Locomotive Services Fleet (LSL) updates

[Iskra]

Unusual for NR to dictate train operations. D1015 + a 57 coupled rear seemed acceptable very recently.

A 52 is a lot more powerful at the rail than a single 37.

 

[Harpo]

Can both the 37’s power up in top and tail or is just the top loco and the tail is just providing ETH.

Can any loco classes ETH without a key in a manned desk? (Didn’t 33/1s had some sort of pre-heat arrangement that could??)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2024 ==

A 52 is a lot more powerful at the rail than a single 37.

Agreed. But I’m not understanding the suggestion that NR are getting involved in train operations or train configurations. That’s what the train operator’s safety case covers, not NR’s.

 

[Iskra]

Can any loco classes ETH without a key in a manned desk? (Didn’t 33/1s had some sort of pre-heat arrangement that could??)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2024 ==


Agreed. But I’m not understanding the suggestion that NR are getting involved in train operations or train configurations. That’s what the train operator’s safety case covers, not NR’s.

Is there something in the Sectional Appendix, or some special instructions perhaps for that stretch?

Nevertheless, it will be interesting to see how LSL proceed with this tour.

 

[12LDA28C]

Can both the 37’s power up in top and tail or is just the top loco and the tail is just providing ETH.

Only if there is a driver in both locos. There is no through-train control and the 37s can not currently be controlled from the DBSO.

 

[43096]

Can any loco classes ETH without a key in a manned desk?

Class 43

 

[Harpo]

Class 43

Thanks!

 

[43 302]

Why not?
Uncouple the ETH cables half way down the train. Front 37/4 provides ETH to the front half, and rear 37/4 provides to the rear half.
Simples!

And that is exactly the plan. However if 37401 is not available, I suspect they will run with a genny van, and double head for the return. Central Wales line is RA5 so a 47 would need dispensation.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Quoting the website:

Having said that, I don't actually understand why its advertised as top'n'tailing - as far as I can see from RTT, the tour doesn't actually change directions all day so the only benefit of any loco on the rear will be for the shunt moves at Crewe and Cardiff. To me, double 37s on the front would make more sense.


This could be possible, even if the 37s are top'n'tailing - sneak a duff just in front of the rear loco, connected to the coaches perhaps?

Or bolt another 1000hp on in blue star MU mode - plenty to choose from at CD. Obviously would need an ETH rider on the 37/4 then

 

[12LDA28C]

Or bolt another 1000hp on in blue star MU mode - plenty to choose from at CD. Obviously would need an ETH rider on the 37/4 then

Why would you need an 'ETH rider' in the 37/4?

 

[Harpo]

Why would you need an 'ETH rider' in the 37/4?

Needs a key in the desk for ETH to operate.

 

[43096]

Needs a key in the desk for ETH to operate.

Are you sure about that?

 

[12LDA28C]

Needs a key in the desk for ETH to operate.

Really? As far as I know on for example the Saphos tours where a 47 is kept on the rear of the train to provide train supply, the loco is left running with no key in the desk and no driver on board, but ETS is still provided which suggests there is no requirement for the desk to be 'keyed up' for ETS to be maintained.

 

[Harpo]

Really? As far as I know on for example the Saphos tours where a 47 is kept on the rear of the train to provide train supply, the loco is left running with no key in the desk and no driver on board, but ETS is still provided which suggests there is no requirement for the desk to be 'keyed up' for ETS to be maintained.

Its a question I asked on here a couple of days ago and the answer from a member hugely experienced in rolling stock was that only class 43 could ETH without a key in the desk.

It certainly ties up with my own (1980s) exploration of looking to pair no heat and ETH locos in mult.

 

[12LDA28C]

Its a question I asked on here a couple of days ago and the answer from a member hugely experienced in rolling stock was that only class 43 could ETH without a key in the desk.

That's not correct. You asked if any classes of loco could ETH without a key in the desk and Class 43 was given as an answer, not only Class 43.

 

[Harpo]

That's not correct. You asked if any classes of loco could ETH without a key in the desk and Class 43 was given as an answer, not only Class 43.

Fair point. I assumed that answer meant ‘only’.

My own (1980s!) exploration of whether a no heat and ETH pairing would work with a single driver had also returned a ‘no’ from traction inspectors who said at that time that ETH would cease when the key was removed from the ETH loco. 40 years on, I’d not be surprised to hear that mods have changed that.

 

[12LDA28C]

Fair point. I assumed that answer meant ‘only’.

My own (1980s!) exploration of whether a no heat and ETH pairing would work with a single driver had also returned a ‘no’ from traction inspectors who said at that time that ETH would cease when the key was removed from the ETH loco. 40 years on, I’d not be surprised to hear that mods have changed that.

I'm fairly sure, although happy to be corrected that in the late 1990s when Virgin CrossCountry were permitted to run LHCS with a loco on the rear of the formation, that the rear loco could be left running without a driver in the cab as long as the loco was fitted with automatic fire suppression. This was sometimes the case where the leading loco was no-heat and the rear loco was providing ETS. I assume this was done under similar arrangements.

I'm also pretty certain that a pair of locos can be worked in multi with a single driver and the one on the inside proving train supply if the one leading is no-heat.

 

[Harpo]

I'm also pretty certain that a pair of locos can be worked in multi with a single driver and the one on the inside proving train supply if the one leading is no-heat.

I’d not be surprised to find things have moved on to allow this. It was a categorical ‘can’t be done’ in the past from an excellent HQ inspector.

 

[43096]

Fair point. I assumed that answer meant ‘only’.

My own (1980s!) exploration of whether a no heat and ETH pairing would work with a single driver had also returned a ‘no’ from traction inspectors who said at that time that ETH would cease when the key was removed from the ETH loco. 40 years on, I’d not be surprised to hear that mods have changed that.

How do you think the 47/7s worked in push mode from 1979ish without having ETH on with the key out? Likewise how did the 37/4s+DBSO formations on the Cumbrian Coast keep ETH on in push mode?

 

[Wyrleybart]

My understanding (albeit BR times) was that a diesel loco separate from that powering the train, had to have a person on it to allow the engine to run and generate a supply.

Obviously things have moved on and since then and i would not be at all surprised if locos had been modified to provide ETS from a locked desk, but I am also sure that not all "jemmy keys " have been confiscated and melted down !!!

 

[Harpo]

How do you think the 47/7s worked in push mode from 1979ish without having ETH on with the key out? Likewise how did the 37/4s+DBSO formations on the Cumbrian Coast keep ETH on in push mode?

Yes. DBSO/DVT dealt with remote ETH and (I only had 86/DBSO involvement) didn’t need a key in the 86. But then the DBSO desk acted as if it were the locos desk, albeit very crudely! (No ammeter etc..)

I also recall that the system wasn’t smart enough to detect an assist loco DBSO-end, pan up, ETS connected and ETS switched on. Cue fried control cards etc..

i think the original question of how a 37/4 multied with a leading 20 provides ETH, awaits a definitive answer doesn’t it??

 

[Nym]

The answer to all of this lies with, "However LSL have modified them to work."

 

[Wyrleybart]

i think the original question of how a 37/4 multied with a leading 20 provides ETH, awaits a definitive answer doesn’t it??

20 on the front - cab leading and the 37/4 multi'd to it to ETS the stock.
The only tiny issue is that the driver doesn't see the "ETH on" bulb on the 37.

Theoretically the 20 would be 75mph and the 37/4 would be 80mph so no real impact on speed

 

[The Chimaera]

All ETS fitted locomotives that I have worked on over the years have been designed to provide supply without the need for a key in the desk. No modifications required. This ‘problem’ appears to have been invented by this forum?

 

[43096]

All ETS fitted locomotives that I have worked on over the years have been designed to provide supply without the need for a key in the desk. No modifications required. This ‘problem’ appears to have been invented by this forum?

Invented by one individual, I’d suggest.

 

[43 302]

20 on the front - cab leading and the 37/4 multi'd to it to ETS the stock.
The only tiny issue is that the driver doesn't see the "ETH on" bulb on the 37.

Theoretically the 20 would be 75mph and the 37/4 would be 80mph so no real impact on speed

As has been mentioned before, one single 37/4 cannot EH load 7 Mk3s. Hence the original plan of TNT with splitting the EH down the middle.

 

[D6130]

I'm fairly sure, although happy to be corrected that in the late 1990s when Virgin CrossCountry were permitted to run LHCS with a loco on the rear of the formation, that the rear loco could be left running without a driver in the cab as long as the loco was fitted with automatic fire suppression. This was sometimes the case where the leading loco was no-heat and the rear loco was providing ETS. I assume this was done under similar arrangements

That was certainly the case back in the 1970s with the Edinburgh-Glasgow high-speed push-pull shuttles powered by top 'n' tail class 27s....usually with an ETH 27/2 at the Edinburgh end and a steam heat 27/1 at the Glasgow end. I'm the event of a failure of the automatic fire alarm system on the trailing loco, a second man had to be provided to ride on it.

 

[Nym]

Right...(!)
This key in for ETS thing has been bugging me so I've gone and dug through some drawings of the 37/4.

There is nothing to suggest that you need a key in to make ETS work. Unless there's something that forces STR on when you push the controller into OFF or some mod that's been done since the trains were re-drawn under the Brush / GEC drawing packs.

EDIT:
BT/MT222 says it's the same for the Class 47 as well...

EDIT (again):
57/3s appear to also be the same.

Ya know, maybe, just maybe it's designed to be able to continue to provide ETS without a key in when the engine is running...?

 

[Neilo09]

Did 37401 make out from the paint shop in time ?

 

[The Chimaera]

As I commented earlier, classes I have had dealings with 31/4, 37/4, 47/4, 57/3, 86, 87, 90 all could happily provide ETS with no key in the desk. They were designed that way so they could heat stock in sidings without traincrew being present. Just the watchful eye of maintenance or ground staff.
Indeed the AC classes on DVT sets were continually supplying the stock 24/7, only turned off for maintenance or repair.

 

[Rail Quest]

Ok so the consist today has the blue/grey MK1 buffet coach, I'm assuming that's got a gen in it? Locos are 409 and 521