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Manchester-Bury: Unique Electrification System

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Bevan Price

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I wonder if - but for WW1, and the subsequent takeover by LNWR then LMSR - might L&YR have continued with further electrification projects, e.g. Manchester to Oldham Royton, Middleton & Rochdale ??
 
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Merle Haggard

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I wonder if - but for WW1, and the subsequent takeover by LNWR then LMSR - might L&YR have continued with further electrification projects, e.g. Manchester to Oldham Royton, Middleton & Rochdale ??

The LNWR also electrified early on, though on a different system of course. Even the Midland managed a bit (I think - Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham before grouping ???). So surprising that the LMS didn't do much.
 

etr221

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I wonder if - but for WW1, and the subsequent takeover by LNWR then LMSR - might L&YR have continued with further electrification projects, e.g. Manchester to Oldham Royton, Middleton & Rochdale ??
My understanding is the L&YR did have such plans (which I have read was why the Manchester-Bury trains had destianation blinds)
 

Springs Branch

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I wonder if - but for WW1, and the subsequent takeover by LNWR then LMSR - might L&YR have continued with further electrification projects, e.g. Manchester to Oldham Royton, Middleton & Rochdale ??
My understanding is the L&YR did have such plans (which I have read was why the Manchester-Bury trains had destianation blinds)
If the L&YR or its immediate successors had gone ahead with more electrification from Victoria, I wonder if they would have switched to conventional 600 / 650V top contact third rail?

By the time they would be extending, this was becoming pretty much standard kit for third rail (L&Y and Mersey Railway in Liverpool, NER on Tyneside, LNWR in North London/Watford - not to mention "South of the River"). That would presumably mean converting the Bury line & rolling stock to the lower voltage - but surely better than persisting and locking in a unique, non-standard system for the future.
 

billh

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Eric Laithwaite put together in the 1960s in his university lab a trial linear motor, simplistically a chair on rails powered by a reaction plate between the rails. It went about 50 metres and terminated in a cushioned bumper. He appeared with it on the Blue Peter TV programme, and inevitably sent John Noakes down it ...

Few operations took up the linear motor, but one that did was the mainstream Vancouver Skytrain transit system in Canada, opened in 1986 and somewhat of DLR size and scale. After about 20 years of experience on the first two lines, possibly the largest scale operation of linear motors, when the third line was built and opened there it used conventional electric motors.

Skytrain opened for the very well attended Expo86 World Fair in Vancouver, which also had a Japanese Maglev demonstrator in the fairgrounds, which was extremely disappointing to ride; having queued for a long time to do so it got up to little more than walking pace, and could only operate once every 15 minutes due to overheating of the equipment. It was quite apparent that the technology had little to offer, and so it proved. However, I'm sure Eric Laithwaite must have gone over to see the two new systems then.
I think i'm right that Laithwaite's test track was set up in part of the Gorton Loco works in east Manchester. At the time, Gorton was in the process of being closed down so there would have been spare room for a temporary test track and it was only 5 minutes up the road from Manchester University.
 

norbitonflyer

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By the time they would be extending, this was becoming pretty much standard kit for third rail (L&Y and Mersey Railway in Liverpool, NER on Tyneside, LNWR in North London/Watford - not to mention "South of the River").
LNWR used four-rail, to be compatible with the Bakerloo trains between Queens Park and watford Junction

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

From Beeching to 10 trams per hour - surely this is the best service on a route proposed for closure?
How about Wimbledon-West Croydon? Or for that matter Elmers End to Coombe Road, which was actually closed.
 

Western Lord

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From Beeching to 10 trams per hour - surely this is the best service on a route proposed for closure?
On the other side of the coin, Bury to Bacup went from trains every half hour (every fifteen minutes on Saturday afternoons) to nothing.
 

etr221

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If the L&YR or its immediate successors had gone ahead with more electrification from Victoria, I wonder if they would have switched to conventional 600 / 650V top contact third rail?

By the time they would be extending, this was becoming pretty much standard kit for third rail (L&Y and Mersey Railway in Liverpool, NER on Tyneside, LNWR in North London/Watford - not to mention "South of the River"). That would presumably mean converting the Bury line & rolling stock to the lower voltage - but surely better than persisting and locking in a unique, non-standard system for the future.
Even when the Manchester-Bury electrification was done, the 600-700 V dc top contact third (and sometimes fourth) rail was common, though position of the thrd rail varied, so there was a sense in which it was non-standard from the start - except that at the time, there was no real concept of 'standard'. It even differed from the L&Y's own Liverpool area electrification. What the L&Y's motives for choosing it were, I don't know: whether it was just felt a better choice for the Manchester area, or was a precursor for 'main line' trans-Pennine electrification: noting that the NER York-Newcastle scheme considered using a similar voltage 3rd rail, with overhead only for yards, etc. at an early stage in its development.
 

billio

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From Beeching to 10 trams per hour - surely this is the best service on a route proposed for closure?
My father used the Bury electrics to commute from Bury or Radcliffe to Manchester. In his opinion the data used to justify the proposal was a complete fabrication of the actual use. I think those who reviewed the closure were equally unimpressed.
Trains used to run every 10 minutes in the rush hour and there were some extras starting from Prestwich. (I am not sure whether the remains of the Prestwich bay platform is still visible.) Having traveled on the line in the last years of the service, BR did their best to run it down with the most uncomfortable stock I have ridden in. (Mind you the early years of Metrolink had the trams swaying and crashing from side to side. I was surprised the drivers could keep control of the tram. I don't know what its like now.)
 

Springs Branch

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My father used the Bury electrics to commute from Bury or Radcliffe to Manchester. In his opinion the data used to justify the proposal was a complete fabrication of the actual use. I think those who reviewed the closure were equally unimpressed.
Trains used to run every 10 minutes in the rush hour and there were some extras starting from Prestwich.
I don't normally try to justify or condone the "lies, damned lies and statistics" used in many of the Beeching proposals - but I do wonder, with some of the busy commuter routes which were unexpectedly listed to be axed, if someone was looking at the trends in their usage.

A good few well-established commuter routes saw a steep drop-off in patronage from the mid-1950s into the 60s as car ownership grew. If you did have a car, it wasn't out of the question at that time to commute into Manchester or Liverpool and park every day in the city centre (especially if you were someone living in the more prosperous suburbs and were entitled to a company car). Which eventually translated into less frequent trains in both peak and off-peak hours.

I suspect the Bury line might have been one of these victims. When BR built the fleet of Class 504s in the late 1950s, they seem to have built far too many for the traffic offering, meaning a good number of units went into long term storage at the back of Bury depot and eventual scrap with few miles on the clock (and still in green livery). I believe the North London and Watford DC lines saw the same thing - resulting in the LMR having too many 1950s-build Class 501s than they really needed.

Thinking charitably, maybe BR management at the time drew trend lines for the lines' falling usage over the past 5 or so years, extrapolated straight lines into the future and so concluded "by 1973, the trend line will hit the axis - there will be zero passengers using the Bury line". Of course, nothing in nature or society goes in straight lines for very long.

Having traveled on the line in the last years of the service, BR did their best to run it down with the most uncomfortable stock I have ridden in. (Mind you the early years of Metrolink had the trams swaying and crashing from side to side. I was surprised the drivers could keep control of the tram. I don't know what its like now.)
There's regular discussion in these forums of the 'lively' ride to be had on the 25kV Class 304 EMUs around Manchester. Definitely true in many circumstances - but I recall the Class 504s (which were of similar vintage) could certainly be relied on for a good bounce when they got up to any kind of speed on the Bury line's jointed track. I can't remember this 'feature' being mentioned much until now - and whether any of Longsight's (allegedly incorrect) bogie maintenance procedures were repeated at Bury depot.
 
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43096

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There's regular discussion in these forums of the 'lively' ride to be had on the 25kV Class 304 EMUs around Manchester. Definitely true in many circumstances - but I recall the Class 504s (which were of similar vintage) could certainly be relied on for a good bounce when they got up to any kind of speed on the Bury line's jointed track. I can't remember this 'feature' being mentioned much until now - and whether any of Longsight's (allegedly incorrect) bogie maintenance procedures were repeated at Bury depot.
I don’t recall any difference between the Longsight and Crewe allocated 304 batches, so maybe it was a regional LMR thing?
 

Mr. SW

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I don't normally try to justify or condone the "lies, damned lies and statistics" used in many of the Beeching proposals - but I do wonder, with some of the busy commuter routes which were unexpectedly listed to be axed, if someone was looking at the trends in their usage.

A good few well-established commuter routes saw a steep drop-off in patronage from the mid-1950s into the 60s as car ownership grew. If you did have a car, it wasn't out of the question at that time to commute into Manchester or Liverpool and park every day in the city centre (especially if you were someone living in the more prosperous suburbs and were entitled to a company car). Which eventually translated into less frequent trains in both peak and off-peak hours.

I suspect the Bury line might have been one of these victims. When BR built the fleet of Class 504s in the late 1950s, they seem to have built far too many for the traffic offering, meaning a good number of units went into long term storage at the back of Bury depot and eventual scrap with few miles on the clock (and still in green livery). I believe the North London and Watford DC lines saw the same thing - resulting in the LMR having too many 1950s-build Class 501s than they really needed.

Thinking charitably, maybe BR management at the time drew trend lines for the lines' falling usage over the past 5 or so years, extrapolated straight lines into the future and so concluded "by 1973, the trend line will hit the axis - there will be zero passengers using the Bury line". Of course, nothing in nature or society goes in straight lines for very long.
I've been harbouring a suspicion that there was a "No Metro Outside London" faction at work within BR in the 50s and 60s. There appears was a spate of proposals of closures and cutbacks all at roughly the same time. The reasons given were identical in every case, and many cases, utter hogwash.

On another note: Recommended reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics

A little old by modern standards but many of the arguments are still valid, but tainted somewhat by the author's connection to the tobacco industry.
I have a copy, somewhere...
 

eldomtom2

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I've been harbouring a suspicion that there was a "No Metro Outside London" faction at work within BR in the 50s and 60s.
Though if there was, I'm not sure if it included Beeching - commuter services into non-London cities seem to be the only passenger services he thought there was a case for subsiding.
 

Mr. SW

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Though if there was, I'm not sure if it included Beeching - commuter services into non-London cities seem to be the only passenger services he thought there was a case for subsiding.
I don't think Beeching had anything to do with it. I think there was a long-standing anti-Metro ethos amongst some in several rail companies dating back to pre-grouping days, BR simply inherited it.

But providing Manchester-Bury with what were little more than rehashed 2-EPBs with different electrics and a new cab must have been a bit of a climbdown after the L&Y saloons they replaced. That and the recently introduced Manchester-Hadfield-Glossop and Wirral sliding door stocks. And even the new DMUs just coming in.

Ah, well.
 

Taunton

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I don't think Beeching had anything to do with it. I think there was a long-standing anti-Metro ethos amongst some in several rail companies dating back to pre-grouping days, BR simply inherited it.
There was. When the Tyne & Wear Metro was being built in the 1970s a worksite in Gateshead loco depot was physically prevented. Different accounts said by unions, or the regional rail management.

Even the London Underground was regularly referred to as the "Mickey Mouse trains".
 

billio

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I recently came across this photograph of a side view of a carriage on this service. This is not a view you see often and shows the open nature of the saloon in these carriages. Was that unusual at the time these carriages were built ?

Link to image to avoid copyright issues.

(This image comes from an Ordnance Survey collection of photographs of survey locations in Greater Manchester hosted on the timepix web site. A small proportion of the photographs have a railway context, some taken when a train seems to be barreling along towards the surveyor.)
 

Mr. SW

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Open layout saloons with end doors were seen as the latest thing in the early 1900s, probably aping US designs. They would have been seen as completely novel at the time both by the railway and passengers. Also abandoning outward-opening swing doors meant that the car body could be constructed to maximum width for maximum capacity: the Liverpool-Southport sets were 10 feet wide, for example.
 

Bletchleyite

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Open layout saloons with end doors were seen as the latest thing in the early 1900s, probably aping US designs. They would have been seen as completely novel at the time both by the railway and passengers. Also abandoning outward-opening swing doors meant that the car body could be constructed to maximum width for maximum capacity: the Liverpool-Southport sets were 10 feet wide, for example.

Over three metres? Interesting. The 777s have apparently been built to a maxed out loading gauge, but that's just "classic" 2.82m.
 

Merle Haggard

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Open layout saloons with end doors were seen as the latest thing in the early 1900s, probably aping US designs. They would have been seen as completely novel at the time both by the railway and passengers.

But was not this the classic tramcar layout? - although of course on a smaller scale.
 
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