Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Are there any figures of how much it is costing the tax payer and whether buses are busier as a result?

 

[WibbleWobble]

This is why most sensible operators start the loop at the first unique stop and have one fare stage for the that section.

If you then get on before the loop before it's terminus, it doesn't really matter where you tap off, you will be charged to the end anyway.

If you get on at the start of the loop or after, then you are boarding in the "right" direction as far as the ticket machine is concerned

Start of the loop is where a trip end/start should take place, certainly where Ticketer is being used. If a passenger is using Tap On Tap Off, then getting off on what is the second trip wouldn't matter as long as those stops are included in the stop list for the direction the passenger is travelling in. Otherwise, if the terminus is elsewhere on the loop, a passenger travelling from the start of the loop would automatically be charged twice.

 

[Ghostbus]

It could deliver a massive hit to the economy if this is scrapped without thought to the consequences. I used it plenty of times to visit places of interest near and far.

One trip to a historic market town an hour up the road seemed incredibly good value, the £8 round trip comparing well with the less than a tenner home cooked roast dinner in an independent cafe (not remotely a greasy spoon, clearly thriving on being good value and good food), and spending another twenty in local independent gift shops (including knowingly paying massively over the odds for gifts in the local museum, solely because I knew the money was going to local artists and the council coffers).

The most expensive items on the day, the whole trip costing me one whole day's pay all told, were alcoholic drinks. The lion's share of that being government taxes of one form or another (duty, minimum wage, rates).

As far as I can tell, that fare should probably be nearly £10 to a savvy customer who knows to buy the two adjacent operator's day tickets. To an idiot bamboozled by claims that co-marketed multi-operator ticketing is the best thing since sliced bread (a forerunner to the planned nationalization here), it would be over £13.

I can only assume this oddity is because the private operators have been delaying necessary inflation driven increases to their day tickets due to the windfall that is the current murkyness over who is actually paying the bottom line costs of running buses these days.

It may not seem a lot, but if this fare comes out as £15 once the cap is scrapped, that doesn't compare well with the other travel options. Or indeed, just not going at all. I have a car, and for now, the council is generously offering free parking.

Their largest car park is of course in entirely the wrong place, right next to the (very nice, clean and welcoming bus ststion), delaying bus services even further. They are of course only as quick as they are because they run as expresses along a major A-road, an artery that is now only pleasant to drive on Sundays.

But I don't really like driving on my days off, since you can't drink, and t's generally a hassle even with free parking and light traffic. A cheap, clean, fast bus is perfect for leisure travel. And it brings huge economic benefits to the local economy, public and private, as well as the national coffers. As far as I know they still all need this help while recovering from the assorted hits of recent years. Another year or two at least, surely.

Kier Starmer wants more of that economic activity, not less. Doesn't he?

 

[Segedunum]

I paid only £1.60 for Constable Burton-Bedale or Bedale-Northallerton a couple of months ago (forget which of the two it was, the other was £2).

In cities where it was always convention to ask for the fare (e.g. Manchester) do people just say "two quid please" or have they moved to stating destinations?

I travelled Manchester-Todmorden on the bus last Sunday (changing in Rochdale) and on both the vast majority just asked for 'two pound'. I was the odd one out largely in asking for the destination.

In Newcastle it's probably about 50:50 as to what's asked for. Would you believe at one point on my local route there was a 20p difference between getting off at St Mary's Place or riding around the corner into Haymarket Bus Station proper. Certain drivers used to bark at you for not being more specific than 'town'

More on topic - Go North East already had a £2.30 cap (which had increased several times from £1.70) in North Tyneside (and various other caps in different parts of the region). Traditionally Arriva had always been cheaper (and they do compete on the same corridor near me) - at one point it was £2.20 on Arriva or £3.20 on GNE. If the cap is abolished who knows what they'd end up doing.

 

[AB93]

The Isle of Wight sightseeing services offer only a day ticket at around £10 (also valid on other services), no singles at all let alone £2 ones.

Local singles are sold on the sightseeing services, link to the Needles Breezer fare table on bustimes.org below.
They're not covered by the £2 fare cap, though!

Go South Coast 8503 Outbound - Adult Single fares – Bus Times

bustimes.org

 

[Bletchleyite]

Local singles are sold on the sightseeing services, link to the Needles Breezer fare table on bustimes.org below.
They're not covered by the £2 fare cap, though!

Go South Coast 8503 Outbound - Adult Single fares – Bus Times

bustimes.org

Interesting, the driver told us they weren't!

 

[SSmith2009]

Start of the loop is where a trip end/start should take place, certainly where Ticketer is being used. If a passenger is using Tap On Tap Off, then getting off on what is the second trip wouldn't matter as long as those stops are included in the stop list for the direction the passenger is travelling in. Otherwise, if the terminus is elsewhere on the loop, a passenger travelling from the start of the loop would automatically be charged twice.

Some First bus routes in Leicester had this issue but a recent timetable change seen an end to this.

As can be seen with this timetable (Service 14 timetable) most journeys now run the outbound and inbound trips as one "circular" service.

 

[WM Bus]

The Isle of Wight sightseeing services offer only a day ticket at around £10 (also valid on other services), no singles at all let alone £2 ones.

On the other hand the Lake District open top services also serve a transport function and are in the scheme.

Stagecoach Stratford on Avon one is £16.50 for the day. £14.50 concession.
Quite a hefty price.

 

[Simon75]

Has the £2 fare caused upset to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland having to pay higher fares ?

 

[Magdalia]

Kier Starmer wants more of that economic activity, not less. Doesn't he?

The sort of economic activity that you describe is low productivity, low wage, and low growth.

The UK economy isn't going to grow by people riding around on subsidised buses and eating out for £10 (which is less that 1 hour at the living wage).

What is required to restore the public finances is high tech, high productivity, high wage economic activity. Things like AI, life sciences and renewable energy.

Subsidising low productivity, low wage economic activity is one of the things that has got the UK economy into its current state. It diverts economic resources away from other areas where they could be used more productively, and where they would lead to higher economic growth.

 

[sprunt]

Impossible to detect by travelling inspector unless caught in the act, but well known in the Company. Actually made O.M.O. driver fraud much more easy.

If nobody's getting a ticket whether they've paid or not, what would the inspector be inspecting?

In cities where it was always convention to ask for the fare (e.g. Manchester) do people just say "two quid please" or have they moved to stating destinations?

I just say the type of ticket I want, which will either be a single or some type of pass - that seems to be the done thing.

 

[Merle Haggard]

If nobody's getting a ticket whether they've paid or not, what would the inspector be inspecting?

Perhaps I was too concise but by 'impossible to detect by travelling inspector' I meant that there was no point in on-board checking thereby implying that they didn't.

 

[gc4946]

It's too early to scrap the fare cap yet. There should be annual reviews to find out if bus usage is back to pre-Covid patronage.
Bus Centre of Excellence website states,
"The number of local bus passenger journeys in England saw an increase of 0.5 billion (19.3%) to 3.4 billion in the year ending March 2023. This was lower than before the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic when passenger journeys in the year ending March 2020 for England were 4.1 billion"

Bus Statistics — Bus Centre of Excellence

www.buscentreofexcellence.org.uk

It'll be interesting how many journeys were made in year ending March 2024. If recovery is proceeding well, then I'm not ruling out a £2.50 fare cap from 1st January 2025.

 

[Trainman40083]

It's too early to scrap the fare cap yet. There should be annual reviews to find out if bus usage is back to pre-Covid patronage.
Bus Centre of Excellence website states,
"The number of local bus passenger journeys in England saw an increase of 0.5 billion (19.3%) to 3.4 billion in the year ending March 2023. This was lower than before the coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic when passenger journeys in the year ending March 2020 for England were 4.1 billion"

Bus Statistics — Bus Centre of Excellence

www.buscentreofexcellence.org.uk

It'll be interesting how many journeys were made in year ending March 2024. If recovery is proceeding well, then I'm not ruling out a £2.50 fare cap from 1st January 2025.

What makes people think with the £2 fare, that passenger numbers will ever go back to pre COVID numbers? For that to happen you'd probably need to go back to a pre COVID lifestyle.... Less on line shopping, no working from home. Less bikes, no e-scooters, less walking etc. Not sure any of that will happen.

 

[Recessio]

What makes people think with the £2 fare, that passenger numbers will ever go back to pre COVID numbers? For that to happen you'd probably need to go back to a pre COVID lifestyle.... Less on line shopping, no working from home. Less bikes, no e-scooters, less walking etc. Not sure any of that will happen.

Because the lower fares (especially in real terms given the inflation of the last few years) could be inducing bus travel from other modes (cars particularly) that wouldn't have happened before, which could make up for some of the passengers lost to working from home and online shopping.

 

[Mikey C]

I would have thought that relatively few of the people working from home, would have taken the bus to work anyway.

 

[Trainman40083]

I would have thought that relatively few of the people working from home, would have taken the bus to work anyway.

I could see people working in Council offices using the bus, City centre offices etc. But likewise we see former City centre shop workers, where the stores have relocated to out of town retail parks.

 

[Teapot42]

I would have thought that relatively few of the people working from home, would have taken the bus to work anyway.

Not a very large sample, but in our household, it's gone from 50% using the bus 4-5 days a week, to it being used once or twice a month.

This is due to a combination of increased WFH and service reductions making the journey less viable, so the car is used more.

 

[820KDV]

Word from several operators reaching me is that DfT are consulting the industry on £2.50 and £3.00 fare caps; asking for thoughts and estimated costings.

DfT officials were tight lipped on the subject at the Bus Strategy Meeting on Tuesday, but you'd expect that ahead of a Budget and when they are still getting used to working with their new political masters. We were told however that they believe they have a very strong case for bus funding (of all sorts, largely based on the 2024 BSIP proposed schemes) to put to the Treasury. But if I'm honest, I'd expect every department to believe strongly in their own case for funds.

 

[1D54]

That does come across as potentially good news so simply a case of wait and see but putting a quid on a single might be a bit much. Doing it over the course of a year with a 50p rise followed by another after six months would probably be acceptable to many.

 

[Teapot42]

That does come across as potentially good news so simply a case of wait and see but putting a quid on a single might be a bit much. Doing it over the course of a year with a 50p rise followed by another after six months would probably be acceptable to many.

This sort of comes back to what I (and others) were saying earlier - if they could come up with a stat that x% of journeys would be unaffected by the rise in the cap it might go down better. However, as most drivers just issue a ticket for the full route there is no way to know reliably that fare would have been charged.

You'd also need some degree of certainty that it wouldn't be 'putting a quid on a single', and that base fares wouldn't just rise to whatever the new cap is.

 

[Cesarcollie]

This sort of comes back to what I (and others) were saying earlier - if they could come up with a stat that x% of journeys would be unaffected by the rise in the cap it might go down better. However, as most drivers just issue a ticket for the full route there is no way to know reliably that fare would have been charged.

You'd also need some degree of certainty that it wouldn't be 'putting a quid on a single', and that base fares wouldn't just rise to whatever the new cap is.

Fares below the cap are also currently restricted by the scheme in terms of percentage increases linked to CPI. Actually an increasing problem, as bus industry cost increases are significantly ahead of CPI generally……

 

[Teapot42]

Fares below the cap are also currently restricted by the scheme in terms of percentage increases linked to CPI. Actually an increasing problem, as bus industry cost increases are significantly ahead of CPI generally……

It's one of those difficult balancing acts I guess. It is probably in the overall interest for the government to subsidise fares so buses are chosen over cars for short (<2 mile say) trips, but also it is better still if cycling and walking can be promoted as the mode of choice for such trips.

Therefore, any scheme needs to reflect the higher industry cost to make sure these local buses still run at a price that attracts passengers.

 

[Trainman40083]

Word from several operators reaching me is that DfT are consulting the industry on £2.50 and £3.00 fare caps; asking for thoughts and estimated costings.

DfT officials were tight lipped on the subject at the Bus Strategy Meeting on Tuesday, but you'd expect that ahead of a Budget and when they are still getting used to working with their new political masters. We were told however that they believe they have a very strong case for bus funding (of all sorts, largely based on the 2024 BSIP proposed schemes) to put to the Treasury. But if I'm honest, I'd expect every department to believe strongly in their own case for funds.

One minute the Government talks of a £22 billion black hole, then suddenly the Treasury finds £10 billion. I wonder which department will have the strongest case for any available money? If some bus routes are profitable due to full loads, do you continue to find them, if money is short? A few more weeks, we should find out.

 

[jon0844]

The Government needs to look beyond the cost of funding the £2 scheme and look at the benefits to the economy if it enables more people to get around, and potentially reduces the dependency on cars and the fossil fuels to run them before EVs take over. But road congestion remains a thing even for EVs.

A sensible Government HAS to look at the bigger picture for everything.

 

[ic31420]

In

That seems a sensible way out of this. After 2 years of the £2 fare removing the scheme completely would be a big step. From where I live into town about 7 miles away, before the £2 fare the day ticket at £7.90 seemed expensive. Due to fare increases during the last 2 years that day ticket is now £9.50. To go from a return fare of £4 to £9.50 could see a big drop in passenger numbers.

It's a similar situation for me, the £2 fare means I use the bus more when travelling alone. It is simply cheaper than getting the car out and paying parking. With the missus and the kids the car is cheaper as a family set of singles is £6 each way.

If I'm going to work then £4 return is cheaper than the car. Prior to the £2 fare then I took the car as the car was cheaper.

it does however mean I use the bus less locally for travelling a few stops of about a mile (school run on wet days) as £2 is more than what it used to be.

The Government needs to look beyond the cost of funding the £2 scheme and look at the benefits to the economy if it enables more people to get around, and potentially reduces the dependency on cars and the fossil fuels to run them before EVs take over. But road congestion remains a thing even for EVs.

A sensible Government HAS to look at the bigger picture for everything.

Exactly that... there are a few annoyances with the £2 fare.

For me that it drives single sales and that increases dwell times at stops as I have faff about buying 10 or 12 tickets a week instead of 1 weekly. it's a faff as the ticketer machines and cards aren't the fastest.

The other is the fact I can get a bus a mile up the road and it's £2, I can get the x41 from Ramsbottom to central Manchester and it's £2, but if I get a bus to Bolton it's costing me £4 because I have to change, if I go to my parents it's £6 (three buses) despite not being as far as the x41 trip.

The £2 x41 fare is a bargain, and means I use the bus as opposed to the bus and metrolink to get to Manchester, end to end is no slower and about 25% of the price.

 

[Ianigsy]

What makes people think with the £2 fare, that passenger numbers will ever go back to pre COVID numbers? For that to happen you'd probably need to go back to a pre COVID lifestyle.... Less on line shopping, no working from home. Less bikes, no e-scooters, less walking etc. Not sure any of that will happen.

The crucial thing for at least two colleagues has been 2x£2 singles costing less than a day’s parking in Leeds.

 

[Trainman40083]

The crucial thing for at least two colleagues has been 2x£2 singles costing less than a day’s parking in Leeds.

Very valid point. So at what cost do they go back to their car, if at all?

 

[takno]

Very valid point. So at what cost do they go back to their car, if at all?

If the parking charges go up at the same rate as the bus fares there shouldn't be a problem

 

[ic31420]

Very valid point. So at what cost do they go back to their car, if at all?

For me it's when the bus fare becomes more than the parking cost.

I'll swallow the fuel cost for the convenience and time saving.

The same as when the Mrs and I, or we go as a whole family somewhere now.

If the parking charges go up at the same rate as the bus fares there shouldn't be a problem

The problem is that there are vast areas where public transport is impractical for people to use and it is not practical or sensible to deliver buses to all these places. I for example cannot finish work at 5pm and get home for half past to collect the kids from school and nursery by public transport with the hourly bus. Nor can I sensibly get to work for a 7am start by bus. But I can manage that by car or cycle (it's 6miles and 20-25mins).

If you increase parking charges you stop people travelling to towns who can't sensibly use public transport (I'll be blowed if I'm getting three buses and spending over an hour to travel 6miles - I can walk it in 100mins) and of course there are those who simply won't use pubtra.