Thoughts/advice on buying electric vehicles.

[LYradial]

A bit irrelevant but at this moment 39% renewables, 20% imported 10% from that drax mess the rest fossils.

back on topic my ford puma hybrid, not a small car, is returning 58 mpg over its 18month life, that is 50% better than my previous similar car.

the regen is always active, every time I remove my foot from the accelerator it kicks in and tells how much regen I am getting.

i love it, it’s just like every Ford, fun to drive, sticks to the road, good easy gearbox and if you stick your foot down and elec kicks in it goes

 

[DelW]

I think diesel market share for new car sales in UK is now down to about 4%. Hybrids are a good fit for people who are replacing diesel cars. The batteries for self charging hybrids are much smaller and lighter than for EV and plug in Hybrids.

But the quid pro quo is that those smaller and lighter batteries are much less useful ...

I have a plug in hybrid, which means that all my local journeys, where a petrol engine is at its least efficient and most polluting (and most wearing of the engine) can be made without starting the engine at all. Such journeys typically total 4 to 10 miles per day, and I usually charge it (at home) about twice a week. Range with a full charge is around 30 miles of local driving.

I went PHEV not EV when I bought it (2020) because I make several trips per year to remote locations in Wales where recharging isn't available (not even from a 13A socket). I could do this in an EV by carefully planning charging on outward and return journeys, but being able to fill up at the local petrol station during my stay is more convenient and helps to keep that business going.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'll be honest, I don't see the point of hybrids and I really don't think they are the way forward. I particularly don't see the point of self-charging hybrids and I really particularly don't see the point of what they market as mild hybrids.

For short journeys you're just lugging around the extra weight of the ICE. For longer journeys you're just lugging around the extra weight of the battery. It just looks and feels like a very uncomfortable compromise.

 

[LYradial]

I'll be honest, I don't see the point of hybrids and I really don't think they are the way forward. I particularly don't see the point of self-charging hybrids and I really particularly don't see the point of what they market as mild hybrids.

For short journeys you're just lugging around the extra weight of the ICE. For longer journeys you're just lugging around the extra weight of the battery. It just looks and feels like a very uncomfortable compromise.

58 mpg as opposed to 38 mpg is a saving worth having. It’s a very small battery
basically just from regen braking, but if you need to overtake a tractor the acceleration provided by battery plus engine is impressive

 

[Noddy]

58 mpg as opposed to 38 mpg is a saving worth having. It’s a very small battery
basically just from regen braking, but if you need to overtake a tractor the acceleration provided by battery plus engine is impressive

It doesn't make that much difference! I had a series of 1.0l fiestas both before and after the mHEV was introduced, and it improved my mpg from about 56 to 59mpg. It does make a slight difference but it is mild, and it probably is not all to do with the battery either as Ford introduced a number of other efficiency savings around the same time such as 2-cylinder running.

 

[DelW]

I'll be honest, I don't see the point of hybrids and I really don't think they are the way forward. I particularly don't see the point of self-charging hybrids and I really particularly don't see the point of what they market as mild hybrids.

For short journeys you're just lugging around the extra weight of the ICE. For longer journeys you're just lugging around the extra weight of the battery. It just looks and feels like a very uncomfortable compromise.

Well, I put my rationale in the post immediately above yours . It works for me, particularly avoiding multiple short cold-engine runs.

I don't really buy the widespread "lugging around" argument. There would be a slight extra fuel use carrying extra weight uphill, but being a hybrid, much of that will be recouped in regeneration on the downhill. Plus I doubt that a small turbocharged petrol engine and transmission weighs much more than the extra 40-50kWh of batteries that a pure EV equivalent would need.

When I was researching mine, Hyundai made an Ioniq (no digit, not to be confused with later Ioniq5s and 6s) which came as a hybrid, a plug in or a full electric. It would be interesting to compare the weights, but it's an obsolete model and web searches get swamped by the later models.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Prompted by Post #3516 here (thanks @Noddy ):

UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

That is entirely true and understandable. However, slow AC charging isn’t as expensive as rapid DC. For example Ubitricity which operates 1000s of lamppost chargers in London and Liverpool and is expanding elsewhere. It charges 53p peak and 45p 23:00-06:00. Likewise Char.gy operate in a range of...

www.railforums.co.uk

II'l add my name to Faircharge campaign:

FairCharge | UK campaign for Electric Vehicles policy

FairCharge is the national campaign to make the switch to EVs accessible and affordable for all drivers. We want to keep costs for electric car charging low, improve charging infrastructure, and raise awareness and knowledge of EVs in the UK.

www.faircharge.co.uk

"A key priority is to change the government policy where EV drivers without home charging pay four times the VAT rate for their electricity from public on-street networks"

That's nearly 40% of the UK population who'd be affected, if they owned an EV.
For 12 years, I lived in London locations (Fulham, Docklands), where virtually no residential property had own driveway or a secure dedicated space for installing a charger.

 

[bspahh]

When I was researching mine, Hyundai made an Ioniq (no digit, not to be confused with later Ioniq5s and 6s) which came as a hybrid, a plug in or a full electric. It would be interesting to compare the weights, but it's an obsolete model and web searches get swamped by the later models.

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/hyundai/ioniq/specs and
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/hyundai/ioniq/electric/specs have these kerbside weights:

Year	Model	Kerbside weight /kg	Type
2017-2021	1.6 GDI Hybrid Premium DCT	1370	Petrol/Hybrid Electric
2017-2021	1.6 GDI Plug-In Hybrid Premium SE DCT	1550	Plugin Hybrid
2017-2020	28kWh Electric Premium 5dr	1420	Electric
2020-2023	38.3 kWh Electric Premium 5dr	1575	Electric

 

[trebor79]

A bit irrelevant but at this moment 39% renewables, 20% imported 10% from that drax mess the rest fossils.

back on topic my ford puma hybrid, not a small car, is returning 58 mpg over its 18month life, that is 50% better than my previous similar car.

the regen is always active, every time I remove my foot from the accelerator it kicks in and tells how much regen I am getting.

i love it, it’s just like every Ford, fun to drive, sticks to the road, good easy gearbox and if you stick your foot down and elec kicks in it goes

Meh. Try a proper EV and you'll find out what really goes feels like!

I'll be honest, I don't see the point of hybrids and I really don't think they are the way forward. I particularly don't see the point of self-charging hybrids and I really particularly don't see the point of what they market as mild hybrids.

100% agree. The only purpose they serve is to keep engine plants and oil refineries busy.

 

[LYradial]

Meh. Try a proper EV and you'll find out what really goes feels like!

I’m a bit old to be a boy racer
three goes at landing in Gibraltar in a gale is enough excitement for me

 

[Ediswan]

Meh. Try a proper EV and you'll find out what really goes feels like!

A friend of mine has a VW e-Up. It seems much faster than the published 0-60 figure.

 

[DelW]

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/hyundai/ioniq/specs and
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/hyundai/ioniq/electric/specs have these kerbside weights:

Year	Model	Kerbside weight /kg	Type
2017-2021	1.6 GDI Hybrid Premium DCT	1370	Petrol/Hybrid Electric
2017-2021	1.6 GDI Plug-In Hybrid Premium SE DCT	1550	Plugin Hybrid
2017-2020	28kWh Electric Premium 5dr	1420	Electric
2020-2023	38.3 kWh Electric Premium 5dr	1575	Electric

Thanks for that, so the weight penalty for EV or PHEV vs standard hybrid is no more than 205 kg, which I doubt would have all that much effect on running cost. It also confirms that the ICE engine weight in the PHEV is balanced by the weight of the extra batteries in the EV. Even 38.3kWh isn't generous for a pure EV, and the range with a 28kWh battery must have been dire.

I only looked at the plug in version, but turned it down on several counts.

 

[bspahh]

Even 38.3kWh isn't generous for a pure EV, and the range with a 28kWh battery must have been dire.

The batteries are small, but they are efficient, with relatively low weight and good aerodynamics.

EV database says the real world range is 115 miles with the 28kWh battery and 155 miles with the 38kWh one. You can get them for less than £10k, so they could be good as a second car.

 

[Hadders]

I drive a two year-old Hyundai Kona 64kW that I've had from new and is about to hit 50,000 miles. It's a company car so I can't comment on the finance side of things but I have considerable experience of driving it across the country. My observations:

- Range depends on time of year. In summer with a warmer battery you'll get a longer range than in winter. On a 100% charge my max range this summer is 331 miles. In the depths of winter it can go down to 260 miles
- Air con and heating canes the battery - expect to lose 30 miles in range when you switch either on. This time of year is a sweet spot - warm weather but no need for heating or air con
- Your driving style matters - you'll get a longer range if you cruise at 65mph rather than 70mph. Added to what I've said above and it really makes a difference
- Home charging - I've got a home charger an an EV tariff that gives me 7 hours cheap electricity. Means that on average each mile costs me less than 1.5p in electricity
- If you have to charge on the road then you'll pay the est part of 80p per unit - 12 times what I pay at home!!! I don't have to charge on the road often, rarely for work, normally it's only when I've gone somewhere for leisure. Only do the bare minimum charge if using a public charger to get home, unless you have money to burn!
- Depending on the time of year, expect it to take 45 minutes to get from 20% to 80% charge. Don't charge to 100% at a rapid charger as they slow down once they hit 80% full to protec the battery

I've driven from Stevenage to Bristol and back a few times in favourable conditions without having to charge; I also did Stevenage to Sheffield and back without having to charge. I thought I was going to have to charge on the way back from Sheffield but I slowed down to 60mph as this is more economic and faster overall than stopping to charge.

If doing a long distance journey then you need to plan. For example, I did a trip from Stevenage to Exeter earlier in the year. I'd got enough charhe to get to Exeter, but not much more. What I did was charge at Cribbs Causway both ways - a 1/3rd 2/3rds strategy so to speak, but it worked and was a convenient place for a leg stretch and a coffee at the same time.

I was worried about range anxiety at first but you soon get your head round it. It's a different way of driving but it has grown on me and two years in it's fine.

 

[trebor79]

- Air con and heating canes the battery - expect to lose 30 miles in range when you switch either on. This time of year is a sweet spot - warm weather but no need for heating or air con

This is the only bit of your experience I dobt understand. Heating maybe on a very very cold day if your car does t have a heat pump. But air con? No, it pulls about 1kW once the cabin is at the set temperature. Driving at 70mph pulls about 20kW so the air con is really minor. Heat pump fitted cars will be similar for heating.

 

[Hadders]

This is the only bit of your experience I dobt understand. Heating maybe on a very very cold day if your car does t have a heat pump. But air con? No, it pulls about 1kW once the cabin is at the set temperature. Driving at 70mph pulls about 20kW so the air con is really minor. Heat pump fitted cars will be similar for heating.

Depends on the temperature outside but trust me, it knocks about 30 miles off the range when you hit the air con button.

 

[Noddy]

I drive a two year-old Hyundai Kona 64kW that I've had from new and is about to hit 50,000 miles. It's a company car so I can't comment on the finance side of things but I have considerable experience of driving it across the country. My observations:

- Range depends on time of year. In summer with a warmer battery you'll get a longer range than in winter. On a 100% charge my max range this summer is 331 miles. In the depths of winter it can go down to 260 miles
- Air con and heating canes the battery - expect to lose 30 miles in range when you switch either on. This time of year is a sweet spot - warm weather but no need for heating or air con
- Your driving style matters - you'll get a longer range if you cruise at 65mph rather than 70mph. Added to what I've said above and it really makes a difference
- Home charging - I've got a home charger an an EV tariff that gives me 7 hours cheap electricity. Means that on average each mile costs me less than 1.5p in electricity
- If you have to charge on the road then you'll pay the est part of 80p per unit - 12 times what I pay at home!!! I don't have to charge on the road often, rarely for work, normally it's only when I've gone somewhere for leisure. Only do the bare minimum charge if using a public charger to get home, unless you have money to burn!
- Depending on the time of year, expect it to take 45 minutes to get from 20% to 80% charge. Don't charge to 100% at a rapid charger as they slow down once they hit 80% full to protec the battery

I've driven from Stevenage to Bristol and back a few times in favourable conditions without having to charge; I also did Stevenage to Sheffield and back without having to charge. I thought I was going to have to charge on the way back from Sheffield but I slowed down to 60mph as this is more economic and faster overall than stopping to charge.

If doing a long distance journey then you need to plan. For example, I did a trip from Stevenage to Exeter earlier in the year. I'd got enough charhe to get to Exeter, but not much more. What I did was charge at Cribbs Causway both ways - a 1/3rd 2/3rds strategy so to speak, but it worked and was a convenient place for a leg stretch and a coffee at the same time.

I was worried about range anxiety at first but you soon get your head round it. It's a different way of driving but it has grown on me and two years in it's fine.

Is the kona really that slow to charge? I agree with @trebor79 that most of this seems fairly accurate (not sure about 80p either unless you completely fail to plan) but aircon on its own only makes a negligible difference.

 

[LYradial]

Several reasonably reliable sources on the net suggest that on a warm summers day aircon uses 2.5 - 4 kw,
the 1 kw figure is if it’s on but not cooling, full climate control is worse

 

[Bletchleyite]

Several reasonably reliable sources on the net suggest that on a warm summers day aircon uses 2.5 - 4 kw,
the 1 kw figure is if it’s on but not cooling, full climate control is worse

But don't forget that having the windows open can also have an energy cost as it increases air resistance.

 

[LYradial]

But don't forget that having the windows open can also have an energy cost as it increases air resistance.

try telling that to my wife

 

[Noddy]

Several reasonably reliable sources on the net suggest that on a warm summers day aircon uses 2.5 - 4 kw,
the 1 kw figure is if it’s on but not cooling, full climate control is worse

On efficiently designed EVs the aircon, battery and transmission cooling will all be on the same system so turning the in cabin AC will only have a small impact.



I can’t speak for the Kona, Hyundai group cars are generally good but not the best. But this type of efficient design is one of the many reasons why generally ground up EVs perform much better than EVs that are ICE cars that have a load of batteries bolted to them.

 

[jon0844]

I have two portable air conditioners at home which are the least efficient way to cool, but I accept the cost for the ability to sleep or work from home. They each consume around 1.3-1.7kWh when actively cooling.

I'd therefore expect a car system to be significantly more efficient and use far less power. And they don't need to be on all the time any more than in a home or office.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have two portable air conditioners at home which are the least efficient way to cool, but I accept the cost for the ability to sleep or work from home. They each consume around 1.3-1.7kWh when actively cooling.

I'd therefore expect a car system to be significantly more efficient and use far less power. And they don't need to be on all the time any more than in a home or office.

A house isn't moving, so the air resistance argument doesn't apply. In a vehicle the air resistance due to airflow disruption from an open window offsets, fully or partially*, the power required for the aircon.

* There's no reliable figure for this, as it will depend on the vehicle.

 

[Foxhunter]

A data point contribution. My wife's car is currently showing a range of 37.7 miles in the battery, or 35.1 with Air Con active. 7% reduction.

 

[Hadders]

Is the kona really that slow to charge? I agree with @trebor79 that most of this seems fairly accurate (not sure about 80p either unless you completely fail to plan) but aircon on its own only makes a negligible difference.

I can only tell you my experience. I generally don't use air con but do use it on the hottest of days and when I do so (from a fully charged battery) I generally lose about 30 miles of range.

I've not managed to charge from 20% to 80% in under 45 minutes, anywhere (remember I have a 64kW battery)

As for EV charging costs on the road a quick look at at my ZapMap App for Cribbs Causway reveals the following prices per kW:

MFG Filton 79p
Instavolt McDonalds 85p
Bristol Audi 46p (car showroom - restricted hours)
Miller & Carter BP Pulse 53p
Gridserve Mollies 79p
Evyre Redwood Farm 75p
Genie Point Premier Inn 79p or 75p off-peak
Shell Cribbs Causway 85p

BP Pulse seems to be cheaper, I've discounted the car showroom, but everywhere else is in the 75-85p range. This is a part of the world where there is lots of competition.

 

[jmh59]

The batteries are small, but they are efficient, with relatively low weight and good aerodynamics.

EV database says the real world range is 115 miles with the 28kWh battery and 155 miles with the 38kWh one. You can get them for less than £10k, so they could be good as a second car.

That's a fair average. On an 80% charge mine (38kWh model) will do that. On a 100% charge and driven carefully I get closer to 180. Not really a good comparison due to the way I drive usually (!) but nice to see real world averages actually are real. Note I always have the aircon on.

 

[jon0844]

A house isn't moving, so the air resistance argument doesn't apply. In a vehicle the air resistance due to airflow disruption from an open window offsets, fully or partially*, the power required for the aircon.

* There's no reliable figure for this, as it will depend on the vehicle.

Clearly a house isn't moving, but when you have air conditioning or climate control on, you shouldn't have any windows open. And, as you say, if you open windows to cool a vehicle (which you're not if its boiling outside - you're just effectively using the windows as a giant fan) then that has a big impact too.

I just can't imagine the cooling the air inside a car can consume a significant amount of power, at least not after the initial work to cool the cabin if it's been outside in the sun for hours (by contrast, I keep windows and curtains closed on hot days to prevent the rooms heating up too much, although they will eventually do so).

 

[Hadders]

By way of comparison in my diesel cars turning on the air con would reduce consumption by around 3mpg. On a 15 gallon tank this is potentially a 45 mile hit to range. Now clearly an EV has a lower range but it's probably not much different when taken in the round.

 

[Sun Chariot]

A post by @paul1609 on a related thread, made me chuckle at the irony:
" ... there's also a services further north [of Leicester Forest North Services] on the A1M where the fast chargers are powered by large diesel generators."

 

[Bletchleyite]

A post by @paul1609 on a related thread, made me chuckle at the irony:
" ... there's also a services further north [of Leicester Forest North Services] on the A1M where the fast chargers are powered by large diesel generators."

In all seriousness though, the EV charged from a diesel generator is still of benefit, because it won't emit fumes where they cause most harm - in city centres and the likes. Just not quite as much benefit as if it wasn't.

Also a large diesel generator can have better emissions capture kit due to not being shoehorned in a vehicle.