Thoughts/advice on buying electric vehicles.

[Buzby]

assuming you mean the battery experience? It had FULL battery conditioning process and cooling (with plenary fans). The provided warranty was useless because (a) the dealer I purchased it from closed down after my first year of ownership and (b) the bike manufacturer - US firm Vectrix which manufactured these bikes in Worclaw, Poland went bust in year three. Battery manufacturer LG expressed an interest in taking it over for the advanced battery management patents but would not rescue owners. I still have it in my garage as a reminder, it managed 7,238 miles - it cost me £1 for every mile I rode.

i gather there will shortly be 3 or 4 new Chinese manufacturers selling EVs in the UK. Will you be prepared to make the same ‘leap of faith’ I did? It’s quite a gamble if it is your money at stake. Lastly, if you charge at home, the electricity you purchase has 5% VAT. Do it at a chargepoin and the tax quadruples to 20%, and that’s before you get to Kw cost. With no home charger, I would not contemplate any EV as you’ll never be on top of knowing what your charging costs will be unless you pay extra for memberships.

 

[trebor79]

assuming you mean the battery experience? It had FULL battery conditioning process and cooling (with plenary fans). The provided warranty was useless because (a) the dealer I purchased it from closed down after my first year of ownership and (b) the bike manufacturer - US firm Vectrix which manufactured these bikes in Worclaw, Poland went bust in year three. Battery manufacturer LG expressed an interest in taking it over for the advanced battery management patents but would not rescue owners. I still have it in my garage as a reminder, it managed 7,238 miles - it cost me £1 for every mile I rode.

i gather there will shortly be 3 or 4 new Chinese manufacturers selling EVs in the UK. Will you be prepared to make the same ‘leap of faith’ I did? It’s quite a gamble if it is your money at stake. Lastly, if you charge at home, the electricity you purchase has 5% VAT. Do it at a chargepoin and the tax quadruples to 20%, and that’s before you get to Kw cost. With no home charger, I would not contemplate any EV as you’ll never be on top of knowing what your charging costs will be unless you pay extra for memberships.

Well perhaps there's a reason the bike manufacturer went bust if there's a big issue with their battery management.

The evidence is there from Tesla, MG and others that liquid cooled EV batteries are good for hundreds of thousands of miles.
My own Tesla has done 65,000 miles in 3 years. The battery is at 93% state of health and has been flat for over a year - exactly as expected - most degradation happens in the first year or so and then flatlines..it does not "crater" unless its a Leaf with no active cooling.
I suspect your bike didn't have a liquid cooled battery, that and the inevitable compromises to fit it and the air blowing system into the frame will have made it sub optimal.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Does any reader here have insight of owning (not leasing) an EV that's now 7 to 8 years old; and doing circa 12k-15k miles per year in it?
How does its annual running cost compare to "as new"?

My D segment diesel (7 years old) has done 80k miles; all but 2.6k by me. My only outlays = fuel, tyres, MOTs and services.

 

[Ken X]

I am following this thread with interest and many thanks to Sun Chariot for starting it. I hope you do not mind me hitching a ride, so to speak.

I am in the position of owning a five year old diesel car which my company passed on to me when I retired four years ago. It is currently on circa 27k miles, a fair chunk of which was done in my final year, and some weeks never moves. We only undertake three or so long journeys a year. I have plenty of off road parking with power and have looked at the electric car market with interest.
It still seems better for me to run the diesel until the car gives me financial concerns as the majority of the depreciation has happened and the regular costs of running and servicing currently pale into significance compared with shelling out £lots for a nearly new EV and it's associated infrastructure ie. charger etc. We do not travel many regular miles by car and I take friends to hospital etc voluntarily just to get it hot and bothered.

I can forsee the running costs of an EV rising as the government find new and innovative ways to tax said vehicles which again causes me to pause and watch with interest rather than plunge into the market.

Am I missing a trick or is it indeed better to run my diesel until it gives my wallet a spanking, which I am guessing will be a few years down the line? Does the collective think there be a scrappage scheme at some future point? I am conscious of the ethics of EV ownership but the car already exists and my annual mileage sits at circa 2k which is minimal.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Welcome @Ken X and many thanks for joining what I hope will continue an informative thread.

I'm in the same mindset as you (and Buzby has reaffirmed my and my wife's viewpoint).
I'll contine to run my diesel (which owes me nothing now) until it poses a real risk to my wallet. I get upper 50s mpg, which isn't bad for a 7 year old D segment saloon.

In terms of "ethics" of EV ownership: I'd dearly like to see real data (volumes & costs) for all the mining, refining and global distribution, of rare-earth materials used within batteries and other EV-specific components.

 

[Harpers Tate]

@Ken X It's impossible to predict with any certainty what the government will do as regards raising (more) revenue from EV users, although it does seem quite probable that something will be done, with that likelihood increasing as the % of vehicles that are electric increases.

Things like per-mile road charging will, I suspect, involve some infrastructure (like the Congestion cameras in London) or some other non-trivial intervention before it can happen, and I equally suspect that, when it does, it will apply to all vehicles.

In the meantime, there is no realistic way for them to distinguish and thereby add a premium to, domestic power used for vehicles vs. the rest. Which leaves, as the only easy way, addition of a further premium (beyond the 15% extra VAT) to remote charging.

So for the moment, all we can do is judge things as they are at present.

During the last 12 months, I have covered 9253 miles in my EV. In that time, we have remote charged on 16 occasions, all of them at "premium" prices (by which I mean, well in excess of flat daytime domestic rates - the "cap" - after adjusting for the increased VAT). These were all necessary charges.

I have a split tariff at home so all of my domestic charging is done at low rates (currently 0.69p/unit). For a period of just over a month, after switching providers, I was on a flat rate all day.

Those 9253 miles have cost in total £353.61. That's ~3.8p/mile.

Every car is different in economy; every user's pattern is different. So, quite literally, YMMV (your mileage may vary). But just by way of example....

 

[Sun Chariot]

Many thanks @Harpers Tate .

Did you purchase your EV outright at the start? Or is it via lease / other scheme?
My sister-in-law's Volvo EV is on a £780 per month salary-sacrifice. So, she factors that into her annual running cost.

 

[Noddy]

In terms of "ethics" of EV ownership: I'd dearly like to see real data (volumes & costs) for all the mining, refining and global distribution, of rare-earth materials used within batteries and other EV-specific components.

Global crude oil production was 4.6 billion metric tonnes, with the US overtaking Saudi Arabia.

Global oil production in metric tons 2023 | Statista

Worldwide oil production reached a new peak of more than 4.5 billion metric tons in 2023. It was the third consecutive year that figures had increased.

www.statista.com

By contrast global production of Lithium batteries was around 180000 metric tonnes in 2023, with Australia being by far the largest producer.

Global lithium mine production top countries 2023 | Statista

In 2023, Australia was the world leader in terms of lithium mine production, with an estimated output of 86,000 metric tons.

www.statista.com

That’s about 0.004% of global crude oil.

Given that you can re-use, over and over again, the battery, and then once it is dead, recycle it into a new batttery I know which I’m more concerned about from an environmental perspective.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @Noddy. Yes, I'd seen those total figures; but I've not found a source that shows for motor industry manufacturing.

 

[Noddy]

Thanks @Noddy. Yes, I'd seen those total figures; but I've not found a source that shows for motor industry manufacturing.

You also need to bear in mind that some ‘rare’ earth minerals are used in processing oil, for example cobalt to remove sulphur:

Catalysts - Catalytic Converters | Cobalt Institute

Catalysts - Discover how cobalt catalysts in catalytic converters support climate change initiatives by reducing greenhouse gases

www.cobaltinstitute.org

 

[Sun Chariot]

Exactly. I'd dearly like to see stats for motor manufacturing's consumption for all variants of vehicle-propulsion.
I suspect I'd need deity-like clearance, before getting access to that type of data...

 

[Noddy]

Exactly. I'd dearly like to see stats for motor manufacturing's consumption for all variants of vehicle-propulsion.
I suspect I'd need deity-like clearance, before getting access to that type of data...

There are numerous studies out there.

Are electric vehicles definitely better for the climate than gas-powered cars?

Yes: although electric cars' batteries make them more carbon-intensive to manufacture than gas cars, they more than make up for it by driving much cleaner under nearly any conditions.

climate.mit.edu

Which form of transport has the smallest carbon footprint?

How can individuals reduce their emissions from transport?

ourworldindata.org

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks for those links. The comparison stats on the "Climate Portal" page, are really clear.

 

[LYradial]

Sticking my neck out here but I think the way forward should be with hybrid cars, burn the fuel to produce electricity at the point of consumption has to be better than than burning it miles way and transmitting it along wires, via substations and charging points.

until such time as all our electricity can be produced from other sources than burning things this seems to be the most efficient way forward.

since the thread is is about pros and cons of electric cars I can say I have a hybrid and am delighted with it’s performance and economy

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @LYradial and welcome to the thread

I think self-charging hybrid, is the route that my wife and I will likely take, once our two diesel cars need replacing.
That being said, the majority of our weekly driving distances, are dual carriageways & motorways - so we'd be using fossil fuel whilst lugging a barely-used battery and motors about.

20+ years ago, my younger self believed hydrogen propulsion would be "the way". I recall seeing BMW's Hydrogen 7 saloon and thinking: "oh, that's a big storage cylinder in the boot".
At that time, I hadn't appreciated that a) an acceptable drive-range requires high-pressure storage; and b) hydrogen fuel is made from nonrenewable natural gas through a process that creates enormous CO2 emissions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sticking my neck out here but I think the way forward should be with hybrid cars, burn the fuel to produce electricity at the point of consumption has to be better than than burning it miles way and transmitting it along wires, via substations and charging points.

until such time as all our electricity can be produced from other sources than burning things this seems to be the most efficient way forward.

In short, it isn't, largely because power stations have all manner of emissions control features that it's impractical to fit to a passenger car. And because a lot of electricity is now generated using nuclear or renewables, it isn't all Drax and its associated muck.

Series hybrids do have the benefit of moving burning stuff away from the most harmful places (e.g. if you can geofence them not to use ICE in a city) but they aren't as good as pure EV.

 

[Ken X]

Lots of interesting stuff to digest and I look forward to reading further.

I quess my dilemma is do I get rid of a perfectly good vehicle merely because of its power source, or do I run it until its uneconomical then dispose of it and renew with an EV?

My feeling is to dispose of it would not be sensible as it is a perfectly good vehicle, well maintained, and has a good few years of life in it. I've had it from new and it does me fine. If, and when, it fails I suspect a new EV will be a no-brainer.

By then the industry will have matured further, as would the tax regime and things will be clearer. 'Course if the govt wants to offer me money to change I'm all ears but I suspect this is unlikely to happen. The other factor is the relatively high initial cost of an equivalent EV. This is going to have to seriously come down to encourage me to jump earlier. The signs are positive but traction is currently lacking.

 

[thejuggler]

Does any reader here have insight of owning (not leasing) an EV that's now 7 to 8 years old; and doing circa 12k-15k miles per year in it?
How does its annual running cost compare to "as new"?

My D segment diesel (7 years old) has done 80k miles; all but 2.6k by me. My only outlays = fuel, tyres, MOTs and services.

Probably not because the availability of EVs 8 years ago was severely limited and tech has improved vastly since then.

It probably needs another 5 years before longevity can be measured properly.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Thanks @thejuggler and, yes, I posed that question with half a mind if many would actually say "aye".
A former workmate admitted his Tesla S, circa 7 years old at the time, was showing its age in terms of range degradation and niggling faults of varying cost. He'd bought it at 2 years old and he was doing 20k miles per year in it.

It will be interesting to see what this all looks like in 5-6 years' time.

 

[Buzby]

Probably not because the availability of EVs 8 years ago

This would be 2016? I was on my third EV and from memory I had a choice of 20 models - hardly severely limiting and I thought I was spoilt for choice even then. In 2010 I’d agree choice was limited - there were no Rapid Charging models available (Fast only) and public chargepoints were usually single phase or 3-pin sockets. My Twizy took the 3 pin, and Fluence (Fast).

The jury’s still out on whether Rapid Charging craters battery packs faster, but I did limit their use to when I needed it.

 

[Noddy]

This would be 2016? I was on my third EV and from memory I had a choice of 20 models - hardly severely limiting and I thought I was spoilt for choice even then. In 2010 I’d agree choice was limited - there were no Rapid Charging models available (Fast only) and public chargepoints were usually single phase or 3-pin sockets. My Twizy took the 3 pin, and Fluence (Fast).

The jury’s still out on whether Rapid Charging craters battery packs faster, but I did limit their use to when I needed it.

The Renault Fluence wasn’t ever available in the UK and the Twizy isn’t even a car! So your 20 models are down to 18 already! Apart from Tesla’s, Leaf’s and Zoe’s virtually all the other Ev cars available at this time were built on ICE platforms, with batteries bolted into gaps, and thus they were heavily compromised and range limited.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Did you purchase your EV outright at the start?

Mine, all mine. For cash.

Sticking my neck out here but I think the way forward should be with hybrid cars, burn the fuel to produce electricity at the point of consumption has to be better than than burning it miles way and transmitting it along wires, via substations and charging points.

until such time as all our electricity can be produced from other sources than burning things this seems to be the most efficient way forward.

since the thread is is about pros and cons of electric cars I can say I have a hybrid and am delighted with it’s performance and economy

To me, 100% reliance on burning fossil fuel at around 40% efficiency (1) is not better than 58.2% reliance (2) on burning fossil fuel at 38 - 58% efficiency (3) ?

You say "all our electricity". Anything that is less than "all produced by fossils" is surely better than "all produced by fossils" (which is where we are in an ICE, and that includes non plugin hybrids).

=======
(1) Supposedly the efficiency of an ICE
(2) Supposedly the annual proportion of electricity generated from non-renewables
(3) Supposedly the efficiency of a fossil powered power station: 38% for coal; 58% for gas)

 

[Sun Chariot]

Mine, all mine. For cash.

It's the only way I go.
Post #49: a former work colleague of mine bought outright his 2 year-old Tesla S.

Going off topic (what - on my own thread?) another former workmate (previous company to that) took a new Model 3 on a Tesla finance package.
He proudly showed it to me and invited me to sit at its wheel. I rapidly discovered I couldn't actually fit my 6' 6" frame in it.
Mind you, I've had the same problem when I tried to get into a Jaguar XJ L, all Subarus, a BMW 5 series...

 

[LYradial]

Mine, all mine. For cash.

To me, 100% reliance on burning fossil fuel at around 40% efficiency (1) is not better than 58.2% reliance (2) on burning fossil fuel at 38 - 58% efficiency (3) ?

You say "all our electricity". Anything that is less than "all produced by fossils" is surely better than "all produced by fossils" (which is where we are in an ICE, and that includes non plugin hybrids).

=======
(1) Supposedly the efficiency of an ICE
(2) Supposedly the annual proportion of electricity generated from non-renewables
(3) Supposedly the efficiency of a fossil powered power station: 38% for coal; 58% for gas)

Transmission losses are 8 percent

Electricity transmission losses UK 2022 | Statista

Every year, the United Kingdom loses a share of generated electricity through transmission.

www.statista.com

 

[Sun Chariot]

@Noddy I've just seen your post #3468 on this other thread.

UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

I've seen people complain about brake discs rusting within a few years, typically when they hardly use the car. Is that because the car used the main brake discs for the parking brake, so you get rust on the exposed bits of the disc, and not under the pads? With an electric car, you might only...

www.railforums.co.uk

Oh, that Lucid is a thing of beauty and a technical marvel. I am looking at what I'll sell out of the house, before my wife calls a Solicitor...

New Lucid Air 2023 review | Auto Express

The new luxury Lucid Air blows away the electric car competition

www.autoexpress.co.uk

 

[Noddy]

@Noddy I've just seen your post #3468 on this other thread.

UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

I've seen people complain about brake discs rusting within a few years, typically when they hardly use the car. Is that because the car used the main brake discs for the parking brake, so you get rust on the exposed bits of the disc, and not under the pads? With an electric car, you might only...

www.railforums.co.uk

Oh, that Lucid is a thing of beauty and a technical marvel. I am looking at what I'll sell out of the house, before my wife calls a Solicitor...

New Lucid Air 2023 review | Auto Express

The new luxury Lucid Air blows away the electric car competition

www.autoexpress.co.uk

Yep obviously I haven’t seen one in the flesh but all the reviews and videos sound amazing. AIUI they should be coming to the UK market next year. Most importantly while Lucid are only planning remain in the mid-high end market themselves to achieve greater profitability they are aiming to licence much of their advanced technology to other manufacturers so it should make its way into cheaper cars as well.

 

[Chester1]

I think self-charging hybrid, is the route that my wife and I will likely take, once our two diesel cars need replacing.
That being said, the majority of our weekly driving distances, are dual carriageways & motorways - so we'd be using fossil fuel whilst lugging a barely-used battery and motors about.

I think diesel market share for new car sales in UK is now down to about 4%. Hybrids are a good fit for people who are replacing diesel cars. The batteries for self charging hybrids are much smaller and lighter than for EV and plug in Hybrids.

 

[trebor79]

Sticking my neck out here but I think the way forward should be with hybrid cars, burn the fuel to produce electricity at the point of consumption has to be better than than burning it miles way and transmitting it along wires, via substations and charging points.

until such time as all our electricity can be produced from other sources than burning things this seems to be the most efficient way forward.

since the thread is is about pros and cons of electric cars I can say I have a hybrid and am delighted with it’s performance and economy

That's what the Nissan e-power vehicles do and they are no more efficient than normal ICE.
Combined cycle gas turbine power station is about 80% efficient. ICE about 35%. Plus most electricity is made from renewables and nuclear now anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think diesel market share for new car sales in UK is now down to about 4%. Hybrids are a good fit for people who are replacing diesel cars. The batteries for self charging hybrids are much smaller and lighter than for EV and plug in Hybrids.

Mild hybrids only make sense if you drive in a hilly area so have plenty of opportunity to use regen. Otherwise you gain very little over simple petrol.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Lucid are ... aiming to licence much of their advanced technology to other manufacturers so it should make its way into cheaper cars as well.

This is promising - and I'll watch with much interest, over the next few years.
Lucid's Air Grand Touring has a range (510 miles) I seek; but a price tag (£117k) I cannot afford.