14th Sept 2024 - Thameslink's Peterborough Route Decimated Yet Again

[Tram203]

Pretty much as the thread title says - another Saturday, another Thameslink disgrace show on the Peterborough route.

xx:24 services from Peterborough to terminate at Stevenage, and xx:54 services from Peterborough cancelled throughout.

It seems the 3 extra Great Northern branded services to and from King's Cross in the morning and evening respectively are also cancelled.

Sources - Thameslink website, and journey planner on said website.

 

[Magdalia]

This was first flagged up on the National Rail website on Thursday. The reason given is shortage of available traincrew.

One factor in this could be football: it is Peterborough v Lincoln this afternoon.

 

[Hadders]

I see GTR are having their usual Saturday meltdown due to lack of drivers.

In the GN side Peterborough services are reduced to a Peterborough-Stevenage shuttle. Cambridge service reduced in number.

The train I’m on is packed. GTR has operated this franchise for exactly 10 years, and despite promises that they would sort all this out, will they ever do so?

 

[Surreytraveller]

GTR's PR department has come up with some sort of 'vision'. Obviously easier to come up with that sort of rubbish than actually run a train service

 

[JonathanH]

GTR has operated this franchise for exactly 10 years, and despite promises that they would sort all this out, will they ever do so?

More to the point, will the future railway ever sort it out, once GTR are gone?

If there aren't enough staff to provide the service without relying on overtime there is a strong reliance on goodwill of the staff they do have. Is the future railway going to see quicker building up of the numbers of traincrew?

 

[OneOfThe48]

GTR has operated this franchise for exactly 10 years, and despite promises that they would sort all this out, will they ever do so?

Isn’t a large part of their continuous problems running any form of service to Peterborough on Saturdays down to the classic driver T&C agreement issues?

I wonder if they’ve ever made a real effort to negotiate an arrangement that gives a reliable enough service for Saturdays and what it would take (£) to do it.

 

[gingerheid]

The most remarkable part of GTR's long term failure is that they were supposed to be operating a higher level of service than they ever have. Did they ever even intend to?

 

[gm671]

Isn’t a large part of their continuous problems running any form of service to Peterborough on Saturdays down to the classic driver T&C agreement issues?

Nothing to do with T&C's. Saturday is part of the rostered working week. GTR is reliant on rest day working and goodwill to cover the basic timetable. Unsurprisingly the latter is non existent after the way the company has behaved over the last couple of years.

All exacerbated by the swinging cuts to route and traction knowledge in 2018 which massively reduced the ability to cross cover from other depots.

 

[Hadders]

Nothing to do with T&C's. Saturday is part of the rostered working week. GTR is reliant on rest day working and goodwill to cover the basic timetable. Unsurprisingly the latter is non existent after the way the company has behaved over the last couple of years.

All exacerbated by the swinging cuts to route and traction knowledge in 2018 which massively reduced the ability to cross cover from other depots.

It's never been right.

It wasn't right before the shambles of 2018
It wasn't right after 2018 and before covid
It's not been right since covid

Saturday night and there's is just one train an hour between London and Stevenage.

 

[Magdalia]

It's never been right.

I'm old enough to remember when weekend traincrew shortages on the GN were not an issue, but it is a long time ago now.

It wasn't an issue before privatisation.

I reckon it first started about 20 years ago when WAGN cut back on recruitment towards the end of their franchise.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Nothing to do with T&C's. Saturday is part of the rostered working week. GTR is reliant on rest day working and goodwill to cover the basic timetable.

Is Saturday rostered the same as the other days of the working week?

Thought I saw something a while ago that they had a much higher allocation of rest days on Saturdays which meant reliance on rest day working on Saturdays was much higher, and judging by their continuous Saturday problems is clearly unsustainably high.

 

[gm671]

Saturdays are within the working week and are rostered like any other working day. Rosters are produced by local level reps to criteria set by the company and have to be agreed by management every six months. In short, if they want to increase the number of Saturdays they can and it has been done previously. There will of course be resistance to that as Saturday turns are generally a much longer day and we already work more than 50% of Saturdays in the year.

The reliance on RDW comes undone as, unsurprisingly, drivers are less willing to forego a day off at weekends when it’s more likely they are able to spend time with friends/family than midweek. Personally you will not catch me or many other drives voluntarily working a Saturday evening, having to deal with the numerous idiots and drunks whilst running on a DOO network with sparsely staffed stations and nil support from control and management. Whereas an additional Thursday during a week with split rest days is far more palatable.

Unlike the time and half or double pay or £600 bonuses spouted by The Scum, Daily Whale et al, overtime is barely paid at any premium rate at all. There is really not much financial incentive.

Frequently there has been full coverage on the GN side but PBO-SVG shuttles have been put in place due to lack of coverage south of the river. The “shortage of train crew” excuse is massively over used when in reality it is down to piss poor planning and general management incompetence. Quite simply GTR do STILL not employ enough drivers to run the basic timetable.

 

[transportphoto]

Frequently there has been full coverage on the GN side but PBO-SVG shuttles have been put in place due to lack of coverage south of the river.

Are train crew not rostered to specific diagrams in advance? Do GTR move the they have got to cover south of the river when it suits?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Are train crew not rostered to specific diagrams in advance? Do GTR move the they have got to cover south of the river when it suits?

You cannot roster crews if those crews don't exist. How do you move a Peterborough driver to Horsham to cover a Horsham duty? That would take them three hours to get there, then three hours afterwards to get back. Practically a whole shift of nonproductive work. It would make the situation worse.
Plus who's going to do the work of moving all the drivers around?

 

[transportphoto]

You cannot roster crews if those crews don't exist. How do you move a Peterborough driver to Horsham to cover a Horsham duty? That would take them three hours to get there, then three hours afterwards to get back. Practically a whole shift of nonproductive work. It would make the situation worse.
Plus who's going to do the work of moving all the drivers around?

Absolutely, I agree - although not impossible to cover part of a duty. The post I quoted suggested Stevenage-Peterborough shuttles had been introduced due to shortages on the south side of the river.

I forget that Peterborough services are now largely cross-London, so naturally will be worked by GTR drivers from that side of the river.

With the full coverage on the “Great Northern” side as suggested, I guess the question then is - why terminate at Stevenage. My guess would be lack of capacity at, and/or not quite enough staff to reach, Kings Cross.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Absolutely, I agree - although not impossible to cover part of a duty. The post I quoted suggested Stevenage-Peterborough shuttles had been introduced due to shortages on the south side of the river.

I forget that Peterborough services are now largely cross-London, so naturally will be worked by GTR drivers from that side of the river.

With the full coverage on the “Great Northern” side as suggested, I guess the question then is - why terminate at Stevenage. My guess would be lack of capacity at, and/or not quite enough staff to reach, Kings Cross.

You'd need platform capacity at King's Cross to terminate there. Plus another driver to work the train back, as it would likely breach continuous driving times to plan for one driver to work a train Peterborough to London then back again.
When coming up with an emergency timetable, things need to be kept simple, as there isn't enough time or staff in control to come up with complicated workings at short notice

 

[MikeWM]

I'm old enough to remember when weekend traincrew shortages on the GN were not an issue, but it is a long time ago now.

It wasn't an issue before privatisation.

I reckon it first started about 20 years ago when WAGN cut back on recruitment towards the end of their franchise.

It got considerably worse pretty much the day GTR took over however - to the degree that almost immediately they were promising the 'largest recruitment of drivers ever' to solve the issues. As pointed out above, it is now exactly 10 years since they took over, and the problems appear to be just as bad as ever.

As someone who travelled Cambridge-London pretty much every Saturday between 2008 and 2019 or thereabouts, I can say that on the whole I found FCC reliable (at least on weekends!), and GN having problems basically from day 1. I actually started a thread on this back in May 2016, which has a mix of anecdotes (some agreeing with me about FCC, some disagreeing - though all agree that GN were doing badly even back then, and nothing has improved in the intervening years):

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-northern-weekend-cancellations.130813/

 

[jojoseph72]

I would definitely say GTR, when they have a shortage of drivers on Saturdays, works to preserve the service on the Southern side more than the Northern side. As someone who lives on the Southern side, heading further south on the 14th we still had a relatively consistent timetable with 4tph to Brighton, 1tph to Horsham via Redhill and 1tph to Three Bridges via Redhill. But wanting to head across the Thames, you could really see the cut back in timetable with only 2tph to Bedford (as opposed to 4tph), 1tph to Finsbury Park and 1tph to Royston (as opposed to 2tph to Peterborough and 2tph to Cambridge), the remaining 2tph terminated at London Bridge.

And I think as the day went on, services, especially joining the ECML, progressively got more unreliable, with even the cut-back timetable seeing cancellations. I ended up leaving a gathering I was at in Finsbury Park earlier to ensure I could still get home reliably with Thameslink.

 

[Horizon22]

This is as much a diagramming / rostering / planning problem as it is a staffing issue.

If you have a cross-London route but have lop-sided diagrams with most of the crew starts/finishes in the North/South, then you will be disproportionately hit on one side. The work needs to be more balanced so that it would be a more consistent, even reduced service if you have gaps.

 

[gm671]

With the full coverage on the “Great Northern” side as suggested, I guess the question then is - why terminate at Stevenage. My guess would be lack of capacity at, and/or not quite enough staff to reach, Kings Cross.

Restriction by Network Rail due capacity at KGX.

Ideally would terminate at Finsbury Park and turnaround at Canonbury/Highbury Vale but Peterborough and Horsham drivers don't sign it.

Plus another driver to work the train back, as it would likely breach continuous driving times to plan for one driver to work a train Peterborough to London then back again.

Nope, regularly work there and back. 4.5hr continuous driving allowed in 387/700.

This is as much a diagramming / rostering / planning problem as it is a staffing issue.

The trouble is management just don't care. As the past ten years have shown they're not interested in improving things. They get their management fee regardless.

 

[Minstral25]

I would definitely say GTR, when they have a shortage of drivers on Saturdays, works to preserve the service on the Southern side more than the Northern side. As someone who lives on the Southern side, heading further south on the 14th we still had a relatively consistent timetable with 4tph to Brighton, 1tph to Horsham via Redhill and 1tph to Three Bridges via Redhill. But wanting to head across the Thames, you could really see the cut back in timetable with only 2tph to Bedford (as opposed to 4tph), 1tph to Finsbury Park and 1tph to Royston (as opposed to 2tph to Peterborough and 2tph to Cambridge), the remaining 2tph terminated at London Bridge.

And I think as the day went on, services, especially joining the ECML, progressively got more unreliable, with even the cut-back timetable seeing cancellations. I ended up leaving a gathering I was at in Finsbury Park earlier to ensure I could still get home reliably with Thameslink.

If you lived in Redhill you would not agree with this. GTR maintain the Brighton line at all costs and leave the Redhill route without a decent service.

Even what you say above with two hourly services routed via Redhill they always run them a few minutes apart leaving big gaps. Plus GTR control's order of service removal in disruption is Gatwick Express first, then Reigate via Redhill, then Three Bridges via Redhill automatically before they cancel anything else.

 

[43066]

Unlike the time and half or double pay or £600 bonuses spouted by The Scum, Daily Whale et al, overtime is barely paid at any premium rate at all. There is really not much financial incentive.

Out of interest, what are GTR paying for rest days? I had an idea it was time and half, but perhaps that’s only Sundays.

If it isn’t a healthy uplift on the standard rate I agree there’s much less of an incentive to do any.

 

[jojoseph72]

If you lived in Redhill you would not agree with this. GTR maintain the Brighton line at all costs and leave the Redhill route without a decent service.

Even what you say above with two hourly services routed via Redhill they always run them a few minutes apart leaving big gaps. Plus GTR control's order of service removal in disruption is Gatwick Express first, then Reigate via Redhill, then Three Bridges via Redhill automatically before they cancel anything else.

I do agree that GTR maintain the Brighton line at all costs, do you think that is by choice or by order from the DfT? I have seen the Redhill line that the service does suffer in times of disruption or reduced service, on the 14th the gaps do seem to be irregular - heading south it was XX:22, XX:37 and XX:52 and heading north it was XX:18, XX:48 and XX:59. This is made worst with service here and there being cancelled - so the cut back timetable itself wasn't maintained.

I agree with what happen during disruption, if it out of Victoria or SN related - GX services are always cut in full, and if it TL related the Bedford-Three Bridges (& if on weekdays the peak East Grinstead) services are fully cut as well.

 

[JonathanH]

I do agree that GTR maintain the Brighton line at all costs, do you think that is by choice or by order from the DfT?

The Brighton line is where the majority of passengers are going. It is obvious that Bedford to Brighton should be the primary route maintained.

Bedford to Brighton tends to maintained over Bedford to Three Bridges.

Peterborough to Horsham tends to be maintained instead of Cambridge to Brighton.

 

[whoosh]

Out of interest, what are GTR paying for rest days? I had an idea it was time and half, but perhaps that’s only Sundays.

If it isn’t a healthy uplift on the standard rate I agree there’s much less of an incentive to do any.

Time and 15% + £50.

That £50 was worth more back in 2008 (which is when I think the agreement with First Capital Connect was made) than it is now.


Sundays (which are outside the working week) are paid at time +55%.

 

[bramling]

The Brighton line is where the majority of passengers are going. It is obvious that Bedford to Brighton should be the primary route maintained.

Bedford to Brighton tends to maintained over Bedford to Three Bridges.

Peterborough to Horsham tends to be maintained instead of Cambridge to Brighton.

The latter is stretching the definition of the word maintained when it comes to Peterborough - Horsham. It’s not uncommon for this service to be devastated at the first sign of disruption, and often barely recovering for the remainder of the day.

 

[43066]

Time and 15% + £50.

That £50 was worth more back in 2008 (which is when I think the agreement with First Capital Connect was made) than it is now.


Sundays (which are outside the working week) are paid at time +55%.

Thanks - much poorer than I realised, I must admit.

The core is currently closed due to a suitcase on the tracks leading to a small fire.

 

[Minstral25]

I do agree that GTR maintain the Brighton line at all costs, do you think that is by choice or by order from the DfT? I have seen the Redhill line that the service does suffer in times of disruption or reduced service, on the 14th the gaps do seem to be irregular - heading south it was XX:22, XX:37 and XX:52 and heading north it was XX:18, XX:48 and XX:59. This is made worst with service here and there being cancelled - so the cut back timetable itself wasn't maintained.

I agree with what happen during disruption, if it out of Victoria or SN related - GX services are always cut in full, and if it TL related the Bedford-Three Bridges (& if on weekdays the peak East Grinstead) services are fully cut as well.

It was on the 14th except one of those services wasn't running through London, terminating at London Bridge.

As for Victoria disruption, yes GatEx goes first along with Reigate services. If it is East Croydon to Three Bridges related Vic to Reigate & Thameslink to Three Bridges via Redhill are cut in full along with GatEx, leaving Redhill line with the very unreliable Peterborough to Horsham services.

The Brighton line is where the majority of passengers are going. It is obvious that Bedford to Brighton should be the primary route maintained.

Bedford to Brighton tends to maintained over Bedford to Three Bridges.

Peterborough to Horsham tends to be maintained instead of Cambridge to Brighton.

Brighton does have more customers than Redhill Route as a whole but not that many more. Keeping a 100% service to Brighton whilst cutting 70% of your services to a route which provides 10% of your customer base (was in 2018, not checked recently) is not a good thing, primary or not primary. Yes Brighton probably has a higher % but they could afford to take some of the pain to allow services elsewhere. The key is to ensure their busiest non-London termini stations at East Croydon and Gatwick remain served, which can be done with both sets of trains.

There is no preference of keeping PBO to HOR against CAM to BTN.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

It was on the 14th except one of those services wasn't running through London, terminating at London Bridge.

As for Victoria disruption, yes GatEx goes first along with Reigate services. If it is East Croydon to Three Bridges related Vic to Reigate & Thameslink to Three Bridges via Redhill are cut in full along with GatEx, leaving Redhill line with the very unreliable Peterborough to Horsham services.




Brighton does have more customers than Redhill Route as a whole but not that many more. Keeping a 100% service to Brighton whilst cutting 70% of your services to a route which provides 10% of your customer base (was in 2018, not checked recently) is not a good thing, primary or not primary. Yes Brighton probably has a higher % but they could afford to take some of the pain to allow services elsewhere. The key is to ensure their busiest non-London termini stations at East Croydon and Gatwick remain served, which can be done with both sets of trains.

There is no preference of keeping PBO to HOR against CAM to BTN.

Brighton and Gatwick Airport alone means Brighton services have way more. Passenger numbers support this as well.

 

[jojoseph72]

It was on the 14th except one of those services wasn't running through London, terminating at London Bridge.

Yes, heading north the XX:18 and XX:48 would run to Bedford with the XX:59 running only as far as London Bridge. A reduction of 25% heading as far as London Bridge and 50% heading through the TL core from Redhill (compared to a normal Saturday service*) - on paper this isn't an ideal reduction but was made worst with service still being cancelled despite the reduced timetable.

*Normal Saturday service would see 4tph operated by TL through the core to Luton/Bedford (at XX:18 and XX:48) and Peterborough (at XX:29 and XX:59) - presumption all services run.

As for Victoria disruption, yes GatEx goes first along with Reigate services.

Hmm, as someone who regularly commutes to and from Victoria, I've not seen the Reigate services cut in disruption, but maybe I just haven't observed hard enough as I'm often trying to catch my own train home, hahaha.

Anyways getting slightly off topic but that's my fault.