Derby Telegraph "Plans to convert Monsal Trail back into railway takes 'significant step forward'"

[The Planner]

Though... If one were to take this to the limit and want to reinstate the full route and allow a call at Stockport Tiviot Dale

The express route was via Hazel Grove* and what is now the freight line (being as there was no Hazel Grove chord), before continuing through to Manchester Central via Chorlton-cum-Hardy.

There seems to be mixed messaging on whether trains would go to Buxton, or whether the plan is via Chinley. IF via Chinley, then using Marple might at least avoid some of the Stockport Viaduct pathing concerns.

People quietly forget its not just reopening between Matlock to Millers Dale.

 

[Killingworth]

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the case that the now-closed Bakewell railway station was situated about half-mile from the town centre up a steep hill?

It still is, and the site has been utilised for offices. Peak Rail have wanted to get there for decades. Two major obstacles.

The A6 bridge and immediately adjacent listed bridge across the River Derwent at Rowsley. That's quite a challenge as the old A6 bridge had a more limited road clearance than would be permitted today. That would mean raising the railway on both sides with consequent gradients. That could be tricky so close to the listed stone river bridge.

The Dukes of Rutland haven't been forthcoming to requests to open the old trackbed for the Monsal Trail. Their forebears opposed the railway in the first place, requiring a cut and cover tunnel behind Haddon Hall. A heritage railway was struggling for approval. Any hint of a toe hold for a potential freight line is unlikely to be welcomed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Park'n'Rides would solve the car problem and would be backed by the National Park, for whom car congestion is an issue. It works at St Ives and Swanage. The Hope Valley line still has capacity problems even after the Dore works. Some of that would be alleviated by this through route, more direct from the East Midlands to Manchester.

All park and rides provide a link between somewhere that is easy and cheap to build a car park with good road access to a location where there is concentration of economic activity within a small area - city centres, airports, and in some special cases, smaller town centres where the road access is poor (eg St Ives, as you say).

The Peak district does not have a concentration of economic activity within a small area.

A clapped out 60-plate Enviro200 isn't tempting anyone out of their car.

There is, of course, a solution to this issue that is much cheaper and easier than building a new railway through a national park.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is, of course, a solution to this issue that is much cheaper and easier than building a new railway through a national park.

Very true.

Public transport from the Manchester end needs to be vastly improved into the national park one way or another. I’m not convinced that the solution is rail either, but equally the current solution really doesn’t work.

 

[Brush 4]

I was just using P&R in principle as a concept. I don't live anywhere near there and have only driven the A6 once and not been to Peak Rail, yet.

P&R though can be adapted to suit a particular area's needs, it isn't set in stone (or tarmac). It can take people into or out of a place. Locals to Manchester/Buxton/Derby. Tourists into the Peak District. Success would be guaranteed, if it was combined with new restrictions on car use for visitors by reducing parking in Bakewell and elsewhere. Most authorities are trying to reduce car usage so they are unlikely to be against such a scheme.
Okehampton Parkway (Interchange) is intended to be a railhead for as far away as Bude and Launceston amongst others. Only time will tell whether that will work.
Not sure what the difference is between a P&R and a Parkway. They seem to perform similar functions.

 

[Meerkat]

Build a railway into the Peak District and it will bring commuter money in, making living in their home town/village even more impossible for the locals.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Very true.

Public transport from the Manchester end needs to be vastly improved into the national park one way or another. I’m not convinced that the solution is rail either, but equally the current solution really doesn’t work.

Not only did Stockport lose the TransPeak service to Nottingham (the last time that I travelled on it was on a coach with a table that had two seats facing the rear and two seats facing the front) which I understand was scrapped soon afterwards, but also the service to Tideswell (not sure if it was the 67 or the X67) where we wanted to see the church known as the Cathedral of the Peak.

 

[Killingworth]

I was just using P&R in principle as a concept. I don't live anywhere near there and have only driven the A6 once and not been to Peak Rail, yet.

P&R though can be adapted to suit a particular area's needs, it isn't set in stone (or tarmac). It can take people into or out of a place. Locals to Manchester/Buxton/Derby. Tourists into the Peak District. Success would be guaranteed, if it was combined with new restrictions on car use for visitors by reducing parking in Bakewell and elsewhere. Most authorities are trying to reduce car usage so they are unlikely to be against such a scheme.
Okehampton Parkway (Interchange) is intended to be a railhead for as far away as Bude and Launceston amongst others. Only time will tell whether that will work.
Not sure what the difference is between a P&R and a Parkway. They seem to perform similar functions.

There are 389 free car parking spaces at Hazel Grove, according to National Rail's website. Currently that would be excellent for accessing the Hope Valley and Buxton lines. I gather it is very lightly used.

Wait a minute, seems it's being closed; https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/short-lived-hazel-grove-park-and-ride-to-become-ambulance-hub/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Wait a minute, seems it's being closed; https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/short-lived-hazel-grove-park-and-ride-to-become-ambulance-hub/

Is it not the case that when the Ambulance Service moves there from its current site near the Glass Pyramid, that the replacement bus depot for the one at Daw Bank will be situated on that former site?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

There are 389 free car parking spaces at Hazel Grove, according to National Rail's website. Currently that would be excellent for accessing the Hope Valley and Buxton lines. I gather it is very lightly used.

Wait a minute, seems it's being closed; https://www.placenorthwest.co.uk/short-lived-hazel-grove-park-and-ride-to-become-ambulance-hub/

The P & R being closed is for the 192 bus service into Manchester - which was never going to work - and not the station car-park. It is nowhere near the station. Stopping train services to Sheffield for the likes of Edale etc., of course, run via Romiley.

 

[Killingworth]

The P & R being closed is for the 192 bus service into Manchester - which was never going to work - and not the station car-park. It is nowhere near the station. Stopping train services to Sheffield for the likes of Edale etc., of course, run via Romiley.

Stopping services have been running to Sheffield via Hazel Grove, temporarily, since March.

 

[deltic08]

Indeed. Though you have to find the money to pay for a half-hourly service and you have to have adequate capacity to cover that (no more than 13 minutes between each passing loop, no slow single lead junctions etc).

The longest section on the York-Knaresborough line is the six miles of single line between Cattal and Knaresborough taking 8/9 minutes depending on service. North Yorkshire CC have had £11 million for years to redouble this section topped up to £14milion in recent years. NR have taken so long to do the job that £14million is now not enough. They came up with tokenless block as a way of allowing 2tph and this was completed in 2021/22 when 2tph were introduced. One set of 20mph turnouts was replaced with 40 mph turnouts to allow a higher speed into Cattal station. The single lead junction at Skelton is being altered as we speak by introducing a third line from here into York to avoid confliction with ECML traffic.
I do not know who is paying for the extra 1tph. Either DfT or NYCC.

 

[yorksrob]

That may be a bit ambitious

Surely the model begins with the service being through and perhaps being semi-fast at the Manchester end (since the Manchester - Buxton line is 2 track and can continue to support a stopping train as well). Some work between Matlock and Ambergate might allow for a second semi-fast service and hence the longer distance train to skip a few stops on that stretch.

I cannot see there will be 3 services between Matlock and Derby to accommodate a fast, semi-fast and the necessary stopper.

Given the rationale for re-opening is access to the peaks, the train with the fewest stops would be the one not to include.

Realistically this would need a double junction at Ambergate, meaningful doubling between Ambergate and Matlock with new platforms at several stations, and a new largely double track route. That's a significant amount of work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2024 ==


Another low capex possibility would be to extend the EMR services by running to Northwood, and using an Optare Solo to run a Northwood - Bakewell shuttle open for free to rail ticket holders. You'd need another EMR driver and guard and another 170 at minimum.

Of course, you can't really do that without also bunging the preserved railway a huge amount of money. Rowsley South isn't exactly well located either, but at least this option would bring Darley Dale and Northwood in closer reach of Derby and offer direct services to Nottingham.

There would be some works needed at Ambergate, but fundamentally I'd suggest running the existing Matlock stopper to Buxton and run a longer distance, faster service via Chinley.

Once the Hope Valley stopper reverts to its original route, there'll be a vacant path via Stockport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once the Hope Valley stopper reverts to its original route, there'll be a vacant path via Stockport.

Does anyone know the time period set for the replacement of the Greek Street roundabout bridge that affects all services coming into Stockport railway station and the time that the bridge replacement will take?

 

[A0]

Park'n'Rides would solve the car problem and would be backed by the National Park, for whom car congestion is an issue. It works at St Ives and Swanage. The Hope Valley line still has capacity problems even after the Dore works. Some of that would be alleviated by this through route, more direct from the East Midlands to Manchester.

But if you were setting up Park and Rides for the southern Peak District, logically you'd site it near the M1 or A50 corridors and do it as a Bus P&R to allow it to conveniently serve as many attractions as possible, so Sheffield, Chesterfield, Ashbourne - not Matlock which is out of the way, and certainly nowhere near the Peak line.

 

[The Planner]

Does anyone know the time period set for the replacement of the Greek Street roundabout bridge that affects all services coming into Stockport railway station and the time that the bridge replacement will take?

Next summer and three weeks. There was a thread somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2024 ==

There would be some works needed at Ambergate, but fundamentally I'd suggest running the existing Matlock stopper to Buxton and run a longer distance, faster service via Chinley.

Once the Hope Valley stopper reverts to its original route, there'll be a vacant path via Stockport.

There won't be a vacant path from Chinley to New Mills though.

 

[yorksrob]

Next summer and three weeks. There was a thread somewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2024 ==


There won't be a vacant path from Chinley to New Mills though.

Perhaps the signalling at Chinley is due updating.

In terms of number of trains, Borough Market Junction it ain't.

 

[Killingworth]

Perhaps the signalling at Chinley is due updating.

In terms of number of trains, Borough Market Junction it ain't.

The signalling from Earles Sidings westwards all needs updating, but with the cement works due to close by 2042 forward planning might be looking at what's going to be needed thereafter? Assuming such details are considered if only to put off a decision. .

 

[yorksrob]

The signalling from Earles Sidings westwards all needs updating, but with the cement works due to close by 2042 forward planning might be looking at what's going to be needed thereafter? Assuming such details are considered if only to put off a decision. .

When the cement works closes, it would be worth configuring/retaining a couple of loops in the area. However that's off topic.

In the meantime, there are signal boxes either side of Chinley. I wonder if they have enough white levers to enable the blocks to be shortened comparatively easily.

 

[Killingworth]

When the cement works closes, it would be worth configuring/retaining a couple of loops in the area. However that's off topic.

In the meantime, there are signal boxes either side of Chinley. I wonder if they have enough white levers to enable the blocks to be shortened comparatively easily.

On the former, yes, off this topic, but there's a suggestion of a possible heritage type operation between the sidings and the site of the repurposed works site. Maybe several options from that.

On the second, there seems to be reluctance to make changes like that with full resignalling long postponed.

 

[Brush 4]

But if you were setting up Park and Rides for the southern Peak District, logically you'd site it near the M1 or A50 corridors and do it as a Bus P&R to allow it to conveniently serve as many attractions as possible, so Sheffield, Chesterfield, Ashbourne - not Matlock which is out of the way, and certainly nowhere near the Peak line.

They can go there as well, to serve other areas. Too far away for the Peak District itself. All the National Parks need P&R, Car congestion has been a problem since the 60's. Locations to be decided locally. Oxenholme for the Lakes, a short drive up the A65 from J36.

 

[yorksrob]

It still is, and the site has been utilised for offices. Peak Rail have wanted to get there for decades. Two major obstacles.

The A6 bridge and immediately adjacent listed bridge across the River Derwent at Rowsley. That's quite a challenge as the old A6 bridge had a more limited road clearance than would be permitted today. That would mean raising the railway on both sides with consequent gradients. That could be tricky so close to the listed stone river bridge.

The Dukes of Rutland haven't been forthcoming to requests to open the old trackbed for the Monsal Trail. Their forebears opposed the railway in the first place, requiring a cut and cover tunnel behind Haddon Hall. A heritage railway was struggling for approval. Any hint of a toe hold for a potential freight line is unlikely to be welcomed.

The Dukes of Rutland can be told to jog on by act of parliament if need be.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Once the Hope Valley stopper reverts to its original route, there'll be a vacant path via Stockport.

Maybe I am wrong, but was the matter of any spare path that became available through Stockport one that would be given to the Chester- Altincham-Stockport-Manchester routed mid-Cheshire line?

 

[yorksrob]

Maybe I am wrong, but was the matter of any spare path that became available through Stockport one that would be given to the Chester- Altincham-Stockport-Manchester routed mid-Cheshire line?

To be fair, that route is also deserving.

As a Southern Region man, I'd suggest maybe joining/splitting the trains.

 

[Cowley]

Just to try and keep things vaguely on topic, there’s a new thread about the bridge works at Stockport below:

Greek Street bridge replacement Stockport

Does anyone know the time period set for the replacement of the Greek Street roundabout bridge that affects all services coming into Stockport railway station and the time that the bridge replacement will take? Believe preliminary work is expected to start quite soon and, overall, the project...

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