Derby Telegraph "Plans to convert Monsal Trail back into railway takes 'significant step forward'"

[Mag_seven]

Can we get back to discussing proposals to convert the Monsal Trail back into a railway please.

thanks

 

[Starmill]

The route between Bere Alston and Tavistock is largely clear and owned I think, by the council.

I don't think we can blame lack of mothballing for the cost escalation in this case.

The proposed scheme requires both land take and also a fully-fledged consent order. These cost a lot, and they take years to get right. Get them wrong, and you're at enormous risk via Judicial Review.

The Matlock - Buxton route obviously has all this in spades, all the way along. It'd also have influential opponents adding cost at every stage.

 

[A0]

A factor that bus proponents nearly always fail to mention is the permanence issue. If a railway re-opens (at considerable expense, yes), people will then make life decisions based on its existence; they will in some cases make their work and house buying decisions on the assumption the railway will still be there in twenty years time. A train service can revitalise a town and its surrounding area.

No bus service will ever be trusted to keep the same route or minimum hourly frequency, or to even exist next year, let alone in a decade or two, no matter what promises or "guarantees" are made about its longevity.

Note this isn't to say this particular reopening is or isn't viable, or that this issue is highly relevant in this case, just to point out that in some respects, bus does not and cannot equal train.

Bit in bold - you'll need to provide some evidence to support that, because on the face of it, that isn't necessarily true - there's little evidence places like Mansfield have improved since the rail link was reinstated almost 30 years ago, or Ebbw Vale nearly 20 years ago.

Both still have significantly above average rates of poverty, economic inactivity and poor life outcomes, despite being part of rail reinstatements and don't seem to have improved their position.

 

[Dr Hoo]

No bus service will ever be trusted to keep the same route or minimum hourly frequency, or to even exist next year, let alone in a decade or two, no matter what promises or "guarantees" are made about its longevity.

Rail is not exempt from this. Swanline, in South Wales, had been a long-running disappointment on this front despite connecting several disadvantaged communities.

Anyway. How seriously ‘deprived’ is Bakewell in comparison to some former industrial areas?

 

[Nottingham59]

Anyway. How seriously ‘deprived’ is Bakewell in comparison to some former industrial areas?

Bakewell is also a former industrial area. Lumford Mill was Arkwright's third, and nearly as big as the first two put together. Also lead mining, black marble quarries. But lost out when water power from the River Wye gave way to coal.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I find buses uncomfortable for long periods.

In the area of this thread, would you envisage any bus ride to be of long periods time-wise?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Bakewell is also a former industrial area. Lumford Mill was Arkwright's third, and nearly as big as the first two put together. Also lead mining, black marble quarries. But lost out when water power from the River Wye gave way to coal.

An interesting historical titbit but given that mill closed as such in 1970 and now hosts part of a business park are you seriously suggesting that Bakewell is still depressed as a result (and needs a rail link as its best hope of pulling out of the pit of poverty)?

 

[Nottingham59]

An interesting historical titbit but given that mill closed as such in 1970 and now hosts part of a business park are you seriously suggesting that Bakewell is still depressed as a result (and needs a rail link as its best hope of pulling out of the pit of poverty)?

Not at all.

I was just pointing out that not all former industrial areas are depressed. That includes prosperous market towns like Bakewell and much of London (Docklands, Great West Road, Enfield etc etc.); Oxford suburbs (think Cowley); central Manchester; Reading; Bristol etc.

Good transport links are vitally important to bring prosperity through reducing transport costs and agglomeration benefits to city regions, but Matlock-Chinley is not one of these.

 

[deltic08]

The route via the A6 takes around 43 miles, and anything from 1h 15m to 1h45m in typical conditions according to Google Maps. Isn't that fast for a local bus service on a rural route?

1 hour 15mins for 43 miles does seem very fast for a fare stage bus. I doubt I could do it by car in that time on that road. ChrisC claims it takes over 2 hours Who is correct. Is that Nottingham-Buxton or just Derby-Buxton?
Is there a Nottingham-Buxton bus

Bicycles, yes; but heavy luggage, wheelchairs and ‘prams’ (buggies, strollers, pushchairs) are all routinely carried on all types of buses and coaches. I took some heavy luggage on a bus yesterday, which already had wheelchairs and ‘prams’ on it when I boarded.

Well, I tried. I was thinking more prams than buggies.

 

[deltic08]

Fortunately we don't have to, because we have economic appraisal to test what's good value for money. On low demand regional routes that's almost always buses, not trains.

.Harrogate-York busses have been decimated since Harrogate-York trains went from hourly to every 30 minutes. According to the bus timetable they are twice a week only. Travellers have voted with their feet and they prefer the train for this 20 mile journey. Provide it and they will come.

 

[yorksrob]

Good transport links are vitally important to bring prosperity through reducing transport costs and agglomeration benefits to city regions, but Matlock-Chinley is not one of these.

Are you saying that prosperous areas don't need good transport links ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2024 ==

In the area of this thread, would you envisage any bus ride to be of long periods time-wise?

I would say getting the bus from Buxton to matlock (on top of a train journey) is long at an hour plus.

I did investigate this option to get to Matlock once when EMR were on strike, however as it happens the football match was called off.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Bicycles, yes; but heavy luggage, wheelchairs and ‘prams’ (buggies, strollers, pushchairs) are all routinely carried on all types of buses and coaches.

High Peak's branded buses for the TransPeak service are quite elderly Enviro200s. The one thing the Enviro200 is not blessed with is any sort of luggage space.

I took TransPeak from Bakewell to Buxton back in May. It was a truly horrible experience. And the one thing I certainly wouldn't describe it as is fast.

Whether that’s justification to re-open the Monsal Trail, probably not. Although a good train service personally would take a lot of cars off the road as the tourists could/would take the train instead of the frankly awful drive on the A6. If you want to get traffic out of the Peak District National Park, the current appalling bus offering from the Manchester end simply won’t cut the mustard.

It’s a shame as, from the Sheffield end, the Peak Sightseer tourist buses seem to be doing really well.

 

[A0]

High Peak's branded buses for the TransPeak service are quite elderly Enviro200s. The one thing the Enviro200 is not blessed with is any sort of luggage space.

I took TransPeak from Bakewell to Buxton back in May. It was a truly horrible experience. And the one thing I certainly wouldn't describe it as is fast.

Whether that’s justification to re-open the Monsal Trail, probably not. Although a good train service personally would take a lot of cars off the road as the tourists could/would take the train instead of the frankly awful drive on the A6. If you want to get traffic out of the Peak District National Park, the current appalling bus offering from the Manchester end simply won’t cut the mustard.

It’s a shame as, from the Sheffield end, the Peak Sightseer tourist buses seem to be doing really well.

Bit in bold - there is scant evidence that tourists will change their mode of transport, usually because they are arriving from much further afield and those connecting journeys may be significantly longer / slower than the direct car journey.

 

[Brush 4]

Park'n'Rides would solve the car problem and would be backed by the National Park, for whom car congestion is an issue. It works at St Ives and Swanage. The Hope Valley line still has capacity problems even after the Dore works. Some of that would be alleviated by this through route, more direct from the East Midlands to Manchester.

 

[Starmill]

.Harrogate-York busses have been decimated since Harrogate-York trains went from hourly to every 30 minutes. According to the bus timetable they are twice a week only. Travellers have voted with their feet and they prefer the train for this 20 mile journey. Provide it and they will come.

Indeed. Though you have to find the money to pay for a half-hourly service and you have to have adequate capacity to cover that (no more than 13 minutes between each passing loop, no slow single lead junctions etc).

 

[Topological]

Although a long time ago, Project Rio is probably the best guideline for what could be done. The HSTs that ran non-stop from Leicester to Stockport via the Dore South Curve were not well loaded, but by the end there was probably still a 2-car DMU full. A decent number got on/off at Leicester.

This used to be my rationale for re-opening between Matlock and Buxton, because if you could get 1/2 a carriage per hour from Leicester, then maybe adding in a Derby stop and replacing Leicester with Nottingham could fill a 2-car.

However, the question then becomes whether an hourly 2-carriage train full of passengers could ever be a rationale for re-opening, especially re-opening where so much work is involved.

Getting the bus working well would be a sensible first step. But, the demise of the Manchester to Nottingham bus does not bode well.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But, the demise of the Manchester to Nottingham bus does not bode well.

The demise was operational as much as anything else.

TransPeak, back in the day, was operated by Trent Barton. Trent Barton then disposed of their Dove Holes depot in 2012 to a new company, High Peak, which is a 50/50 operation between Centrebus and Trent Barton. As a result the route is exclusively operated from the Dove Holes end, which means that it has been curtailed to Buxton at the northern end and Derby at the southern end.

The main issue, really, is the quality of the buses HighPeak use. A clapped out 60-plate Enviro200 isn't tempting anyone out of their car.

 

[Topological]

The demise was operational as much as anything else.

TransPeak, back in the day, was operated by Trent Barton. Trent Barton then disposed of their Dove Holes depot in 2012 to a new company, High Peak, which is a 50/50 operation between Centrebus and Trent Barton. As a result the route is exclusively operated from the Dove Holes end, which means that it has been curtailed to Buxton at the northern end and Derby at the southern end.

The main issue, really, is the quality of the buses HighPeak use. A clapped out 60-plate Enviro200 isn't tempting anyone out of their car.

Very interesting, so basically we can discard the demise of TransPeak as evidence either way.

It does mean that finding a new operator to subsidise for the new and improved TransPeak would be harder than just asking Trent Barton to bring it back. However, I suspect the route could be put out to tender and the usual major players would look at it if the subsidy was right (I assume the subsidy would be right given that there is a huge margin between the subsidy and the price of a railway).

Things are complicated slightly at the Manchester end of the route by the way that busses are organised under the new system. However, the major operators all have Manchester area depots still and presumably a deal could be struck with GMPTE (or whatever Greater Manchester Passenger Transport Executive is called today) to allow the use of a Manchester depot for some of the new buses.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Park'n'Rides would solve the car problem and would be backed by the National Park, for whom car congestion is an issue. It works at St Ives and Swanage. The Hope Valley line still has capacity problems even after the Dore works. Some of that would be alleviated by this through route, more direct from the East Midlands to Manchester.

Could you clarify what operating model you have in mind for ‘park and ride’ (by rail) in the Peak District.

The benefits of rural P+R were recognised many years ago with banning of car access to the upper Goyt Valley and running a shuttle minibus on some days, to avoid traffic mayhem on very narrow roads.

Both St Ives and Swanage are short distance shuttles to ‘honeypot’ town centres. St Ives is relatively straightforward to resource with a GWR depot fairly close by.

Swanage is more of a combined experience with a volunteer-supported heritage line as part of the package. It’s a little bit what Peak Rail has done. Park at Rowsley South and have a trip to visit Matlock. That aspect hasn’t been spectacularly successful in my view.

What sort of start and destination points and fares structure did you have in mind for the Matlock-Chinley/Buxton area?

 

[The Planner]

Park'n'Rides would solve the car problem and would be backed by the National Park, for whom car congestion is an issue. It works at St Ives and Swanage. The Hope Valley line still has capacity problems even after the Dore works. Some of that would be alleviated by this through route, more direct from the East Midlands to Manchester.

If anything it makes it worse, as presumably you will be adding more trains from Chinley to/from Greater Manchester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If anything it makes it worse, as presumably you will be adding more trains from Chinley to/from Greater Manchester.

Talking of Chinley, is that on the line section from the New Mills area that has been out of action for sometime (originally planned for only six weeks) due to earth movements of an embankment?

 

[Killingworth]

Park'n'Rides would solve the car problem and would be backed by the National Park, for whom car congestion is an issue. It works at St Ives and Swanage. The Hope Valley line still has capacity problems even after the Dore works. Some of that would be alleviated by this through route, more direct from the East Midlands to Manchester.

The Hope Valley route as such doesn't have capacity issues.

Traveller demand could be met if stock were available and prioritised to the route. It currently isn't so can't be.

The capacity issue is primarily from Stockport into Piccadilly and less so from Dore into Sheffield.

This proposed reopening doesn't in itself solve either of these constraints- and might add to the former!

 

[yorksrob]

Although a long time ago, Project Rio is probably the best guideline for what could be done. The HSTs that ran non-stop from Leicester to Stockport via the Dore South Curve were not well loaded, but by the end there was probably still a 2-car DMU full. A decent number got on/off at Leicester.

This used to be my rationale for re-opening between Matlock and Buxton, because if you could get 1/2 a carriage per hour from Leicester, then maybe adding in a Derby stop and replacing Leicester with Nottingham could fill a 2-car.

However, the question then becomes whether an hourly 2-carriage train full of passengers could ever be a rationale for re-opening, especially re-opening where so much work is involved.

Getting the bus working well would be a sensible first step. But, the demise of the Manchester to Nottingham bus does not bode well.

Ideally the line would have both local and longer distance trains serving the area (along with freight).

 

[Topological]

Ideally the line would have both local and longer distance trains serving the area (along with freight).

That may be a bit ambitious

Surely the model begins with the service being through and perhaps being semi-fast at the Manchester end (since the Manchester - Buxton line is 2 track and can continue to support a stopping train as well). Some work between Matlock and Ambergate might allow for a second semi-fast service and hence the longer distance train to skip a few stops on that stretch.

I cannot see there will be 3 services between Matlock and Derby to accommodate a fast, semi-fast and the necessary stopper.

Given the rationale for re-opening is access to the peaks, the train with the fewest stops would be the one not to include.

 

[Starmill]

Ideally the line would have both local and longer distance trains serving the area (along with freight).

Realistically this would need a double junction at Ambergate, meaningful doubling between Ambergate and Matlock with new platforms at several stations, and a new largely double track route. That's a significant amount of work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2024 ==

That may be a bit ambitious

Surely the model begins with the service being through and perhaps being semi-fast at the Manchester end (since the Manchester - Buxton line is 2 track and can continue to support a stopping train as well). Some work between Matlock and Ambergate might allow for a second semi-fast service and hence the longer distance train to skip a few stops on that stretch.

I cannot see there will be 3 services between Matlock and Derby to accommodate a fast, semi-fast and the necessary stopper.

Given the rationale for re-opening is access to the peaks, the train with the fewest stops would be the one not to include.

Another low capex possibility would be to extend the EMR services by running to Northwood, and using an Optare Solo to run a Northwood - Bakewell shuttle open for free to rail ticket holders. You'd need another EMR driver and guard and another 170 at minimum.

Of course, you can't really do that without also bunging the preserved railway a huge amount of money. Rowsley South isn't exactly well located either, but at least this option would bring Darley Dale and Northwood in closer reach of Derby and offer direct services to Nottingham.

 

[6Gman]

How about residents of Matlock studying in Manchester or residents of Buxton studying in Derby ? Much easier to take ones washing home to mum.

Not sure that's going to convince any government that it's worth the cost ...

 

[The Planner]

Talking of Chinley, is that on the line section from the New Mills area that has been out of action for sometime (originally planned for only six weeks) due to earth movements of an embankment?

That issue is on the Marple line.

 

[Topological]

That issue is on the Marple line.

Though... If one were to take this to the limit and want to reinstate the full route and allow a call at Stockport Tiviot Dale

The express route was via Hazel Grove* and what is now the freight line (being as there was no Hazel Grove chord), before continuing through to Manchester Central via Chorlton-cum-Hardy.

There seems to be mixed messaging on whether trains would go to Buxton, or whether the plan is via Chinley. IF via Chinley, then using Marple might at least avoid some of the Stockport Viaduct pathing concerns.

 

[zwk500]

That may be a bit ambitious

Surely the model begins with the service being through and perhaps being semi-fast at the Manchester end (since the Manchester - Buxton line is 2 track and can continue to support a stopping train as well). Some work between Matlock and Ambergate might allow for a second semi-fast service and hence the longer distance train to skip a few stops on that stretch.

I cannot see there will be 3 services between Matlock and Derby to accommodate a fast, semi-fast and the necessary stopper.

Given the rationale for re-opening is access to the peaks, the train with the fewest stops would be the one not to include.

By far the most realistic propostion is to reopen matlock as far as Bakewell with an hourly service. A single line needing only a handful of axle counters at Ambergate junction, and a bit of fettling to bring the travel time down sufficiently for a robust journey from Derby or Nottingham.

A through route racks up costs far quicker than benefits. Bakewell is a modest step that gives a honeypot town in the heart of the peaks a viable rail connection for people to plan round.

There are a number of challenges - getting journey times down for an hourly service with 1 unit on the branch at any time, and the connections to Peak rail (if any are kept) spring to mind, but they are all things that have been solved one way or another in other contexts.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the case that the now-closed Bakewell railway station was situated about half-mile from the town centre up a steep hill?