and time wasted, though. Surprises me operators haven't pushed that harder - all those singles with a chat with the driver and cash paid and change given must have increased a few PVRs.

 

[johncrossley]

With tap on tap off contactless there's no such faff and time wasted, though. Surprises me operators haven't pushed that harder - all those singles with a chat with the driver and cash paid and change given must have increased a few PVRs.

The problem is the £2 fare costs the same whether you use tap on tap off or pay the driver. The £2 fare should only available where you don't buy the ticket from the driver.

 

[Snex]

If the parking charges go up at the same rate as the bus fares there shouldn't be a problem

You need to start charging first, most out of town retail / supermarkets have no cost and you can't really force a private business to charge either without them gaining something.

Upping car parks in town centres will just result in more people going out of town, and people relying on public transport being shuttled to a ghost town, not as if that hasn't happened already in a lot of places.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The problem is the £2 fare costs the same whether you use tap on tap off or pay the driver. The £2 fare should only available where you don't buy the ticket from the driver.

Not always, a tap on, tap off fare on First York is £1.50.

 

[yorkie]

Not always, a tap on, tap off fare on First York is £1.50.

For all journeys? Or just short ones, and if so, is there a zonal map? When did this start? I tried it a few months ago and was still charged £2.00

 

[YorkRailFan]

For all journeys? Or just short ones, and if so, is there a zonal map? When did this start? I tried it a few months ago and was still charged £2.00

Only pay for what you use - when you Tap on and Tap off for one journey, we’ll work out the single fare based on distance and you’ll only pay for that single fare journey at £1.50 or max price of £2.

Tap on Tap off

No need to choose the ticket to buy upfront, simply Tap on with the driver and Tap off on the dedicated reader as you get off on every journey.

www.firstbus.co.uk

Seemingly most journeys. No idea when it started, fares differ slightly on Park & Ride. Couldn't find a zonal map, unless the £1.50 fare is only valid in the All York Day Ticket Zone which excludes Stamford Bridge.

 

[johncrossley]

For all journeys? Or just short ones, and if so, is there a zonal map? When did this start? I tried it a few months ago and was still charged £2.00

Ticket prices

We have every kind of bus ticket to suit your journey, whether that's a single ticket, day ticket or even Tap on Tap off technology, we can help you enjoy cheap and stress-free journeys across West Yorkshire. For York Park & Ride fare information, please click here. %%TICKET_SELECT%%z41,1821%%

www.firstbus.co.uk

Valid for any Single journey across York.
Adult ticket prices vary from £1.50 (when you Tap on and Tap off) to the max price of £2.00.
Proof of age may be required (e.g. Drivers license, 11-16 or 16-18 YOzone card).

Although this doesn't definitively answer the question, it gives a strong indication. It says "from £1.50", indicating that it could be more, but it looks like that if you don't use Tap on and Tap off (even if you use the App) then the £1.50 option isn't available.

So that is some kind of progress in getting people not to pay the driver, I suppose.

 

[yorkie]

It was back in May and it was a very short journey between Holgate and the railway station, if I remember correctly, so if that costs £2, then I wonder how short the journey would have to be to qualify for the £1.50 rate!!!

 

[Joe Paxton]

The problem is the £2 fare costs the same whether you use tap on tap off or pay the driver. The £2 fare should only available where you don't buy the ticket from the driver.

I very much hope the bus fare cap scheme continues, though it's not hard to imagine the need for a increase in the cap (e.g. £2.50). I guess there are other slightly more complex implementations, but as soon as one starts introducing say different levels of cap by distance (even if just two or three levels) then part of the joyful simplicity would be lost.

However, I hadn't previously considered johncrossley's idea (as above) for a premium to be paid for tickets bought from the driver as a transaction - or alternatively one could term it a discount for those who use tap-on tap-off. I'd be open to that, though I appreciate there'd be arguments against in terms of 'social two-tiering' (to coin an awkward phrase).

That said, tap-on tap-off is only implemented in some areas / by some bus companies and not in/by others. If a bus doesn't have the tap-off facility then basically on presenting a contactless card (or payment device) the passenger has to have a transaction with the driver, however minimal, in order to board - unless one is to assume (a la London) that presentation upon boarding by a passenger of a contactless card is solely payment of a single capped fare just for that passenger (i.e. each paying passenger would a contactless card of their own, or otherwise a mobile ticket or possibly smart ticket etc).

 

[317 forever]

It's too early to scrap the fare cap yet. There should be annual reviews to find out if bus usage is back to pre-Covid patronage.
Bus Centre of Excellence website states,
"The number of local bus passenger journeys in England saw an increase of 0.5 billion (19.3%) to 3.4 billion in the year ending March 2023. This was lower than before the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic when passenger journeys in the year ending March 2020 for England were 4.1 billion"

Bus Statistics — Bus Centre of Excellence

www.buscentreofexcellence.org.uk

It'll be interesting how many journeys were made in year ending March 2024. If recovery is proceeding well, then I'm not ruling out a £2.50 fare cap from 1st January 2025.

Maybe such an increase, or reduction in fare cap, will be in the Budget on October 30th.

If so, it will probably be leaked/rumoured/denied in the previous weekend papers and interviews.

 

[DDB]

I think it is a politically high profile enough thing that it will have to be mentioned in the budget, if it wasn't I'm sure there would be a question about it.

 

[gingerheid]

It's a shame that a potentially useful scheme has been slightly bungled so that we will never know how useful it could have been. Although the scheme has actually run for quite a long time, there has never been a point where bus operators have known that it would last long enough into the future for it to be included in any kind of planning decisions. (And it has also co-incided with a period where there was a shortage of drivers, which didn't help.)

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's a shame that a potentially useful scheme has been slightly bungled so that we will never know how useful it could have been. Although the scheme has actually run for quite a long time, there has never been a point where bus operators have known that it would last long enough into the future for it to be included in any kind of planning decisions. (And it has also co-incided with a period where there was a shortage of drivers, which didn't help.)

Whilst it would have been great for bus operators to know the scheme would last at least until the end of December 2024 when it started in January 2023, I think the realpolitik is such that actually this was highly unlikely to happen under the previous government - rather, despite there having been a slightly haphazard process of extensions to the scheme, I'd argue that over time it has become embedded as something of an expectation amongst passengers. As a result, I really do feel that some kind of bus fare cap scheme really does have to continue into and through 2025... one that hopefully will provide a longer term clarity to help operators plan ahead and promote accordingly.

Also, for what it's worth, in terms of future planning, the previous government made an announcement in May 2023 which extended the scheme (which I think at the time was due conclude at the end of June '23) through to the end of November 2024, albeit with the cap being raised to £2.50 from the beginning of November 2023 - then later in October 2023 the raising of the cap to £2.50 was rescinded alongside the previous government's announcement cancelling HS2 phase 2, at which time the bus fare cap scheme was also extended for another month to the end of December 2024.

 

[JamesT]

I very much hope the bus fare cap scheme continues, though it's not hard to imagine the need for a increase in the cap (e.g. £2.50). I guess there are other slightly more complex implementations, but as soon as one starts introducing say different levels of cap by distance (even if just two or three levels) then part of the joyful simplicity would be lost.

However, I hadn't previously considered johncrossley's idea (as above) for a premium to be paid for tickets bought from the driver as a transaction - or alternatively one could term it a discount for those who use tap-on tap-off. I'd be open to that, though I appreciate there'd be arguments against in terms of 'social two-tiering' (to coin an awkward phrase).

That said, tap-on tap-off is only implemented in some areas / by some bus companies and not in/by others. If a bus doesn't have the tap-off facility then basically on presenting a contactless card (or payment device) the passenger has to have a transaction with the driver, however minimal, in order to board - unless one is to assume (a la London) that presentation upon boarding by a passenger of a contactless card is solely payment of a single capped fare just for that passenger (i.e. each paying passenger would a contactless card of their own, or otherwise a mobile ticket or possibly smart ticket etc).

I wonder how tap on/off would be structured in Oxford with our multiple companies. Currently Oxford Bus Company offer it, but that will only apply to journeys taken with them. There is the Smartzone area which offers tickets valid on multiple operators, but that requires buying up front. The day ticket is currently £4.80, so you would need to take 3 or 4 buses to make it worthwhile. (Blackbird Leys to Cowley Centre is currently £1.50, so there are some fares under the cap even here). The interoperable tickets are undercut by the single operator ones. I usually buy a Stagecoach Oxford Flexi5 to get 5 day tickets for £17.

The presence of the cap has resulted in me buying more singles, previously the cost of a single into town was getting to the £3 mark so buying a day ticket was almost always worthwhile. Especially when one of the companies interpreted day ticket meaning 24 hours so you could get 3 days commuting out of 2 day tickets. If the cap went away or increased markedly then it would be back to more period tickets. (Or being less lazy and cycling more)

 

[johncrossley]

I wonder how tap on/off would be structured in Oxford with our multiple companies. Currently Oxford Bus Company offer it, but that will only apply to journeys taken with them. There is the Smartzone area which offers tickets valid on multiple operators, but that requires buying up front. The day ticket is currently £4.80, so you would need to take 3 or 4 buses to make it worthwhile. (Blackbird Leys to Cowley Centre is currently £1.50, so there are some fares under the cap even here). The interoperable tickets are undercut by the single operator ones. I usually buy a Stagecoach Oxford Flexi5 to get 5 day tickets for £17.

The presence of the cap has resulted in me buying more singles, previously the cost of a single into town was getting to the £3 mark so buying a day ticket was almost always worthwhile. Especially when one of the companies interpreted day ticket meaning 24 hours so you could get 3 days commuting out of 2 day tickets. If the cap went away or increased markedly then it would be back to more period tickets. (Or being less lazy and cycling more)

In the Leicester "Flexi Area", you are charged the single operator cap if you only use one company, otherwise you are charged the multi-operator cap. Presumably Oxford could work like this.

Tap on Tap off — Leicester Buses

www.leicesterbuses.co.uk

Travelling in the Leicester Flexi Area? Travel with ease and peace of mind, knowing that you will receive the ‘best value’ adult fare on all bus companies in the network.​

Simply “tap on” your contactless card or phone (with Google or Apple Pay enabled) on the ticket machine when you board the bus and “tap off” on the Tap off Reader when you alight, and your single fare will automatically be calculated. It’s as easy as that!

• If you make additional journeys throughout the same day, your payment will be capped at the adult day ticket price.
• If you make additional journeys throughout the week, your price will be capped at the adult week ticket price.
• No matter how many trips you make and which bus company you travel with, you will receive the best value fare.

No need to worry about having the correct change or having to buy a ticket upfront. Simply “tap on” and “tap off” as you travel.

Single Operator Capping​

If you are travelling with only one bus company within the Leicester Flexi area your fare will be capped at the best value far for that bus company

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the Leicester "Flexi Area", you are charged the single operator cap if you only use one company, otherwise you are charged the multi-operator cap. Presumably Oxford could work like this.

It's not spectacularly hard to have logic that works through a day's journeys for each individual once all services have finished for the day and works out the combination of the various caps and singles that gives you the lowest price, to be honest, particularly given that in the vast majority of cases bus single fares are dead simple, i.e. "one fare per vehicle journey", so things like splits and through fares aren't generally applicable.

 

[gc4946]

If the fare cap is retained, perhaps increased to £2.50, in future it could be available only by tapping on/off, or single tickets loaded on bus companies' apps

 

[jon0844]

It needs to be kept as simple as possible, whatever price is decided. Doing something to allow the use of more than one bus within a certain time would be a nice aspiration.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If the fare cap is to be retained it needs to be simple and straightforward.

I'd have no issue with operators charging a higher cash fare to reflect the additional costs of cash handling. But I'd have more of an issue with tickets being tied to specific operator apps.

The tap-and-go system Arriva use in Merseyside is good.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The tap-and-go system Arriva use in Merseyside is good.

Pushing towards a "tap and cap" system is definitely a good idea - it speeds up operation which makes the service more attractive. London buses with Oyster move as fast as conducted ones ever did, whereas local buses elsewhere are glacial as everyone has a discussion about where they're going.

 

[Man of Kent]

Tap and cap will come as part of Project Coral, a largely government funded project which is being led by Transport for West Midlands. It should hit some milestones this autumn, but it will not be up and running for 1 January, certainly not on a nationwide basis. DfT has effectively forbidden local authorities from developing their own scheme, with a directive that Bus Service Improvement Plan funding cannot be used for technological ticket initiatives.

 

[Tetchytyke]

DfT has effectively forbidden local authorities from developing their own scheme, with a directive that Bus Service Improvement Plan funding cannot be used for technological ticket initiatives

On one hand, that makes sense to prevent every region doing their own thing.

On the other, it’s the DfT…

 

[thejuggler]

In our area £2 cap appears to be successful to the point my wife has tried to use the bus for a 3 mile commute and it is impossible as at 8am every bus is full.

We are back to sitting in rush hour traffic.

 

[Ghostbus]

Raising it even to just £2.50 means it would start to become cheaper to buy a day ticket if you are only going to X and back. It would depend on where you are and who the operator is.

Cue lots of confusion among passengers and time wasting driver chat, and therefore a resumption of general whinging of the form, ooh, aren't buses complicated, let's just nationalize them all. Because the state never makes things complicated for citizens just looking to get from A to B.

I'd be amazed if there was a single local bus operator in the UK who doesn't have an adult single fare below £2, even if it just a stop or two. In my city it gets you half way across one side and back, for £3.40. A taxi will charge almost that amount just for turning up at your door, and another quid to go half a mile.

Bus companies don't like telling people about these super cheap single fares, because they undermine the benefit of a day ticket (usually set just below the price of a return trip into town). The £2 fare of course only made this worse.

So for at least as long as this national subsidy lasts in some form, don't be surprised if you don't get the cheapest fare unless you actually state your destination (and the bus company has a robust driver training and auditing programme).

 

[WelshBluebird]

Raising it even to just £2.50 means it would start to become cheaper to buy a day ticket if you are only going to X and back. It would depend on where you are and who the operator is.

This is where contactless tap on (and maybe tap off) with daily capping comes in.

I'd be amazed if there was a single local bus operator in the UK who doesn't have an adult single fare below £2,

Plenty don't! Even before the cap in Bristol the regular single for first buses was £2. There was a 3 stop hop too but that was scrapped due to people taking the mick and trying to go further on the ticket.

Bus companies don't like telling people about these super cheap single fares, because they undermine the benefit of a day ticket (usually set just below the price of a return trip into town). The £2 fare of course only made this worse.

This may have been true in the past (personally I think you are being way too paranoid mind you, but let's ignore that for now). However with tap on tap off systems and daily capping none of what you said applies at all.

 

[takno]

Raising it even to just £2.50 means it would start to become cheaper to buy a day ticket if you are only going to X and back. It would depend on where you are and who the operator is.

Cue lots of confusion among passengers and time wasting driver chat, and therefore a resumption of general whinging of the form, ooh, aren't buses complicated, let's just nationalize them all. Because the state never makes things complicated for citizens just looking to get from A to B.

I'd be amazed if there was a single local bus operator in the UK who doesn't have an adult single fare below £2, even if it just a stop or two. In my city it gets you half way across one side and back, for £3.40. A taxi will charge almost that amount just for turning up at your door, and another quid to go half a mile.

Bus companies don't like telling people about these super cheap single fares, because they undermine the benefit of a day ticket (usually set just below the price of a return trip into town). The £2 fare of course only made this worse.

So for at least as long as this national subsidy lasts in some form, don't be surprised if you don't get the cheapest fare unless you actually state your destination (and the bus company has a robust driver training and auditing programme).

Edinburgh hasn't got any fares below 2 quid. We don't have the 2 quid cap in Scotland anyway, but 2 quid has been the flat fare here for a while

 

[Tetchytyke]

In urban areas a flat fare makes more sense. A small number of people travelling short distances will be worse off, but the advantages outweigh that disadvantage.

I really like the Arriva Merseyside tap-and-go system. You just place your card on the machine and at the end of the day they tot up what you've spent. You don't need to state your destination, you don't get a ticket, and you don't need to tap off at the end. The Arriva buses are noticeably quicker at boarding these days.

 

[miklcct]

In urban areas a flat fare makes more sense. A small number of people travelling short distances will be worse off, but the advantages outweigh that disadvantage.

In small urban areas a flat fare make sense, but for an urban area as large as London, it heavily penalises short journeys while subsidies long journeys, especially in an environment where some buses run express.

As a result I tend to avoid making short journeys if I can, unless I reach a daily cap, to the extent that I even avoid visiting shops which requires a connecting bus journey from a rail station unless I can cycle there.