14th Sept 2024 - Thameslink's Peterborough Route Decimated Yet Again

[Bikeman78]

You'd need platform capacity at King's Cross to terminate there. Plus another driver to work the train back, as it would likely breach continuous driving times to plan for one driver to work a train Peterborough to London then back again.
When coming up with an emergency timetable, things need to be kept simple, as there isn't enough time or staff in control to come up with complicated workings at short notice

Why is there no capacity at King's Cross? It lost platform 11 but gained platform 0. There used to be six GN trains per hour but now there are only four. Unless I have miscounted? As for drivers, they used do to a round trip from Kings' Cross to Peterborough or vice versa on 317s and 365s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Sep 2024 ==

The latter is stretching the definition of the word maintained when it comes to Peterborough - Horsham. It’s not uncommon for this service to be devastated at the first sign of disruption, and often barely recovering for the remainder of the day.

It was supposed to be hourly from London Bridge to Horsham but there were several two hour gaps. At least there was someone proactive on duty that who put extra stops in the Bognor trains. There is no guarantee that will happen. That is the most annoying aspect of the Thameslink shambles. There is no set plan as to what will happen when a particular route stops working. Extra stops on other services might or might not happen, seemingly depending on the whim of the controller of the day.

 

[Robski]

Why is there no capacity at King's Cross? It lost platform 11 but gained platform 0. There used to be six GN trains per hour but now there are only four. Unless I have miscounted? As for drivers, they used do to a round trip from Kings' Cross to Peterborough or vice versa on 317s and 365s.

Platform 0 was added in 2010 and platform 11* was removed in 2021 so it isn't a fair comparison. Also, only platforms 0-8 can accommodate 12 coach trains, back when all GN outer routes worked out of Kings Cross most trains were 8 (or 4) coaches which could fit in the suburban platforms. The frequency was also lower.

GN control is quite disorganised at times, the last time I saw trains being diverted into KX they were dumping trains there with no drivers/plan to send them back north and ended up blocking a few platforms for hours.

* Platform 10 was removed, platform 11 was re-numbered to platform 10.

 

[Bikeman78]

Platform 0 was added in 2010 and platform 11* was removed in 2021 so it isn't a fair comparison. Also, only platforms 0-8 can accommodate 12 coach trains, back when all GN outer routes worked out of Kings Cross most trains were 8 (or 4) coaches which could fit in the suburban platforms. The frequency was also lower.

GN control is quite disorganised at times, the last time I saw trains being diverted into KX they were dumping trains there with no drivers/plan to send them back north and ended up blocking a few platforms for hours.

* Platform 10 was removed, platform 11 was re-numbered to platform 10.

Thanks. My first question is why was platform 11 removed? I thought the idea was to lengthen platform 9 or 10?

As regards length, I think all Peterborough drivers sign class 387s. So run them up and down all day instead of one trip each way. That opens up the option of using the shorter platforms at King's Cross.

 

[Robski]

My first question is why was platform 11 removed? I thought the idea was to lengthen platform 9 or 10?

There were safety concerns over how wide platform 10/11 was, especially at the northern end. There is now a fence on the old platform 10 edge which prevents people falling off the edge during rush hour. There isn't space to lengthen it at the northern end (although it could be made wider in the future).

As regards length, I think all Peterborough drivers sign class 387s. So run them up and down all day instead of one trip each way. That opens up the option of using the shorter platforms at King's Cross.

I don't think there is a business case to do that alongside the existing Thameslink service off peak.

 

[Bikeman78]

I don't think there is a business case to do that alongside the existing Thameslink service off peak.

I meant to provide an hourly service to London when Thameslink is not working properly, rather than terminating at Stevenage and expecting people to cram onto trains from Royston or Cambridge.

 

[62484GlenLyon]

There were safety concerns over how wide platform 10/11 was, especially at the northern end. There is now a fence on the old platform 10 edge which prevents people falling off the edge during rush hour. There isn't space to lengthen it at the northern end (although it could be made wider in the future).

I don't think there is a business case to do that alongside the existing Thameslink service off peak.

There isn't a fence along the edge of the old platform 10, unless it has been installed since 16.27 yesterday afternoon. One misstep as you walk near the edge of the platform will see you fall onto the track-free ballast.

I am surprised that this situation has been allowed since the remodelling in 2021.

 

[Minstral25]

Yes, heading north the XX:18 and XX:48 would run to Bedford with the XX:59 running only as far as London Bridge. A reduction of 25% heading as far as London Bridge and 50% heading through the TL core from Redhill (compared to a normal Saturday service*) - on paper this isn't an ideal reduction but was made worst with service still being cancelled despite the reduced timetable.

*Normal Saturday service would see 4tph operated by TL through the core to Luton/Bedford (at XX:18 and XX:48) and Peterborough (at XX:29 and XX:59) - presumption all services run.

Exactly

Hmm, as someone who regularly commutes to and from Victoria, I've not seen the Reigate services cut in disruption, but maybe I just haven't observed hard enough as I'm often trying to catch my own train home, hahaha.

Anyways getting slightly off topic but that's my fault.

Well you are not looking - I have seen them removed from the Boards at Victoria in disruption rather than being shown as cancelled.

Cancellation happens on average once or twice a week and is relevant to disruption of Thameslink services as the Southern services run parallel to the missing Thameslinks.

 

[Robski]

There isn't a fence along the edge of the old platform 10, unless it has been installed since 16.27 yesterday afternoon. One misstep as you walk near the edge of the platform will see you fall onto the track-free ballast.

There is one at the country end of platform 10. It’s even visible on Google Maps. Granted it isn’t along the entire platform but it is at the narrowest point of the platform, where it is most needed.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Only 5 of the entire HOR-PBO service group cancelled yesterday so can deliver close to the plan

 

[jojoseph72]

Well you are not looking - I have seen them removed from the Boards at Victoria in disruption rather than being shown as cancelled.

Cancellation happens on average once or twice a week and is relevant to disruption of Thameslink services as the Southern services run parallel to the missing Thameslinks.

We shall have to agree to disagree.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It all depends where the disruption is

Exactly



Well you are not looking - I have seen them removed from the Boards at Victoria in disruption rather than being shown as cancelled.

Cancellation happens on average once or twice a week and is relevant to disruption of Thameslink services as the Southern services run parallel to the missing Thameslinks.

It all depends where the disruption is. If it's at or north of Redhill, the Reigates will be removed. If it's South, they stay in.
The other issue is a lot of drivers for the Reigates come up from the mainline, so any disruption south of Redhill also displaces those drivers.

 

[Minstral25]

We shall have to agree to disagree.

Loock at Recent train times and you'll see the blocks of cancellations

It all depends where the disruption is

It all depends where the disruption is. If it's at or north of Redhill, the Reigates will be removed. If it's South, they stay in.
The other issue is a lot of drivers for the Reigates come up from the mainline, so any disruption south of Redhill also displaces those drivers.

GTR openly admit at Stakeholder level to local Rail users that the first services they choose to cancel when there is disruption north of Gatwick are GatEx, 1R (Reigate) and 9R (Three Bridges/Bedford via Redhill).

Obviously no point cancelling 1R and 9R if there is an issue at Haywards Heath or Brighton.

 

[jojoseph72]

Loock at Recent train times and you'll see the blocks of cancellations

I have seen cancellations with the service cut to hourly but the full removal of the service I haven't seen. If it leaves late from Victoria I have also seen it turned back at Redhill.

But again we will have to agree to disagree about the extent of impact the 1R services see during disruption.

 

[Minstral25]

I have seen cancellations with the service cut to hourly but the full removal of the service I haven't seen. If it leaves late from Victoria I have also seen it turned back at Redhill.

But again we will have to agree to disagree about the extent of impact the 1R services see during disruption.

Since August we only have had 4 events where service was withdrawn for 3 or more hours, which is lower than usual. But going back further in June and July from my notes at that time it was averaging once a week. I have no recollection of it being deliberately reduced to hourly except for odd train failures and I use the service regularily. It obviously varies but GTR state it is their policy to remove 1R's (Reigate to Vic) first as the trains are only 4 coaches between East Croydon and Victoria so cannot absorb capacity.

 

[takethegame]

Not sure if it merits its own thread, but my son was due to travel from Peterborough to London on one of these trains including a change at Stevenage, but didn't even make it to Peterborough. The 1123 EMR Spalding to Peterborough was so overcrowded that literally no-one was able to board at Spalding. Around 50 people missed that train and had to cancel, or make alternative arrangements. It is incredibly poor by EMR to have a 2.5 hour gap in the service, a) on a Saturday when there is a lot of leisure travel, b) on a Saturday when Lincoln are playing football at Peterborough and c) then only send a 2 car unit. I spoke to an EMR conductor today who told me that train is always busy anyway. Who plans a timetable with large gaps?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Loock at Recent train times and you'll see the blocks of cancellations



GTR openly admit at Stakeholder level to local Rail users that the first services they choose to cancel when there is disruption north of Gatwick are GatEx, 1R (Reigate) and 9R (Three Bridges/Bedford via Redhill).

Obviously no point cancelling 1R and 9R if there is an issue at Haywards Heath or Brighton.

Not really acceptable as it removes all the capacity off the Redhill route not the ML which is more than adequately served but thats been the way for 40yrs. I wouldn't mind if they at least automatically put stop orders on the 9J's but they don't.

 

[Bishopstone]

Very poor service on the Horsham-Peterborough route particularly, today, with some consecutive cancellations - the reason cited being driver shortage. Normally this is a Saturday phenomenon, so I wonder if they'll struggle again tomorrow (28th) and, if so, when intending passengers will be told. (Or maybe engineering work elsewhere on the network frees driver resource to run a decent timetable on this service group?).